Newest Member: Withoutloveinthedream

Divorce/Separation :
I am divorced!

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Tigersrule77 ( member #47339) posted at 3:44 PM on Friday, April 30th, 2021

barcher, i'm glad to hear that things seemed to have calmed down for you. I'm very sorry to hear of the alienation issues. I wish I had some advice for you on that issue, but I don't. It's not something I had to deal with. Hopefully your daughters will be able to see the love you have for them and the efforts that you make, and see through what their mother says. Hopefully some other can help you with this.

posts: 1538   ·   registered: Mar. 27th, 2015   ·   location: Maryland
id 8655445
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 barcher144 (original poster member #54935) posted at 1:37 AM on Wednesday, May 5th, 2021

A mini-update.

The "pre-mediation" meeting was today. It was both lawyers and the appellate mediator.

My attorney described it as nothing major except that the appellate mediator had read the file.

My attorney reported to me that the mediator told her, offline/one-on-one, that she doesn't understand how opposing counsel plans on arguing against our case.

This latter paragraph means two things: (1) the mediator agrees with my attorney when she described it as the most clear-cut case for appeal in her 20 years of practicing law, and (2) there is absolutely zero indication that opposing counsel has any interest in settling.

How did I end up in such a bizarro legal world?

Me: BH, age 48
Her: WS, age 45 (multiple EAs and PAs)
D-Day: August 30, 2016

Diagnosed with depression in December 2016, which was primarily caused by my xWW's affair and associated emotional abuse.

posts: 5120   ·   registered: Aug. 31st, 2016
id 8656735
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grubs ( member #77165) posted at 2:30 AM on Wednesday, May 5th, 2021


How did I end up in such a bizarro legal world?


Attorney are employed by their clients. They can tell their clients that they don't stand a snowballs chance in hell on winning, but if the client says try anyway the have to as long as they are not knowingly violating any laws by doing so. Your ex is in it to just annoy you regardless of how much money she wastes. At least now it's not marital funds paying the bills.

[This message edited by grubs at 2:31 AM, Wednesday, May 5th]

posts: 792   ·   registered: Jan. 21st, 2021
id 8656751
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gmc94 ( member #62810) posted at 7:29 AM on Wednesday, May 5th, 2021

What Grubs said... AND

there are also crummy lawyers out there who have no problem running up a bill on a bullshite case. It's hard to know which (or both... or neither) is going on.

Could be that he's egging on your WW with promises of a good outcome that is more like 20% vs the 70% the lawyer is selling. Unfortunately, there are plenty of those types around.

Putting your case in the hands of a judge is ALWAYS a roll of the dice, but it's usually not unrealistic to see pretty good odds one way or another.

IMO, the good news is that while you had to kiss a few frogs, you seem to have found yourself what sounds like a pretty solid attorney.

M >25yrs/grown kids
DD1 1994 ONS prostitute
DD2 2018 exGF1 10+yrEA & 10yrPA... + exGF2 EA forever & "made out" 2017
9/18 WH hung himself- died but revived

It's rude to say "I love you" with a mouthful of lies

posts: 3441   ·   registered: Feb. 22nd, 2018
id 8656781
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 barcher144 (original poster member #54935) posted at 1:50 PM on Wednesday, May 5th, 2021

Attorney are employed by their clients.

there are also crummy lawyers out there who have no problem running up a bill on a bullshite case. It's hard to know which (or both... or neither) is going on.

This pretty much sums up my view.

I literally sent xWW an email explaining the main part of my appeal case in very simple terms, with a note that we aren't sure if her lawyer explains the law to her or not. As a minimum, I figured that comment would get back to her lawyer and effectively be a way to needle her.

The thing is... their entire strategy has been "give us more" from the beginning, without any rationale under the law. After trial, the attorneys submitted a written document explaining how they think the judge should rule and they write it from the perspective of the judge (i.e., as if the attorney was the judge).

My attorney's version of this document was about 15 pages in length and it had detailed explanations and legal citations for how we felt the judge should rule. Her attorney's version was only about 7 pages in length.

After read opposing counsel's briefs, I asked my attorney whether or not it seemed "thin." Her response was priceless; she said:

The weird thing is that it involved no law. This is a court. We had a trial.

IMO, the good news is that while you had to kiss a few frogs, you seem to have found yourself what sounds like a pretty solid attorney.

Yes, I am very pleased with my attorney. She has made a few mistakes here and there, but no one is perfect. She's always professional and genuine. And, most importantly... she knows the actual details of my case... meaning, she's invested in it.

Me: BH, age 48
Her: WS, age 45 (multiple EAs and PAs)
D-Day: August 30, 2016

Diagnosed with depression in December 2016, which was primarily caused by my xWW's affair and associated emotional abuse.

posts: 5120   ·   registered: Aug. 31st, 2016
id 8656810
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Catwoman ( member #1330) posted at 1:59 PM on Wednesday, May 5th, 2021

I literally sent xWW an email explaining the main part of my appeal case in very simple terms, with a note that we aren't sure if her lawyer explains the law to her or not. As a minimum, I figured that comment would get back to her lawyer and effectively be a way to needle her.

Still at this, are you?

Seriously, why would you do this? She has an attorney. Said attorney is supposed to represent her. It's not your problem if that isn't the case.

You're going to have to co-parent or parallel parent with this person for the rest of your life. Why continue to act this way, as it only makes it more difficult for all involved and it certainly isn't the "grey rock" method for dealing with someone who has narcissistic issues.

LET. IT. GO.

You have what appears to be, from your postings, a good case for having the judgment amended. Let the lawyers do lawyer things and concentrate on your life and parenting your children instead of ways to try and get under your xWW's or her attorney's skin.

Living well is the best revenge.

Cat

FBS: Married 20 years, 2 daughters 27 and 24. Divorced by the grace of GOD.
D-Days: 2/23/93; 10/11/97; 3/5/03
Ex & OW Broke up 12-10
"An erection does not count as personal growth."

posts: 32945   ·   registered: Apr. 5th, 2003   ·   location: Massachusetts
id 8656815
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Tigersrule77 ( member #47339) posted at 2:47 PM on Wednesday, May 5th, 2021

Catwoman,

Still at this, are you?

barcher stated that he sent XWW an email explaining his position. I interpreted that he was doing that to try to encourage her to consider settling, rather than spend money on attorney's fees (and save himself a few bucks). Not unreasonable.

So he chose to take a shot at the opposing attorney who has said terrible things about him in court, manipulated the courts and cost him loads of money. I don't fault him for that. From his description, he didn't say anything inflammatory.

barcher seems to be in a good place and in a position of strength, trying to potentially minimize the stress of this situation. And you show up to criticize him again.

LET. IT. GO.

posts: 1538   ·   registered: Mar. 27th, 2015   ·   location: Maryland
id 8656825
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 barcher144 (original poster member #54935) posted at 6:41 PM on Wednesday, May 5th, 2021

Dear Catwoman:

Please stay out of my threads.

Thank you!

barcher144

Me: BH, age 48
Her: WS, age 45 (multiple EAs and PAs)
D-Day: August 30, 2016

Diagnosed with depression in December 2016, which was primarily caused by my xWW's affair and associated emotional abuse.

posts: 5120   ·   registered: Aug. 31st, 2016
id 8656893
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BobPar ( member #62993) posted at 7:00 PM on Thursday, May 6th, 2021

A late Congratulations Barcher!

posts: 538   ·   registered: Oct. 9th, 2016   ·   location: MI
id 8657225
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homewrecked2011 ( member #34678) posted at 1:29 PM on Friday, May 7th, 2021

I’m confused as to why you sent your xww an email.

I think your atty isn’t going to appreciate that at all, especially since you put your comments in writing. Now your xww is going to realize she might lose the case with her current atty being so horrible and hire a new one. A good one.

Anytime I tried to warn my xh, he psssed the info to his atty and they made a new strategy.

I really want you to win this case. Hopefully you will!

Sometimes He calms the storm. Sometimes He lets the storm rage, but calms His child. Dday 12/19/11I went to an attorney and had him served. Shocked the hell out of him, with D papers, I'm proud to say!D final10/30/2012Me-55

posts: 5367   ·   registered: Jan. 30th, 2012
id 8657482
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Bigger ( Guide #8354) posted at 2:00 PM on Friday, May 7th, 2021

I agree with the poster you requested leave the room…

It’s a bit like an NFL team sending the College team their playbook to explain why the pro’s will win the game no matter what. It might enable the college team to disturb an otherwise perfect play.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 9935   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
id 8657489
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ArkLaMiss ( member #14918) posted at 12:44 AM on Saturday, May 8th, 2021

I, too, think the best strategy right now is dead silence. Better to blindside her than to tip her off. She's not a reasonable person. You know that. That will be her undoing. As for you, just keep everything close to the vest and get the popcorn and drinks ready.

Good luck and keep us updated. We're all rooting for you!

[This message edited by ArkLaMiss at 6:44 PM, May 7th (Friday)]

Just HOW stupid do you think I am, exactly?

posts: 1720   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2007
id 8657800
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sisoon ( Guide #31240) posted at 4:13 PM on Saturday, May 8th, 2021

barcher, friend, you think you've helped yourself by explaining your legal strategy and telling your XW to get better legal representation?

What is your goal? How did your email do anything but sabotage yourself?

This is business, not a game. The goal is money and convenience, not to feel less bad about yourself than about your XW.

You seem to be stuck in the game of NIGYSOB (searchable). There are better ways to handle being betrayed by a narcissist, and you used to know and use them.

Step back. As someone else said, act in your own best interests - and be kind to yourself.

[This message edited by sisoon at 4:35 PM, May 8th (Saturday)]

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex ap
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
You don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 26161   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
id 8657862
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 barcher144 (original poster member #54935) posted at 10:53 PM on Monday, May 10th, 2021

I’m confused as to why you sent your xww an email.

I think your atty isn’t going to appreciate that at all, especially since you put your comments in writing.

The message was sent to my xWW with my attorney's recommendation. By the way, this message was sent in February.

The problem is not in the realm of "winning" or "losing"... it's about getting a reasonable resolution of my divorce under the law.

There is no great strategy here. It's an appeal, which has very limited scope. We really cannot challenge any of the decisions or ruling that the judge made unless they explicitly violate the law (either case law or statute).

For financial and personal cost reasons, I would prefer a settlement to winning an appeal. That was the purpose of the email... to trigger a settlement. (to look at it differently, if I spent $7500 on an appeal and xWW spends $7500 on an appeal... then my kids get $0 out of those $15,000).

To give you some more background, when my attorney initially tried to settle with opposing counsel... their offer for a settlement was for me to pay $30,000 immediately, which is actually worth more than the $35,000 that I am scheduled to pay over the next 7 years.

My attorney's theory is that opposing counsel is not explaining the law to xWW. That is the motivation behind the email to xWW. My attorney cannot speak to xWW, but I can. So, I did.

To explain the case again, the judge ruled on my income, xWW's income, my reasonable budget, and xWW's reasonable budget.

After that, to be eligible for alimony, xWW needs to demonstrate that her income is insufficient to cover her monthly budget and that my income exceeds my monthly budget. Meaning, she has to demonstrate that she has a need for alimony AND I have the ability to pay alimony.

Once the judge rules on incomes and budgets, It's a little complicated because you have to take into account income taxes at both the State and Federal levels, which is why I had a CPA testify at trial. Regardless, my appeal is based on the simply fact that xWW's income exceeds her budget. That is, she does not have a need for alimony and therefore she should not receive alimony.

It's really that simple. That's why my attorney described it as "the strongest case for appeal in her 20 years of practicing family law" when she called me to tell me about the judge's decision on February 1. This is also why the appellate mediator is privately conceding to my attorney that she has no idea how opposing counsel hopes to prevail.

barcher, friend, you think you've helped yourself by explaining your legal strategy and telling your XW to get better legal representation?

There was a chance that my email would trigger xWW to settle and/or find new legal counsel. That chance would have meant a less costly appeal and/or a settlement. That is, the best case scenario would have been better.

The worst case scenario is that they are digging in their heels and continuing to fight. Sending that email did not help them in any way. It's not like our appeal is a surprise.

This is business, not a game.

Somehow, y'all seem to think that I am appealing out of emotion. I'm not.

If I was driven by emotion, then I would be trying to get more custody of my kids. I've been told that I have a very slim chance of success in doing that and it will be at a high cost (i.e., high risk, low reward). Instead, my appeal is low risk (i.e., not very expensive) and high reward (i.e., I am very likely to win).

Also, my attorney knows very well that there is a likelihood that I will withdraw my appeal if mediation fails. Given that xWW has already moved in with her boyfriend, she gifted me a plan B. Even if I lose the appeal, I will be back in court in February 2022 saying that xWW is should no longer receive alimony because she's living with her romantic partner (i.e., they bought a house together).

Me: BH, age 48
Her: WS, age 45 (multiple EAs and PAs)
D-Day: August 30, 2016

Diagnosed with depression in December 2016, which was primarily caused by my xWW's affair and associated emotional abuse.

posts: 5120   ·   registered: Aug. 31st, 2016
id 8658318
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Tigersrule77 ( member #47339) posted at 1:13 PM on Tuesday, May 11th, 2021

this is not meant to insult anyone, but I feel there is a lot of criticism at OP. I don't think he has done anything unreasonable. he stated several times in the thread that he was considering just living with the original judgement, though flawed, and only pursued the appeal after careful judgement (which was encouraged by the folks here). IMO, he seemed almost reluctant, because he wanted to put this behind him and move on with his life.

I read the email to XWW as his attempt to expedite a resolution. i.e. if they can reach a simple settlement, it might cost him a few bucks, but allows him to close the book on this and move on. I think most people here would encourage this.

So he made a comment about XWW's attorney. So what? From his description, this particular person assisted his XWW's attempt to destroy him. I think he handled it quite well.

I suppose we are just seeing one of the great things about this site, which is that there are a lot of different experiences and opinions. Which allows the OP to learn a lot and see those differing viewpoints.

posts: 1538   ·   registered: Mar. 27th, 2015   ·   location: Maryland
id 8658429
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WhoTheBleep ( member #49504) posted at 3:53 PM on Tuesday, May 11th, 2021

Barcher, I understand why you sent the email. You are reasonable person, exww is not. Stick with attorneys only. Do not tip your hand or give her any extra attention/aka feed the beast. Any attempt to convince her to change her path is the equivalent of you running on a hamster wheel. It's incredibly frustrating. If anyone understands this, it is me. (((Barcher)))

I believe we have two lives: the one we learn with, and the one we live with after that. --The Natural

posts: 4372   ·   registered: Sep. 6th, 2015   ·   location: USA
id 8658479
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ZenMumWalking ( member #25341) posted at 4:27 PM on Tuesday, May 11th, 2021

Thank you for explaining this barcher, but I do not understand why so many posters jumped to the worst possible conclusion.

You are the one who is in your situation, and you have made it abundantly clear that you are carefully following your L's advice.

Oh yeah, and that XNPDWW is a SICKO!!!!!

I hope it all goes your way.

((((barcher))))

Me (BS), Him (WH): late-50's
3 DS: 26, 25, 22
M: 30+ (19 1/2 at Dday)
Dday: Dec 2008
Wanted R, not gonna happen
Used to be DeadMumWalking, doing better now

posts: 8408   ·   registered: Aug. 28th, 2009   ·   location: EU
id 8658490
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 barcher144 (original poster member #54935) posted at 7:32 PM on Tuesday, May 11th, 2021

Thank you for explaining this barcher, but I do not understand why so many posters jumped to the worst possible conclusion.

I have a theory:

There are certain people who just naturally jump to the worst possible conclusion. I won't name them, but you can guess who they are (and they don't do it ALL THE TIME, either).

After that, other folks read what the worst-case-jumper writes and mistake their guesses with the actual facts and it snow balls from there.

In therapy news, I am working on limiting my knee-jerk, slap'em back even harder than they slapped me responses. I'm not perfect, but I am doing better. This thread is a good opportunity to practice.

Me: BH, age 48
Her: WS, age 45 (multiple EAs and PAs)
D-Day: August 30, 2016

Diagnosed with depression in December 2016, which was primarily caused by my xWW's affair and associated emotional abuse.

posts: 5120   ·   registered: Aug. 31st, 2016
id 8658550
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 barcher144 (original poster member #54935) posted at 7:38 PM on Tuesday, May 11th, 2021

I understand why you sent the email.

Stick with attorneys only.

Yep. I communicate with xWW as little as I can. No commentary beyond facts.

She ridiculously tells me that pulling my car into her driveway and parking there for an hour is a threat? I respond with my GPS data showing that I was there for only a few minutes, not an hour. No further commentary, although I no longer pull my car into her driveway per her request.

She asks that I take my son to his sport-game this weekend because she's busy with a different kid? I respond simply with "yes" and I give her the time that I will arrive and I ask if I can take him to lunch after the game is over. I refrain from pointing out that she called me a neglectful parent in court and during our custody evaluation because I could not attend two different kids' events at the same time in two different locations.

Any attempt to convince her to change her path is the equivalent of you running on a hamster wheel.

Yes, this is largely true. That said, there was no risk in explaining the basis for my appeal to her. It's hardly something secret and I was hoping there was a chance that she could be convinced to settle. In the end, I wasted about 10 minutes of time in writing her an email. That was my only loss from my "failed" email.

[This message edited by barcher144 at 1:39 PM, May 11th (Tuesday)]

Me: BH, age 48
Her: WS, age 45 (multiple EAs and PAs)
D-Day: August 30, 2016

Diagnosed with depression in December 2016, which was primarily caused by my xWW's affair and associated emotional abuse.

posts: 5120   ·   registered: Aug. 31st, 2016
id 8658558
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grubs ( member #77165) posted at 8:08 PM on Tuesday, May 11th, 2021

There are certain people who just naturally jump to the worst possible conclusion.


We all see life around us through lenses forged from our life experiences. How people respond is a function of those lenses and you can learn much about the respondents and their past from those responses. That's why the recommendation is to consider the replies on SI and take what works for you.

For me, I had about as good a WW as you could so my first reactions is not to consider the worst intentions of waywards. My advice on your wayward wouldn't be as useful as some others who had more difficult ones.

posts: 792   ·   registered: Jan. 21st, 2021
id 8658565
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