SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

This is going to feel a little blunt, but please know it is only coming from the most sincere of places.

She must have you welded around her finger for her to be able to convince you that having an affair is beneficial to your marriage in any way. When she looks at you she must see "Welcome" stamped across your forehead my man, because that is some straight up doormat behavior.

Please ask yourself why you are okay with being treated this way.

Tell the OM's wife. There is no excuse not to. The "well her life is really none of my business" is a cop-out. Her life IS your business now because you're actively participating in her husband's affair with your wife my dude. By keeping it a secret for them WHILE THE A IS HAPPENING you're almost no better than her cheating husband, sad to say.

Please put your well-being and your children's well-being first.

[This message edited by WonderingGhost at 8:31 PM, Saturday, March 25th]

Open Marriage Vs. Coparenting Roommates:

Open Marriages are usually not well-born from infidelity. They become a maladapted variation of an Open Marriage, the result of waywardly unilateral action followed by compromise under duress of the other partner. 92% of Open Marriages fail-even when not born from infidelity**

**This is a widely touted statistic, but I was unable to find original source study.

Recent data from the University of Rochester, presented by Science Daily, shows that groups of partially open or one-sided non-monogamous relationships failed in 60% of cases.

Partners who are in successful open marriages arrive at their arrangements via a truly mutual bilateral agreement. They usually already have a healthy marriage and open the marriage, not to fix and, especially, not to SAVE the marriage, but rather to complement it. They keep certain intimate emotional and physical aspects of their marriage strictly exclusive to the marriage. Boundaries are extremely important, well established and enforced. Successful couples have established: a healthy level of emotional intimacy-excellent, deep, honest, frequent communication; are very secure with self and spouse, self confident and their relationship is well adjusted, actualized and carefully adapted to their mutual needs.

Does this describe your current relationship and partner?

If your partner is already selfish, not respecting boundaries, not concerned for your wellbeing and happiness, not honestly communicating-lying, keeping secrets, then your WW is not a good candidate for Open Marriage and OM will only exacerbate the problems.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 9:45 PM, Saturday, March 25th]

****REMINDER****

Please post respectfully and within guidelines. If the subject matter of this thread is triggering, the wise course of action is to step away. Shaming or demeaning post will not be tolerated.

Ozzy,

You sound like a genuine, thoughtful open-minded person.

I just want to first address the point about her going off you because you tried to hard. Utter nonsense. Enthusiasm is fun, and attractive when both people are committed to each other.
All bets are off if one person is fantasizing about someone else. Of course we are all strangers but I can say with some conviction it’s probably not you.

We have all been in some combination or permutation of your situation. It’s awful but the only way out is through. I get that you sympathize with your wife, and don’t want to police her and would rather do what you think of as the noble thing and let her be free to explore rather than hide and lie. You might think that this manifests as respect. I understand…

But! She is NOT taking care of you. At all. She is not taking care of the couple or the family.
So, act accordingly.
Take care of you.
Take care of your kids.

Listen to what we all wish we had known: the best chance of saving the marriage will be achieved by leaving the marriage.

She may wake up and see how much she has to lose. And if she doesn’t that’s good information for you.

All the best.

How are you holding up, Ozzy? Do you have any specific questions or thoughts you need to unload?

Morning all.

Well that was quite a weekend. Firstly apologies for going a bit funny there, I felt a bit under attack but I do understand that everyone's heart is in the right place. Reading all the responses has given me a much more objective view of the situation which I have definitely taken on board (read on...) The following will be a jumble which matches my brain! Sorry if I repeat previous points I have made.

I should quickly get 2 trigger warnings out of the way. Thanks to the mods for their message, it makes me feel more justified in saying these. Sorry for those that can't accept these but it is the reality of my situation.

1. I won't be telling the other wife. There are a few reasons for this: a) She is blissfully unaware. Loads of people have affairs and the cheated partner never has a clue that it happened, and carry on living their happy life. In some ways I wish I was one of those, but I know I would have found out or suspected by now so am glad it is out in the open. But I don't want to blow up her life for something that might never become a problem for her. b) This one will sound crazy to a lot of you but again, if my wife went behind my back I would never know. Her honesty has made this a better situation than it could have been. So to betray that honesty isn't something I want to do. It would be me going behind her back when at no point has she gone behind mine.

2. I won't be giving an ultimatum (at this point anyway). One of the things I love about my wife is her determination. She has achieved a lot in her life and telling her she can't do something is not the way to get her to stop. She needs to WANT to stop. Read on on this one though.

Anyway with those out of the way, if you wish to continue reading, please do. For those who asked about all the Esther Perel stuff, that was my doing. I have sought out podcasts and literature to help me understand how she could get to this position, and it has actually really helped me. Doesn't mean I like it! But I can understand it. I would also love to just escape from normal life, but I don't because it would hurt her. She got herself to the position where she couldn't help herself anymore. I don't agree with getting to that and think she was completely naive to allow herself to get there but we are where we are. I think this was going to happen no matter what, which is why I reluctantly gave my blessing.

As I said earlier getting an objective view on all this has really changed my mindset. I had already told her I was done talking and feeling numb. I have read all the "180" stuff, but I don't feel like I am seeking to actively do that, it has just naturally happened. When I headed out for the comedy night I could tell she was feeling weird that I was going out and she said the next morning she missed me. I wasn't going to chat but she started saying how she wasn't sure about how she felt about it all. I said that I have been thinking objectively about it all and even though she thinks this guy is great (and I am sure he is generally a nice guy otherwise she wouldn't have gone for him), he is objectively an Ahole for what he is doing to his family, and for how he intruded on her life giving her the opportunity to end up where we are. I said what the 2 of them are doing is awful. I reiterated to her that I am not going to begrudge her what has happened to this point, as I did agree to it. I did say that using my "blessing" as affirmation was a little delusional, I said many times that I would rather she didn't, it was more that if this is inevitable I would prefer it is honest rather than behind my back (which I maintain, I still think I am in a better position that someone who has had their partner lie to them the whole time). But while I don't begrudge her to this point, I reserve the right to change my mind and I am not happy about this. She said don't make me cut it off yet, and I said you need to do what you need to do, but know that this is hurting me more than I have ever been hurt, and way more than I thought was going to be the case when I gave my "blessing".

I know this will be hard to take for some readers, but in the sidelines of this we have a family holiday booked next Friday where we can actually have fun as a family for the first time in a while. This is a good opportunity for us to connect with each other, with the kids and so blowing things up now won't help anything. I hope that can make sense. And as I said earlier, if I give that ultimatum (at least now) it won't achieve anything other than her resenting me. Also please remember she wouldn't have ended up in this position if it wasn't for certain things I have done. I take no responsibility for her actions, don't worry, but I do take some (lots of) responsibility for our relationship getting to this point.

Last night I think the enormity of the situation hit her. Up until this weekend I have been in "pick me" mode, basically because it has all been so raw. But this weekend I have been in a much more numb, "well it is up to you how you want this to go" mood which I think has made her realise that maybe this isn't all worth it. I don't think the reality of the affair is as romantic as she hoped it would be either, and I think the objective points I made hit home. She is feeling stupid as well as I was decent enough to not be jealous about her seeing him and has screwed up by not stepping away when her feelings grew. I think it also hit home when I said about how if I was him, I would've played it EXACTLY the way he did. Not be interested in anything more (I do believe that probably was the case for him as well), but just having dinner with an attractive woman and then bide your time and see if she develops feelings. Well played sir, well played. But nothing I could have done about that as we are not jealous people so me telling her not to see him would've been weird.

I feel like I had more in my brain but that'll do for now. I think the overall situation is that I have given her a lot to think about, I want us to have our family holiday together so we can see how we feel about each other without talking about this all the time (not just how she feels for me but also how I feel about her having had all this happen) and then we will see what happens next. She wants to meet up with him to have a proper chat about where on earth this could lead as well (and yes, I believe her when she says it would be just a chat this time, she hasn't lied to about this at all). I asked her do you see this going on in 5 years and she said no. So I gave the heroin analogy, how I realised (thanks to people here) that feeding you more heroin is just going to make you more addicted. Surely best to just cut off the supply and then try to recover?

Welcome any thoughts (negative is fair enough, I will be more thick skinned than the other day!)

Oz

Sounds wishy washy and bound to fail mate.

I really hope you rethink about telling OBS. You are complicit in the A and allowing her WH to abuse her. You're robbing OBS of the opportunity to base her life choices on the truth and robbing her of her agency. Her WH is lying to her and betraying her. She may know that something is off but not what.

Please take care of yourself.

You are trying to maneuver this rationally when in reality, it’s almost all emotional. At some point you are probably going to feel a great deal of anger because harm has been done to you.

Your wife is acting like a 15 yr old wanting to date and stay out later and you, as the parent, need to give her permission. Do you see how damaging that is to both of you? She can’t maintain this euphoria forever and you can’t tolerate this pain forever.

All of us want you to tell the other spouse. You are helping them perpetuate a lie. A therapist calls these behaviors The Great Lie. By colluding with them you are as culpable as they.

Again, take care of yourself. Stress breaks the body down.

Subjectively, you are a nice guy who loves his wife and let her do whatever she wants without jealousy, reservations and ultimatums, even if she wants an affair. But, objectively, you are no better than her Ahole AP. You gave blessings to your wife to go and ruin another woman's marriage just so that you believe you can save your marriage. Why didn't you ask your wife to seek blessings from OBS before you gave your blessings? I don't know who is more delusional here - you or your wife. The only reason you will not tell OBS is because that will threaten your marriage and your wife will resent you for it. This has nothing to do with blowing up OBS life. You don't give two shits about OBS. This is an act of self-preservation and not of empathy. You are in the stage of denial.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 1:13 PM, Monday, March 27th]

You have already had some success with pulling back.

Don’t you see that?

It’s counter intuitive but moving on without her authentically is the best chance of getting what you want.

Whether with her or another girl.

This will not go well for you if everything you are doing is trying to when her back.

She is moving on. Don’t examine every little thing she does looking for hope.

Of course she has doubts. Ending a marriage and blowing up a family is an enormous worrying decision.

That does not mean she is going to jump back in your arms and fall in love and be loyal again.

You will regret not taking strong action.

Well if you’re determined to stay this course move on like you are going to date again.

Work on fitness, clothes, appearance and general happiness and mood ( which is a lot harder while living with a cheating wife you love).

You are going to have to anyways. Whether you stay in your open marriage or move on to another girl that actually gives a shit about you.

Take care

But I don't want to blow up her life for something that might never become a problem for her

I'm sorry, but life is not a romantic comedy movie.

By "Infidelity and Behavioral Couple Therapy: Relationship Outcomes Over 5 Years Following Therapy" (I can't provide link but you can google it):
"Divorce rates were significantly higher for secret infidelity couples 80% than for revealed infidelity 43% and noninfidelity couples 23%." N is small but it's quite hard to measure these things.

By not telling her you are setting her on a path to divorce whether she wants it or not. She just doesn't know it yet. Her house is on fire, she could be there putting out the fire, but you don't want to tell her because that would be sad for her to hear.

1. I won't be telling the other wife. There are a few reasons for this: a) She is blissfully unaware. Loads of people have affairs and the cheated partner never has a clue that it happened, and carry on living their happy life. In some ways I wish I was one of those, but I know I would have found out or suspected by now so am glad it is out in the open. But I don't want to blow up her life for something that might never become a problem for her.

Your wife might not be the first woman with which other betrayed spouse's (OBS) husband has cheated. They might've had a Dday in the past but she thinks they're reconciled or in the process of reconciling.

But if she doesn't know about any prior infidelities, she might notice that her husband seems less interested and more disengaged from her. She might've already noticed that he's preoccupied with his phone and spending a lot of time on social media. She might be really uncomfortable with his reignited "friendship" with your wife, but he's lying to her and gaslighting her brain into Swiss cheese to convince her that nothing's wrong. Worse yet, maybe she caught gonorrhea and he's convinced her it must've been from a toilet seat.

Therefore, your assumption that OBS is "blissfully unaware" might be inaccurate; more importantly, it's self-serving. You're deceiving yourself into thinking that you're doing OBS a favor, when in reality, you're afraid of an ugly confrontation and you're terrified that your wife will leave you if her boyfriend's wife finds out.

b) This one will sound crazy to a lot of you but again, if my wife went behind my back I would never know. Her honesty has made this a better situation than it could have been. So to betray that honesty isn't something I want to do. It would be me going behind her back when at no point has she gone behind mine.

This is willfully naive. As I said in a previous post, if your wife is comfortable with OM lying to his wife and participating in his betrayal of her, then she's comfortable lying to and betraying you. Maybe she won't lie to you about when she sees him and the fact that she's having sex with him, but she's probably lying about using condoms with him (they're both clean and monogamous, so what do they have to worry about, right? ) I can already tell you with 99.99% certainty that she's lying about their relationship being "just sex" because the OM is an ex.

I also take issue with your characterization of her "honesty." When she initially started talking to him, she said it was just as friends and that you had nothing to worry about. She then escalated to an emotional affair... before blindsiding you with her intentions to make the affair physical.

2. I won't be giving an ultimatum (at this point anyway). One of the things I love about my wife is her determination. She has achieved a lot in her life and telling her she can't do something is not the way to get her to stop. She needs to WANT to stop. Read on on this one though.

Translation: Your wife is a very selfish and self-centered person who would never let anyone or anything get in the way of fulfilling her desires. I'm sure that this isn't the first time in 15 years that she has put her wants and needs over yours; this is the just the latest and most egregious example.

But sadly, you think that your wife is the higher-value partner in your marriage... despite the fact that she and your mutual friends would characterize you as the "perfect husband." Sadder still, your wife knows you feel this way, which is why she's so confident that she can wipe her feet on your heart.

But while I don't begrudge her to this point, I reserve the right to change my mind and I am not happy about this. She said don't make me cut it off yet, and I said you need to do what you need to do, but know that this is hurting me more than I have ever been hurt, and way more than I thought was going to be the case when I gave my "blessing".

You've already changed your mind; your wife knows this and she doesn't give a shit. Besides, if hurting you was enough in and of itself to make her stop, she could've never brought herself to put you through this hell in the first place.

Also, if you think you have some kind of advantage over this guy because she's married to you and you have kids, think again. I speak from experience when I say that having an ex as a romantic rival is probably the most disadvantageous position you can be in. They have history and maybe even some emotionally "unfinished business." Their memories of each other are tied to a younger, more carefree time in their lives, before the day-to-day drudgery of bills, kids, household chores. I'm sure she even remembers their fights fondly, as they probably didn't involve the more mundane matters that you squabble about as a married couple.

My first marriage ended when my ex reconnected with an ex-girlfriend and was unwilling to cut it off, even though it was destroying me. I had already forgiven him for an affair with a co-worker, who he was much more indifferent about, but I knew by the way he spoke to his ex and the look in his eyes when he fought about her that I had no chance. I didn't want to file, but it was my only way out of infidelity.

***

So to conclude, if you're going to continue on your current path-- which is to do nothing and hope the affair fizzles out on its own-- the only advice I can give you is this:

Wear condoms every time you have sex with your wife and avoid ejaculating inside of her, if possible.

The first reason is you need to keep yourself safe from STDs, since you are no longer in a monogamous relationship and you have no idea what diseases this guy has and who else he's sleeping with.

The second reason is that now would be a terrible time to have another child because of the stress it would add to your marriage and make it more difficult for you to leave. Also, if she were to become pregnant in the near future, at least you would know with near certainty that the child isn't yours.

I agree with all the posters who posted after you.

I really feel for the AP's wife. As Stitch said... her house is on fire, but she does not know it yet. What if she finds out from some other source besides you. I can imagine the anger she would feel if AP told her that you knew all about it beforehand, but did nothing. AP might say something like, "Well, BH knew what was going to happen and gave his blessing and permission to his wife to have sex with me and get the wonderful life experience of sex with other men. Why are you making such a big deal? Why can't you give your blessing and let me continue having this wonderful life experience? Me cheating on you will probably make our marriage stronger, don't you think?". Can you imagine what she might do to you and your wife?

Changing the subject.

When I headed out for the comedy night I could tell she was feeling weird that I was going out and she said the next morning she missed me. I wasn't going to chat but she started saying how she wasn't sure about how she felt about it all.

I just had a very devious thought. I read or heard some place that the Greatest Enemy of infidelity is UNPREDICTABILITY. My thoughts are that your wife has taken you for granted for so long that she was comfortable telling you she wanted your blessing to betray you.

My thoughts are that you don't have do the 180 by the book. One thing you might do is start acting a little unpredictable.

For instance, maybe you buy some new clothes and also buy some perfume... expensive brand... and keep it hidden. One night come out in your new clothes that she never knew you had and go out without telling her where you are going. Stay away from the house for at least 2 hours... 3 would be preferable. You could go to a few different places if you wish. Maybe get some coffee and go to the public library and read for a few hours.

Before you come home spray a tiny amount of the perfume on your shirt... especially if you wife takes care of your laundry. Just enough to set the wheels in motion in her thoughts that you were in physical contact with another woman. When she asks you where you have been, you don't have to lie. Just tell her that you went to a couple of different places... nowhere in particular. Just be kind of vague in your answers.

Or you can skip the perfume idea altogether if you think that is too much over the top.

Or, if you aren't comfortable being vague, then you can tell her exactly where you went. You had some coffee and then you went to the library for a little peace and quiet. She might then think something like, "why would he buy new clothes to wear just to get coffee and go to the library? Something else is going on here.".

The moderators probably don't like me planting that idea in your head. If they don't, then I apologize.

The main idea is to stop letting her take you for granted. Do some things that are out the ordinary for you. She might then see that just maybe she needs to do something else besides betray you to help strengthen your marriage.

As I previously said, maybe take up a new hobby like Jujitsu. One that is physical and stress competitive. It will also help you get into better physical condition. If doing physical activities is outside of your normal character, then a physical hobby like this contributes to the UNPREDICTABLE nature of her thought process.

I do wish you luck. Just keep posting. As we say, take what you need and can use and leave the rest.

I don't think I've posted on this thread yet. I have typed out some things, but always deleted them. If I have. Sorry.

You seem like a pretty decent guy, though I don't agree with your position on a few things. You've been given tons of great advice that it seems you are not ready to hear or internalize yet. I say yet, because you are still early on and at the "salvage at any cost" phase.

The frustration voiced by some on this thread comes from a place of concern. It's like playing a video game and even though you've mastered it, you still have to start at the beginning, working through every mind numbing level to get to the end. You're new here; we aren't. Collectively, we've seen it all, over and over again. Though, on a rare occasion there is something that surprises me. Not something different, just something worse than the average case of cheating.

Because of this, and I'm generalizing here, many of us might feel a bit of frustration at a newly minted BS who doesn't seem to get it quite fast enough. I, for one, feel like I'm shouting at a movie screen during a horror film, telling the clueless victim, "No, now is not the time for a bath!"

One thing I've come to realize is that there are some tried and true things a BS should generally do after Dday. First, read the healing library. It helps. Second, take the advice from the old veterans here. Even though I don't always agree with everything they say, their sage advice has been purchased at great price. And third. Try to avoid advice or suggestions that tickle your ears. Ester Perel is not a good source. Yes, she makes some good points, but those are lost in her overall, post-modern clap-trap. There is a reason why we collective shudder when a new BS brings her up.

I hope you survive this thing with your soul intact, I really do. It does get better, but only when you decide on making it so. Just keep reading and posting. If something rubs you the wrong way, then ask yourself why? If there is a general consensus on an issue, there must be a reason for that. Anyway, good luck Ozzy. Hope things work out for you.

Thanks for today's responses. I am reading and contemplating. With the time difference to the US it inadvertently works quite well I think as I can post in the morning while you are all asleep, see your answers throughout the day and evening, and then sleep on them with a clearer head about what to say next.

One thing I clearly haven't made clear is he doesn't know that I know I am sure that is another element of weirdness which isn't encountered all too often. It probably doesn't make much difference to the comments made but worth throwing it into the mix.

There have been a few suggestions of me being devious to my wife. 1) I am not like that, 2) we have already discussed me doing similar and she knows that she doesn't have a leg to stand on if I did it as it would be hypocritical of her.

One thing I can't decide is if the general tone is that I should try and reconcile after this mess is sorted out or if everyone already thinks this is beyond repair? As I don't think it is beyond repair by any means... I know some might say this is deluded but I genuinely don't.

Your wife has the determination of a 5 year old that wants a toy however age inappropriate and expensive while you have the blind faith and admiration of the parent that is being proud of the said immature child for throwing a tantrum.

I can only wish the best for you as this train is heading for disaster station. Your blindfold will come off at some point if not now. The only hope is it will be sooner than later. Your wifes self indulgence unfortunately will impact two families. The biggest tragedy here is that there is one innocent woman who has no idea that this shit show is going on.

[This message edited by Abalone123 at 3:49 PM, Monday, March 27th]

He is not a nice guy. He's an opportunist. He is selfish and entitled. He's already told your wife he's using her. He's lying to his wife and children. He's exposing his wife to yeast infections and potential stds.

He is a lucky man. Not only is he getting sex on the side,he's got the husband's stamp of approval. You're his best friend. You're helping him betray his innocent wife.

Not only does he have a girlfriend, but his wife surely notices her husband is acting off. He's lying and saying it's nothing. Or,worse, he's telling her she's not doing enough for him. Either way, the poor woman is turning herself inside out, trying to please her husband. So he gets extra sex from your wife,and his wife is doing cartwheels for him.

Your wife knows you are in immense pain. She doesn't care enough to stop the affair. She is entitled and selfish. Infidelity is a form of abuse. You're allowing her to abuse you. And you're fine with allowing his wife to be abused.

It has zero to do with not wanting to blow up OBS life. It's already blown up, BTW. It's all about appeasing your cheating wife. You see her as this wonderful woman. She may have good traits..being the other woman in another woman's marriage isn't one of them.

I just don't get it. The OM has point blank told your wife he's using her, and would never consider leaving his wife for her. And you're ok with him using her.

So weird.

[This message edited by HellFire at 4:06 PM, Monday, March 27th]

One thing I can't decide is if the general tone is that I should try and reconcile after this mess is sorted out or if everyone already thinks this is beyond repair? As I don't think it is beyond repair by any means... I know some might say this is deluded but I genuinely don't.

Your house is currently on fire and you're asking us if it will be possible to repair your home. We can't give you an answer while the fire continues to burn and the extent of the damage to your home remains unknown.

I can tell you that the longer you allow your house to burn, the more unmanageable the flames will become and the worse the damage will be. The choice is up to you about whether you want to take decisive action now or wait to see if there's anything left to recover from the rubble when (or if) the fire burns itself out.

What Abalone123 said:

I can only wish the best for you as this train is heading for disaster station. Your blindfold will come off at some point if not now. The only hope is it will be sooner than later. Your wifes self indulgence unfortunately will impact two families. The biggest tragedy here is that there is one innocent woman who has no idea that this shit show is going on.