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Gender inclusive language?

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tushnurse posted 3/23/2021 11:51 AM

I'm now looking for another doctor...

Pretty much the standard of care. So don't think you are not going to not find it someplace else again it's about what you Identify as so they can use appropriate language with you as to not upset or offend.
Yes people that identify as Male are having babies, not a lot, but they are.

Barcher - At some point things get excessive, like Poor Mr Potato head. I mean that's just silly, but the gender neutral language just feels weird to some of us that are older, and it will take time for it to feel normal, but it never will if we don't start sometime.

UnstuffedGiraffe posted 3/23/2021 11:56 AM

the gender neutral language just feels weird to some of us that are older, and it will take time for it to feel normal, but it never will if we don't start sometime.

So while everyone is confused can we go ahead and switch everything to metric and get it all over at once? I’m going to start yelling at the clouds now.

DragnHeart posted 3/23/2021 11:59 AM

So while everyone is confused can we go ahead and switch everything to metric and get it all over at once? I’m going to start yelling at the clouds now.

Oh please God no. Bad enough i am Canadian and we use kg, km, litres and cm. Blah!


I will always be a lbs, miles and inches woman

zebra25 posted 3/23/2021 12:37 PM

Thank you for answering my question. I honestly had not thought of that or come across that situation.

I really do appreciate all the awesome members here that make this a safe place to ask questions.

barcher144 posted 3/23/2021 14:45 PM

I hate to be so political, but I am totally in favor of the metric system.

Seriously, I am totally okay with gender inclusive language. I certainly don't have any issues with gender fluid or transgender people. In fact, I don't care who you are... I went to treat you well, whatever that means for you.

I just thought the specific example of "pregnant women" was too far.

Admittedly, I'm also annoyed at the extent of this training (it's like 5-10 hours in length). The motivation was a recent high-profile case of sexual harassment. There are many victims, many of whom came forward. The HR people at my employer recommended termination of the individual doing the harassing. The only "problem" is that the guy wasn't fired. So, now we all have to undergo training (AGAIN) because someone was a jerk and then the administration couldn't be troubled the fire the guy.

JanaGreen posted 3/23/2021 17:00 PM

Ugh barcher that is the WORST. At my old job it was the grossest most sexist pigs who joked all through the painful mandatory sexual harassment training - it's like hey assholes, YOU are why we are here, shut up and pay attention!

BraveSirRobin posted 3/23/2021 18:08 PM

Another parent of a trans kid here. I understand it's a hassle, and even my son rolls his eyes at some of the demands his friends and associates make about unusual pronouns. It's become fashionable to make a fuss over gender.

That being said, this debate reminds me of a friend who has celiac disease who told me, "I know that gluten free diets are trendy, but you have no idea how much restaurant awareness has improved my life as a person with a genuine gluten allergy." For someone with gender dysphoria, medical appointments are torture. It's hard being publicly reminded that you have the wrong body parts. It's painful to have to keep the incorrect gender on your ID card in order to get insurance approval for treatment.

One person's tolerance of a nuisance prevents another person's crushing depression. As a parent who has seen how it derails my child's success and happiness every time he's forced into the wrong gender identification, I'm deeply grateful to people who support him. My gratitude extends to those who don't feel it's really necessary but are kind enough to go with the flow.

Lionne posted 3/24/2021 08:38 AM

To me, it's inclusion, nothing more. I don't feel it shrinks the existing group; I feel it expands it.

Amen. That said, I interact with a fair number of people who choose cumulative pronouns instead of gender specific ones. I get confused ALL THE TIME. I practice when I know I'll be among them, they usually wear buttons with their preferred pronouns, and they politely correct me when I slip. I often apologize in advance that I might mess up.
Not so long ago, members of my religious group choose to make a political statement by refusing to us "you" and "your" to "superiors instead choosing "thee" and "thy" You rarely hear plain speech anymore except among older people and usually only in the family.
Language isn't static.. Language is an evolving, dynamic system. We'll adapt.

ZenMumWalking posted 3/24/2021 12:37 PM

Gender and biological sex are not the same thing. As someone pointed out above, a person can be biologically female (and therefore capable of becoming/being pregnant) but gender identify as non-female.

So no, not going to far - it can help you to understand the differences between gender and sex. And btw, neither is binary.

barcher144 posted 3/24/2021 19:49 PM

One person's tolerance of a nuisance prevents another person's crushing depression.

To be honest, this is why I play along at all.

I fully support the people who have to deal with this. I like all people and I want all people to be happy and I don't want to offend anyone.

I find the hullabaloo about language to be silly but I take the people who these terms describe... very seriously.

Bigger posted 3/25/2021 10:30 AM

In my youth not only could I get away with talking about retards, but it was also a medical term. Now I would never use that term. Same with homo, queers, faggots, Nxxxxr… all words that did not have the negative connection that they have today. These are terms that do not often make it into my vocabulary today.

I’m OK with adapting my language and behavior to show consideration to others. I might use the phrasing pregnant women when talking to a group of pregnant people and mean no insult – just like might have used the term homo with no negative intention years ago. If one in the group were to ask me to rather use pregnant people I would be OK with doing that. It would IMHO only be insulting if I insisted on using pregnant women after being asked to change.

silverhopes posted 3/27/2021 09:22 AM

Like other folks have said, I don’t see the problem in learning how to say things in a more inclusive manner. It means being more intentional with your language, and isn’t that a good thing anyway?

I think of the friends I have who are filled with joy at hearing their preferred chosen names (instead of their deadnames) and their chosen pronouns, and why wouldn’t I want as many people as possible to feel that joy - ESPECIALLY if that’s a joy they’ve been denied?

Learning new language habits takes time. For the people you love, it is ALWAYS worth it.

Jeaniegirl posted 3/27/2021 09:45 AM

I would just like to say this thread is one of the best we've ever had. It's not political, it's not religious - it's just about HUMANS and how they need to be treated. Everyone deserves dignity and respect.

Someone I know of professionally is in the process of becoming a female. His/Her educational background is so impressive and in the middle of all of this, surgeries, etc .... their updated resume says THEY earned a Phd in this and that. I love it THEY can feel free to be open without fear.

Thank you all for actually getting this.

Chili posted 3/27/2021 10:16 AM

filled with joy at hearing their preferred chosen names

I get this and it's one of the cool things about my doctors. They intentionally call me by my nickname instead of butchering my real first name that not even my parents called me.

It's somehow quite "welcoming."

As a bit of a lifelong language/grammar nerd, the pronoun thing has been difficult to retrain my brain and mouth into new habits. I fumble and get it wrong, but apologize and work to get it right. I figure it's a muscle memory thing and will become easier with practice.

sisoon posted 3/27/2021 12:00 PM

My problem is with the specific term 'pregnant people.' As far as I know, people can't get pregnant without the right biological equipment. I'm OK with 'pregnant women.'

OTOH, I think gender-neutral language is probably an advance for civilization. I think it may help get us to take each other as individuals rather than as members of a class, and I think that may be better for us all.

Like Chili, I'm a grammar nerd. One of the things that was stressed the most in my classical HS education was agreement between noun and pronoun, noun and verb, and they/them/their was incontrovertibly plural. Now I choose to get comfortable with those pronouns referring to singles.

It's not easy, but it's eminently doable.

PSTI posted 3/27/2021 12:53 PM

As far as I know, people can't get pregnant without the right biological equipment.

biological equipment /= to gender. That's the entire point.

Having a uterus/vulva does not make you a woman. Having a penis doesn't make you a man.

Jeaniegirl posted 3/27/2021 12:55 PM

I want to share a short story to add a real human concept to this thread. I'm thinking Bigger will really like this story.

My office (which I haven't really had the chance to enjoy in a few months) is located in a very neat Art's district of the city. Beautiful place. However, in the past 5 years, the adjoining neighborhood has started to have gang issues. Mainly young wanna-be gang members.

The LEO who has the walking beat in the area is a friend. A good friend and the only person I know personally who has went through complete gender changing surgery. We shall call HER Paula and HE used to be Paul. (not real name.) Anyway, Paula is a veteran of the Gulf war and tough as nails. Paula is 6-6 and weighs around 260lbs. Size 14 shoes. Paula was married and has two children. Her ex-wife and children are very supportive of the change and while divorced, they are still close.

Paula earned the respect of the gangs and they listen to her. Prior to surgery they listened and that has not changed. The little gangers started to try to go through people's cars and demanding money from the street artists and just generally being little chit heads.

I have seen Paula pick up two of these little gang members at the same time by their hoodies and sit their butts down on the sidewalk. Then she talks to them. Straight talk. She basically has succeeded in sitting so many of them on the right path, talking to them about what is going to happen if they continue their path - talking to them about education and being productive. I have never seen Paula get mean or rough because she doesn't have to. You know she's talking to some of them when you hear them saying .."Yes sir!" and then Paula saying ..."No, it's YES MAM!" and then they say it right.

I will have to say it took some getting used to, Paula stopping into my reception area for a cold drink of water or a cup of coffee, wearing nail polish, new long hair and makeup. Since I have been away from the office, I hear Paula might be retiring to work as an activist for transgender people. She will be great.

Just a real human story to add to this. I feel enriched for knowing Paul .. and then Paula.

tbkjcn posted 3/27/2021 13:16 PM

was agreement between noun and pronoun, noun and verb

Coincidently, this was a topic of a German language podcast I listen to on my morning commute. "Gender inclusive language" is a much more complicated topic in languages where nouns inherently reflect gender. So, (for example) you can't just say "the students" and say "well, that includes male students and female students, all in one word." You have to say specifically "die Studenten und Studentinnen" in order to not be accused of not being inclusive. And so on for any other noun that refers to people.... And there's all kinds of contortions that people make to shorten that, but there's nothing ideal except explicitly saying "male persons and female persons" every time you speak a sentence that refers to people. In writing, you can do things like "die Studenten/innen" but then when you have read it aloud, there's nothing really except to say the whole thing.....

I'm sure there are other ways they deal with it in other languages that have the same problem (most of them), but because when I learned French it was in the 80's we didn't worry about such things, and I never kept up with "real-world" French.

Now I choose to get comfortable with those pronouns referring to singles.

By contrast, you probably have it easy

WhatsRight posted 3/28/2021 13:32 PM

This is a great conversation.

As a really old person, I have to admit I am bumfuzzled with this issue. I cannot even fathom being one gender on the “inside” and another on the “outside”. I’m thrilled that society is at least trying to adapt cultural norms and language.

And acceptance.

As far as doctors go, I certainly understand that the situation needs to be clarified on an initial visit, because males and females have different medical needs. But why is it that they expect you to answer this question each visit? Isn’t it noted on a chart somewhere?

Sorry to be so slow on the uptake.

WornDown posted 3/29/2021 12:48 PM

Sorry, but in a medical situation/setting saying "The pregnant man" is just stupid.

What's next? The woman is waiting for her vasectomy?

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