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Finally grey rock

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EllieKMAS posted 5/13/2021 21:07 PM

So she's finding an mc. She's already done that once. Didn't stop her continuing to screw her ap. So she 'wants to work on things'. She said that before too. Didn't stop her continuing to screw her ap. She wants to stay married to her husband that takes care of all the bills and money. She wanted that before. Didn't stop her continuing to screw her ap.

Are you seeing a pattern here? Cus I sure am.

Bottom line is that she hasn't actually DONE anything to fix this; she's shown zero initiative into fixing HER or figuring out why she did this, she's shown little remorse, she's continually blame-shifted all the cheating onto you, she can't be arsed to read ONE book or article on infidelity that you haven't had to spoon feed her in nice enough terms so her wittle feewings aren't hurt... All she's given you are manipulations and pretty words. And she's just baked a lovely manipulation cake with bullshit frosting for you with this latest thing. But you don't have to eat it.

Were I in your shoes, I'd say I might be willing to do mc after she's done IC for a bare minimum of 6 months. And not some mamby pamby perel-esque IC. One that will hold her accountable in a major way. Cus until she starts working on herself, not one damn thing will lly change.

I get the allure of the pretty picture she's painting for you djk, I really do. But your future depends on you putting down the hopium and getting very real about what you're actually dealing with here. Just my 0.02.

[This message edited by EllieKMAS at 9:08 PM, May 13th (Thursday)]

J707 posted 5/13/2021 21:58 PM

The D is happening. So are living arrangements. If she really is serious (I doubt it, sorry) she can improve herself in let's say 6-12 months in IC. This isn't a MC deal. The M wasn't messed up, she is. She needs to work on herself. You will see changes or not in the time to come, probably sooner. Live separately and see the results of how much her words match her actions. Not the HB. Not her saying what you need to hear. Her actions.

ChamomileTea posted 5/13/2021 22:04 PM

I don't get it, Daniel. That woman has been awful to you, and it wasn't an accident. She knew she was being awful. And now, when you're on the cusp of getting your life back and the FREEDOM to go find someone nice, she's all over you like plaster. The money is already spent. You've already paid the lawyer and bought a new house. Why not just go through with it? You can date around for a year or two, and then, if she's pulled her head out of her hindquarters and had some treatment for her defective character, you can reevaluate. My guess is that she doesn't want to risk you actually finding out that there are decent women in the world, and I get it... what's good for the goose is good for the goose, right? If the gander gets a taste, he'll likely be outta there.

Marz posted 5/13/2021 22:11 PM

A lot of marriage counselors are rugsweeping morons. Beware!!!

If they start blaming you for her affair. WALK AWAY

[This message edited by Marz at 10:11 PM, May 13th (Thursday)]

Marz posted 5/13/2021 22:13 PM

CT gave you great advice.

Marz posted 5/13/2021 22:24 PM

STD tests should be a requirement here. You don’t know where her boyfriend has been.

leafields posted 5/13/2021 23:21 PM

Daniel, please think about this. She's a narc. She's hoovering you and future-faking. She is still trying to use you as narc supply.

She isn't being honest.

So, if you want to stay with her, then maybe you should think about an open M and what that entails.

DanielJK posted 5/14/2021 06:55 AM

You guys are giving me advice that I would give anyone else in my situation (Drs. Make the worst patients).

It sounds so good when STBXWW says it, “let’s rebuild our marriage”…I get a sense of relief that finally I may get my family back…finally I can go back to living the old life (I’m too nostalgic)….that sense of relief is fleeting…then reality sets in…I’ve seen this movie before.

The house deal is done, I’m moving forward and plan to move out, I’ll see what happens from there. I don’t know about the conciliation process, I have not spoken to my attorney yet (I sent her a 3-sentence email and she charged me like $50 to read it, geez…I’m afraid to call or email I just keep getting more charges).

STBXWW was exposed in a big way to her children right in front of her face. She said early on that she didn’t want to disappoint her daughters. Now the guilt and shame are setting in and she is grasping at straws. It still makes me wonder…is she doing this to be able to say she tried and “…see we just don’t get along any more…it’s not because I cheated, it’s because we are just no longer compatible.” The more I think about this the more I feel I need to get out.

Is that the wife I want? Someone who is now clinging because she was exposed? No. My head knows I want and deserve someone who loves me. This is a very sick relationship.

And the counseling…I know you are right about IC. She doesn’t see the path of destruction she left behind her, she doesn’t see the hurt, she doesn’t look at AP and see a co-conspirator in that destruction and hurt. She likely still pines for him. I know I can’t live like this, it’s my head and heart battling again. The last MC was a DISASTER. For me it would be just going through the motions. I certainly would not even justify the counselor’s existence if he/she started rugsweeping, I would walk out. I still don’t know if I will even get to that point.

I don’t want to live in limbo…or I believe there is a reference here to the “lethal plane of flatness”(?) I don’t want to be there either. I see folks posting on here 10 years after dday saying how miserable they are…I don’t want that…I want to be happy, it’s been a fucking year of misery I want to be happy again.

Your advice as usual is sound, irrefutable. Stay tuned, I have a court date next week. It’s an important one, a decision on conciliation has to be made before then. Closing is the following week, just ordered some furniture for delivery…movers are still scheduled for the first week of June.

Marz posted 5/14/2021 07:29 AM

At some point when they slap you in the face 3 or 4 times you should learn to duck.

And the counseling…I know you are right about IC. She doesn’t see the path of destruction she left behind her, she doesn’t see the hurt, she doesn’t look at AP and see a co-conspirator in that destruction and hurt.

No remorse. You know what that means.

At this point you are the one keeping yourself in limbo.

[This message edited by Marz at 7:33 AM, May 14th (Friday)]

J707 posted 5/14/2021 08:20 AM

And the last time they had sex was 4/16...just 3 weeks ago...I'm now one year from dday and now she wants to talk!

Now 4 weeks ago. 3 weeks ago they were texting about spooning. Probably still are. She hasn't had some sort of awakening. Her words mean nothing. Good luck on the court date. Keep marching forward!

grubs posted 5/14/2021 08:54 AM

What does this new arrangement do that R after D doesn't? It makes no sense at all to stop now and you know it. If you are both willing and able you can work it out after D. Get the D done. Once that's done go to IC for both. Date her if you wish. Spend time together. I'd wait on the MC until both of you have had a month or so IC.

asc1226 posted 5/14/2021 10:18 AM

Dan, a powerball ticket is two bucks. If you want to play the lottery I’ll gladly venmo you $2. The lottery you’re considering charges a different currency. Time. There’s no person or power on this earth that can give you even one second back once you’ve spent it.

Go through with the D. If, after your WW has faced that consequence, she still wants to rebuild your marriage, fine. You can watch and see what actions she takes. If she sees that as the end and doesn’t think there’s any point in trying then I submit that you have the measure of how willing she is to change.

Marz posted 5/14/2021 12:13 PM

And the last time they had sex was 4/16...just 3 weeks ago...I'm now one year from dday and now she wants to talk!

Yeah, I’d believe this. Surely she wouldn’t lie.

ChamomileTea posted 5/14/2021 13:10 PM

I don’t want to live in limbo…or I believe there is a reference here to the “lethal plane of flatness”(?) I don’t want to be there either. I see folks posting on here 10 years after dday saying how miserable they are…I don’t want that…I want to be happy, it’s been a fucking year of misery I want to be happy again.

You're going to do what you're going to do, and that's your right, of course. Just let me hit on this one point above.

I'm a little more than six years out, still with my WH, mostly content on a day to day basis. I don't hurt anymore. I consider myself healed. But... in terms of the "plain of lethal flatness", what I've noticed is that some people go through it, come out on the other side, and there's still love left in the relationship. In fact, the relationship appears to improve from there. For others though, the love doesn't survive. If you ask me, respect is the hardest piece to recover and sometimes, no matter how much you want to, you just can't find a way to look at your WS the same way. Mine disappointed me after R was well-established by allowing the re-connection we had made to drift. So, it's not even about what happened at the time of the betrayal, it's about what's happening now. Maybe I'm tougher to please. Maybe I'm less inclined to be understanding. Whatever it is, I'm not "in love" anymore. There's love, but it's familial at best. There's no passion in it, no hope for something more, no grief even that it's gone. It's just "meh".

Right now, in this first year, your feelings are NORMAL. When the bond between you and your spouse has been ripped apart by betrayal and adultery, you yearn for the return of the status quo. You love that spouse more than you ever have. You pine for them more than you could have imagined. But those feelings are temporary. It's not until after you've achieved a good measure of healing that you can really assess what's left. Imagine a big roulette wheel that spins for YEARS, and you don't know when the ball will stop or whether it's going to be on red or black, love or unlove. Of course, people start down the path to R or D because no one is going to wait that long to see what's what. But in consideration of all the outlay you've got toward this divorce, I feel like it's only fair to let you know that your feeling are subject to change over the course of the next few years. That desperate need to return to the marriage isn't going to last. It's just grief and withdrawal. It says literally nothing about what you can expect later on.

Anyway, I know you'll do what's best for you. Just remember that your feelings are going to be in flux for a very long time.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 1:13 PM, May 14th (Friday)]

BetrayedGamer posted 5/14/2021 13:20 PM

Some will say to never attempt R with a cheater. I totally get that logic. Other people have attempted R with a serial cheater. That I don't get.

I look at it this way, if it was done once, and the person is truly sorry, willing to NC the AP, I say give them a chance. But you have to be convinced the regret is sincere and full. If you can't feel that way, and it's just a hopium ride, then R probably won't work.

Think about something you've done in the past, that you regret fully, and would never do again. I believe a cheater can be there as well, however I'd imagine that's also something rare. If they are begging for R, you are in control. You set the ground rules. If they don't agree to those, then they aren't 100 percent in on the deal.

gmc94 posted 5/14/2021 13:50 PM

That desperate need to return to the marriage isn't going to last. It's just grief and withdrawal. It says literally nothing about what you can expect later on.
IME, this is SPOT ON.

Bottom line to me is that you are considering R with someone who has shown - VERY RECENTLY - that they are not (by the longest of long fucking shots) worthy of R. And that idea - of trying to R with someone not worthy of that - may very well stem from the grief, withdrawal, and "desperate need" CT so aptly describes.

EllieKMAS posted 5/14/2021 14:44 PM

I look at it this way, if it was done once, and the person is truly sorry, willing to NC the AP, I say give them a chance. But you have to be convinced the regret is sincere and full. If you can't feel that way, and it's just a hopium ride, then R probably won't work.
I think this is the key point. There are indeed instances of R happening. If you read around and look at posts from WS's on these forums that have successfully R'd you can start to spot patterns that they all kinda stick to.

Some of those aspects of WS's who have successfully R'd...

They DO:
-go and STAY NC forever and ever from their AP
-display sincere remorse
-show openness and honesty and they don't keep secrets from their BS
-show willingness and active engagement in discussions about the A
-support their BS's healing in ANY way they possibly can
-seek out resources from anywhere they can to understand their actions and to understand the damage they have done to their BS/M/families - this includes (but is not limited to) joining SI, reading every book they can get their hands on, listening to podcasts, reading blogs, etc. There are SO many resources out there that are free for the taking. And side note: they will also read and consider things their BS wants/needs them to without having to be constantly nagged and prompted to do so.
-get into IC or seek out IC ON THEIR OWN to help them deal with the fallout from the infidelity
-own their shit and the consequences of their decisions, even if that means getting divorced, because they understand that sometimes that is what their BS needs in order to heal.
-show initiative in dealing with the A

They do not:
-blame-shift and do tit-for-tat mental gymnastics to justify why they have cheated on their spouse
-STAY IN CONTACT AND CONTINUE TO ENGAGE IN SEXUAL BEHAVIORS WITH THEIR AP
-continue to lie and be dishonest in their actions
-avoid uncomfortable discussions about the A
-deny their BS their feelings and room to process the A

I want you to really think about that. What of ANY of that list has your ww done? What on the do not list HAS she done?

Really in my time on SI, the WS's who have successfully R'd, and even the ones that have ended up D'd but stick around here - the bottom line is that they were willing to do literally ANYTHING for their BS in order to fix things.

ETA: True, sometimes it takes a WS a bit to 'get there'... but the truth of the matter is your ww has had a YEAR and hasn't even TRIED. She continues to blame YOU for this. She continued contact and having sex with her AP.... She has not even started to remove her head from her ass yet, and frankly doesn't really seem to care to try.

Like I said in my previous post, man I get the allure DJK. I get it 1000%. I did it too. But until and unless SHE is willing to do the work and start to fix HER, not one diddly damn thing will change. She can paint all the pretty pictures she wants, but they are an illusion unless she actually works to make them a reality. I know how hard that is to see and realize.

[This message edited by EllieKMAS at 2:52 PM, May 14th (Friday)]

gmc94 posted 5/14/2021 14:58 PM

That's a great list, EllieK... I wish we had a bookmark function!

HalfTime2017 posted 5/14/2021 15:06 PM

Dan, its your choice and I think you can see the board has your back. Really, we all have zero skin in this game of yours, but that is also precisely why you're getting the purest of advice from the folks here.

YOu want to see if your WW has really changed? Tell her you're going to Divorce her, and you will both build starting from scratch. No ties, nothing.

See how she reacts to that. Her reactions to rebuilding from the ground up, with no ties is a true testament to her absolute willingness to slug it out in R, WITH YOU. Makes not difference if you rebuild after you sign the divorce papers.

What I think might happen is, you're immediately going to see a different side of her. One, where you Narc mask slips immediately and will turn nasty b/c you didn't give in to her way. And that my friend, is how you get to really tell if she is all in, or all about herself.

All the folks here, they can't all be wrong. But your WW, she's already slipped what, 4-5 times??? Look at the pattern. Just 4 weeks ago she was screwing someone else, 3 weeks ago she was texting him about spooning. You don't know whats been said in the last couple of weeks. A full year to change and she didnt, but now that you're 2 weeks ago, she's suddenly WOKE? I have my doubts, but again, its your life.

Maybe go over to the R forum and start asking and reading over there. Its no easy party in that forum. Go read for yourself.

EllieKMAS posted 5/14/2021 15:16 PM

I wanted to add here too... there are PLENTY of WS's that have D'd on this forum in my time here.

But guess what.

The WS's that get it, the ones that are 'woke', are still here doing their work. They are still working on themselves because THEY want to be and do better for themselves. Their working isn't contingent on them staying married. Just a few - JBWD, LifeDestroyer, foreverlabeled, Neanderthal... those are the ones that immediately spring to mind but I'm sure there are others too. But all these posters are D'd or on their way to D and they are still digging in to their shit, still working to better themselves, still taking accountability for their choices.

If your ww is actually serious, then she should do that work whether you D or not.

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