SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

The first thing that amazes me in this discussion is how many articulate, intelligent, people are on this site. It is also amazing how fair each person is to the others even when they disagree.

I think trying to come to some sort of consensus, either reconciliation or divorce in numbers, is a futile effort. For every cheater, there is a background, and for every betrayed spouse there is a background. Happy childhood vs miserable childhood. Strong boundaries vs poor boundaries. Adult behavior vs childish behavior. Perhaps the cheater was very ashamed of themselves and dedicated to improving not only how they behave but how they are as a married person and overall genuinely good person. But their spouse is one who will never forgive cheating and so the marriage fails. Each story has a person who can either forgive, or not, a cheater who wants to be forgiven, or does not care. You must remember that for every action there’s a reaction and then another reaction and then another and another. Into this you trying to put some sort of data and you cannot do it.

I follow a woman whose husband cheated 14 years ago and she is still writing about what a wonderful marriage they have . He cheated for two years with her knowledge. He cheated with a cw who manipulated him and his wife and he loved her and still loves her to this day. He has admitted this to his wife, who thinks it is a wonderful thing they can be honest with each other and just reading it drives me crazy. They are reconciled so why is she still writing all the time?

However, my opinion is that if you were to ask the betrayed partner in private, in particular BHs, who have declared to their WW, and in MC, that they are great and the M is great, many would admit they are suffering in silence.

I talk to a BH in private as he was the first to reach out and help me when I posted here. He’s about 2 years ahead of me, so about 7 years from his dday. I don’t believe he suffers in silence, in fact I can see he turned his life around, recalibrated some of his absolute beliefs and he leads a really happy life. Infidelity isn’t even in his mind nor is it defining his relationship anymore from what I can see.

On the other hand I have a friend that portrays a very happy marriage. There has been no infidelity in her marriage and she believes that that alone is enough. What she doesn’t know is that on top of all their history she admitted to which involved forcing her into an open marriage, threatening to divorce her after having their first born because "she forgot to be a wife now that she’s a mother", always criticising her in public, her daughter also tells my daughter (both teens) a lot of what’s happening in the background, arguments and how emotionally abusive her husband is on daily basis (not only with her but with their kids too) and let me tell you, I’d choose my marriage, infidelity and all, over hers every time. Lack of infidelity doesn’t necessarily lead to a happy marriage and people suffer in silence even if infidelity isn’t part of their history.

This isn’t a competition, there is enough space on this planet for all of us to turn our lives around after each traumatic event regardless of the path each of us chooses or are forced onto.

I’m 100% convinced that the OP, once divorced, will be able to come here in 1-2 years and tell us all he’s happy and his life is great outside of infidelity, post divorce and I can guarantee you that I have no intention to doubt his words and tell him he is somehow delusional and a happy life after divorce is impossible, he may as well believe in unicorns.

I hope you all find peace and happiness, whatever it looks like for you.

Rather than muddy the creek some more - just copy some others words that somewhat (to me) ring the bell:

I have to be straight-up here. I do see too many sad men here, years out from their WW's affair, who say that they R'd or that they are in R. They are stuck in a marriage however, with a WW who hardly seems to respect them and whom they don't even seem to like very much. These men seem to be walking around like they got their balls cut off! Ouch!

Years of a relationship built with someone outside the marriage causes incalculable damage. Time, energy, effort, and emotion all deprived to the BS and given to the AP, things that should have been directed at the marriage. Knowing someone was very much a confidant of my WH and had a front row seat to everything happening in my life and marriage without my knowledge or consent has left me with a tremendous sense of being violated.

I wish someone had hit me with the cold hard truth right off the bat. If you stay with a cheater, SOMEONE will be nibbling on that shit sandwich for the rest of their marriage.

I believe R is a way to survive, hence this site's name. Many couples R for reasons outside of love: Age, children, assets, fear, codependency, etc. Some also do it out of love, but I don't believe love is enough to save or repair a marriage/relationship damaged by infidelity.

I think true, REAL reconciliation is very rare.

My last two cents about R rates -- I think the people that take some time, meet with lawyers, and at least start the process to separate or divorce, while also working on healing themselves (antidepressants or EMDR or therapy or whatever works to let go of the pain and move forward), tend to do better than the ones that vacillate in fear, don't set firm boundaries, and accept whatever crumbs their spouse throws them as signs of true remorse.

Can people reconcile? Sure, but it isn't the same as before. Never will be. You can move on, forgive, and marriage might actually be bearable, happy sometimes. But there is no getting past those charming little triggers that slap you in the face and remind you of what happened. You just make the decision and get to it.
I don't know a single person who is a BS who doesn't get that look in their eyes every once in a while of remembered pain and just loss of something. Not one; but I do know those who reconciled. Sometimes they are the same people. My two cents.

6. I will always "walk with a limp" emotionally and the scar on my proverbial heart will never disappear, and I’m worse off for that. So is WW. That is not the same thing as being unhappy, or unhappily married. That limp and that scar do not magically disappear based on my status as married or divorced.

Number Six is the one that never can be "healed" - unless you get a brain transplant (from where?) Scary thought eh?

So, ya, you can "R" but it is akin to a dented fender. Looking like perfect the way it came from the factory - but - under the shiny paint is the "Bondo" (fiberglass dent filler putty) hiding. Ones' existence is forever changed.

So I want the Lexus but I don't have the resource ($$) so I settle for what I can get - a Corolla.

One can fill their life/days/hours with all kinds of happy stuff - but there will always be times (for many, not all) where that knowledge of the hidden Bondo traverses through consciousness.

I love these kinds of discussions and applaud every single one of you for your contribution.

Another huge factor in how some of these stories play out is addiction, primarily alcohol, but can include other things. The absolute urge to chase those feel good brain chemicals. And a lot depends on life circumstances at the time.

I'm not a big fan of R in most cases but if I'd been in this conversation 7 or more years ago, I'd have been its biggest cheerleader. I remember believing that I was upholding a family tradition because our family doesn't get divorces and our family doesn't put our old folks in nursing homes.

As I read all of this, I replayed my life and marriage. In my case, when he cheated in 1981, we'd been married for 9 years, 2 young kids, a cat and a dog. We'd just moved to a small town in northern WI from NJ. I didn't know anyone and I didn't have any real job prospects there. When I told him I was moving back to NJ, he offered to change the oil in the van. He was going to be single again and able to chase the barmaids and drink. I was going to leave the man I loved with my whole heart. Our meeting had been like in the movies cuz we saw each other in a crowd of people and it was on. But a funny thing happened. I was packing the van and he was sitting at the kitchen table as I walked by carrying things and he stopped me and asked if he could have the cat. He said he knew not to ask for the dog cuz she was "mine" but maybe he could keep the cat. I said no, absolutely not, that our toddler son carried the cat around with him, even when he went into the bathroom. No way was I taking the cat away from him, it was his security blanket. And in that moment, my XWH looked so forlorn and despondent, my heart melted and I asked him if he'd prefer if we stayed and he was all over that and we kissed and made up and got to a place I'd call Reconciliation. He went to alcohol rehab and then was active in AA and I was devoted to AlAnon (the book Codependent No More was written about me). We were the model couple, everyone said so. We were admired and sought after; his career regained its footing and I made a conscious decision to set aside my own career aspirations to devote myself to him and our family. It was good. And during the next 33 years, my proudest life achievement was saving my family, keeping it together. I'd fought for my family and I'd saved it and I was really proud of myself. I never told anyone about his cheating but his alcoholism was well-known to our friends and relatives.

Today I look back on that and realize that what I considered my proudest achievement I now view as my biggest folly. It's pretty tough to hit your twilight years and have everything you believed about your life turned on its head and find yourself alone in a barren desert. I had no career, no pension, no coworkers, no anything. My memories have been altered and every single time I start to have a fond memory of something, I stop and wonder if he'd started hating me again by that time and was just pretending to be a happy family man. I don't think he cheated during those 33 years- we were ALWAYS together so I felt confident of that but after reading so many stories here, I realize I could very well be wrong about that and I wonder if he was cheating when he looks so happy in our photos. I met him when I'd just turned 18 so nearly every memory in my adult life involves him so I can never escape it.

Because 33 yrs. after the 1st DDay, I had DDay #2. However, I'm not sure it would have happened without the cholesterol statin drug. I believe the statin drugs he was taking for a couple of years before that made him sluggish minded; he never wanted to do anything or go anywhere. He was cranky and hated everyone and everything. So I, devoted wife that I was, the wife who found happiness by making him happy (yeah, I was busy and fell away from AlAnon and was totally codependent again), decided he should go to his 50th Class Reunion even though he hadn't stayed in touch with anyone. In the meantime, he'd finally told the doctor what I said about the side effects he was having from the statins and the doc changed him to a different one and he was almost his old self again. So I used my frequent flyer miles for his plane ticket, I went to Macy's and bought him new clothes, I packed his suitcase and I sent him off. And I have to admit, it was a relief when he left because I was going to spend the whole time with my grandchildren without the cranky party-pooper so we were gonna have fun. But H essentially never came home; he saw his old girlfriend at the Reunion Saturday night and apparently, it was on for them. The Dopamine was alive and well.

The rest of the ugly story is long but he's living his best life with his new wife, having a grand old time, is carefree and has suffered zero consequences. And here I sit, 6 yrs. later, still shell-shocked, unable to move forward in any way with my life. Because I now realize that I'd made him my life and when he left, he took my life with him and I don't know how to fix that.

But anyway, any of those seemingly small happenings and decisions could have lead to different outcomes. If not for the cat, I could be the long-time divorcee who had a great career back in NJ with an active social life. If not for the statin drugs, I wouldn't have been anxious to get rid of him for a weekend. I wouldn't have been trying so hard to find some way to cheer him up, make him enjoy life again. If I hadn't bought him new clothes, she might not have been so interested in him. If I hadn't confronted him with my suspicions and then told him to leave when he finally confessed on DDay#2, he might have stayed and maybe we'd have worked it out. Or if I'd just never said anything, the great love affair of the 2 H.S. sweethearts reunited at long last might have fizzled out (he was in FL and she was in TX so it was long distance for them).

But now I realize that everything we do, every decision we make, is made within the framework of where we are in our lives. Our financial situation, our children, our parents, our careers, our health, our age, etc. But still, no matter how much they work on themselves, some people are no match for dopamine. I wasted my life on one of those people and it's too late for me to go back and recover any of my life.

[This message edited by josiep at 2:51 PM, Thursday, March 2nd]

I personally don't view SI as in any way representing a cross-section of individuals impacted by infidelity. To the contrary, SI, and places like it, reflect a self-selected sub-group of people.

Many married people impacted by infidelity simply leave the marriage, almost as a knee-jerk. Few or none of them end up on infidelity sites.

There is a range of other responses. Some feel such a deep sense of shame at having been cheated on that they share with nobody. Some white knuckle it and "stay for the kids". Some follow the manipulative advice of a wack MC and "accept 1/2 the blame" for the affair. Etc. I would reckon a great many of these people also don't end up here.

My observation is that a lot of the people who find themselves here are the ones who are howling in the dark, seeking another human voice. Places like this didn't exist when I was cheated on (because the internet didn't exist). I was one of those types, though. I was the kind of man who rued the loss of my sunk cost, who could not envision a future of co-parenting, whose entire identity and sense of self worth was wrapped up in being married to and in a family with my xWW.

More than anything, every fiber in my being wanted to cling desperately to the family unit I thought I had. It was my place of piece, and I simply could not believe it would ever be broken. I cried and blubbered and begged her to stay, did the pick-me dance. I even privately considered altering my personal paradigm of "family" such that she could carry on with the other man while we remained otherwise intact. Mostly, I was terrified of the grey, hazy unknown of being "alone". In other words, I was a lot of men on this site.

My WW did me the favor of forcing the D and leaving me. At the time, the pain and terror, infused with shame and emasculation, were so overwhelming and all-encompassing that there were times I felt I could not even take another breath.

Then it went away. I moved on. Found peace with myself. Started finding joy in life again. Dated. Pursued my hobbies. Found a co-parenting cadence with my ex, even to the point of being friendly with her. Re-married and raised a family.

I see my voice here as a voice of that specific lived experience for men who are doing what I was doing. I think I'd have been unhappy had we stayed together. I think I would have seethed with resentment as years passed. I think she knew that about me and, even though her thing with the AP was just a fling for her, she left me for me, not for the AP. In the end, I have been way better off as a result of separating and staring over, despite the extreme pain and anguish I felt while going through the process.

This:

I think the people that take some time, meet with lawyers, and at least start the process to separate or divorce, while also working on healing themselves (antidepressants or EMDR or therapy or whatever works to let go of the pain and move forward), tend to do better than the ones that vacillate in fear, don't set firm boundaries, and accept whatever crumbs their spouse throws them as signs of true remorse.

I agree with all of this except the "set firm boundaries" part. I think a BS who "sets boundaries" is a BS who is on his/her/their heels. The only boundaries that mean anything, in my observation, are those that the WS sets for him/her/theirself, understanding, via empathy, that this is what the BS needs.

I also think that the "if/then" dialectic so many BS's engage in with their WS in the wake of Dday is not just a waste of breath, but also a road to perdition. There is no try. There is only do, or do not.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 9:39 PM, Wednesday, March 1st]

So, ya, you can "R" but it is akin to a dented fender. Looking like perfect the way it came from the factory - but - under the shiny paint is the "Bondo" (fiberglass dent filler putty) hiding. Ones' existence is forever changed.

So I want the Lexus but I don't have the resource ($$) so I settle for what I can get - a Corolla.

I’m someone currently in some sort of limbo state. I am 8 months out from D-day. I’m not divorced, and if I say I’m trying to R the chorus of "too early! Rugsweeping!" reigns down from the heavens. So I’m following this with interest and some horror.

In very simple terms, there are four possibilities we are talking about here: R or D and happy or unhappy. There is a strong slant to this thread that the box of unhappy D is not a possibility. Like making the choice for D is a guarantee of getting the Lexus. But it seems to me that life makes no such promises and as a child of divorce I have no romantic ideas about it. Part of the shit sandwich is there are no clear paths to immediate happiness, at least from my vantage point. I have to take a risk either way.

I’ve thought about narrative building a lot recently. Should I choose the proverb "better the devil you know than the devil you don’t", or is "fool me once…" the right one for this situation? All of these short sayings are distillations of our collective previous experiences that we try to use to help us make future decisions in similar situations. But I’ve never been in a situation like this. So for me I’m taking it day by day, sometimes hour by hour and seeing what I can handle and what my heart wants.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 2:21 PM, Wednesday, March 1st]

I’m not sure why some of the people who long ago got out of infidelity by way of divorce are lingering here, but if it does them some good I’m happy for them.

I think because clearly too consider ourselves surviving infidelity. Surviving deep betray does not wholey equate with R. We pick ourselves up, gather what remains pieces we can find, and rebuild something as close to tolerable that we can. Some of us do a better job at this and get to okay, even pretty damn good.

I chose to D because of who my WW was as the core. After infidelity, even the very best version of herself did not meet minimum expectations for me and I was no longer willing to overlook or subsidize her shortcomings in the same way I was before, as the loving, committed husband I promised to be. She had burned through hercequity and did not have the capacity to rebuild it.

Now, would I have liked to save my M and my family and ended up with a good relationship. Yes. Absolutely! Just not in the cards for me.

I do think that D should be the default for infidelity, with R as an option, rather than try R but D only if you have to. I say this from a strategic position as it places the maximum control in the BS's hands at the early stages and drives home the seriousness of the consequences for the WS.

Anyway, I value the range of opinions here, especially those I disagree with as they challenge my biases.

Also, in the spirit of supporting OP, I just read your thread in the divorce section, and I’m so sorry. I would be making the same decision you are in the situation you find yourself in, continued A during false R. Your wife gave you no real choice, IMO.

** Posting As A Member **

What bothers me most about this discussion is the number of posts that call some members liars. I hate to be that blunt, but it is apparently necessary.

Some of us say we are in R and happy. On what basis does anyone doubt our word?

Look, all we have is what we post and read on SI. I choose to believe the vast majority of what I read, and I know I don't lie when I post, and I do my best not to exaggerate or minimize when sharing my opinion.

I think that members are well-advised to believe posters who share their personal experiences until they demonstrate that they're not reporting accurately.

*****

A little clarification: Glass's 20% split number comes from couples she counseled. It was not and was not intended to mean 80% of all couples R. It was intended to be a 'statistic' that looks meaningful but isn't. And no one can get counseling from Glass now, no matter how much you may want to R. When you attempt to deal with numbers, it's essential to look closely at the basis of the numbers.

For a good set of numbers based on surveys of people who experienced infidelity, look around the web for a free download of Help For Therapists (and Their Clients) by Peggy Vaughan. Most of her survey participants stayed together, BTW. Again, though, this is based on surveys completed by people who agreed to take the survey, not a random selection of subjects. The numbers say things about the survey respondents, not about society at large.

Sisson

What bothers me most about this discussion is the number of posts that call some members liars. I hate to be that blunt, but it is apparently necessary.

Some of us say we are in R and happy. On what basis does anyone doubt our word?

I haven't seen anyone call members liars, and unless I missed something, I certainly haven't seen anyone except OP say that there is no one on this site who is reconciled and happy.

But interpretations of people's experiences are subjective. There are some people who characterize themselves as "in reconciliation," but their descriptions of their current experiences and situations seem to contradict that.

Edit;add WiseOldFool

I’m not sure why some of the people who long ago got out of infidelity by way of divorce are lingering here, but if it does them some good I’m happy for them.

This might not have been your intention, but your comment seems to imply that only people who are reconciled have anything to offer. I found SI after I got divorced; I decided to join and comment because I like helping people and thought that sharing my experience and advice might be beneficial to people who went through what I went through.

Also, I don't need SI to justify my decision to divorce nor do I seek emotional gratification from telling people to divorce their spouses. In fact, I desperately wanted to reconcile with my ex, but it was never an option... so I never begrudge a person for wanting to try.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 9:38 PM, Wednesday, March 1st]

Blue...

I got the very same impression that you did from Wise Old Fool's post. That only people who are reconciled or are reconciling should be on this website. Guess that leaves me out.

It was not my intent to cast aspersions.

I will reveal my own bias here, which may explain my inartful comment.

I hope one day it has been many years since I've been here because this site served its purpose for me but is no longer useful to me. I don't aspire to be a long time member here. No disrespect to the people that are, many have been supremely helpful to me and many others. It's just not my plan.

I meant no offense to anyone.

[This message edited by Wiseoldfool at 11:42 PM, Wednesday, March 1st]

I’m not sure why some of the people who long ago got out of infidelity by way of divorce are lingering here, but if it does them some good I’m happy for them.

I'm here for the people who need help through their D and that life is really great on the other side. Most shouldn't attempt R we're here to show there is another way to happiness.

I’m not sure why some of the people who long ago got out of infidelity by way of divorce are lingering here, but if it does them some good I’m happy for them.

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps they are paying it forward and offering advice and support just as they received themselves? Just because they divorced doesn't mean they've worked out their own pain and may still need support.

Some have been here many years and only occasionally comment. Some just browse the site and read comments. As for the ones who are unresolved and gone after one or two posts that's their business. Maybe they didn't feel comfortable sharing their story or it just could be too painful to discuss. We also have those who admit to having lurked a long time before posting and that's understandable as well, it's not always easy to share such deep personal pain.

Just some food for thought WiseOldFool.

I haven't seen anyone call members liars, and unless I missed something, I certainly haven't seen anyone except OP say that there is no one on this site who is reconciled and happy.

OP states R is a myth. At least one other poster implied that those of us wo say we are happy would say something different in private. That's saying that fewer of us are happy than claim to be, though it stays away from calling us AL liars. but it certainly calls some of us liars.

WRT D'ed members posting in the R forum: Many of the statements one makes about themself are wrongly taken to mean we are saying that what applies to us as individual applies to everyone. D'ed members posting in R about their experience with false R provides extremely important balance, IMO. I've thought that since I was a newbie, wanting R but fearing I couldn't get it. One of the best things about SI, IMO, is it's willingness for D'ed people to post in R. I can post in D, too, after all ... but I believe the people who say D was good for them. I don't know D, though, so it wouldn't be very useful for me to post, 'D can be a great choice.'

I don’t think I’ve seen another poster with the same story as mine. My husband cheated while we were young and had very young children. He traveled and he did it then. I was told but I did nothing about it. I had no way to provide support for me and my children, so I kept quiet. As it turns out he grew up. He is now a very good husband and a great support and a good father. Several years ago I blindsided him with a question and he had no ability to backtrack so he admitted it. I’ve never ask him another thing. It was not an affair. I know there was no emotional context to it. He was just out cheating. He doesn’t do it anymore . We have moved on. I think the reason I come here is because I know that marriages can not only last, but actually be a wonderful life for both parties. We’ve had some really great adventures. He has my sense of humor, and both of us have deep seated moral centers. He just found his a little later so we have moved on.
There is no alcohol or drug addictions…..although I should say he is addicted to golf.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 7:23 PM, Thursday, March 2nd]

I've heard a lot of stories about BH who stayed with their WW and regretted it, but I don't think I have EVER heard a story about a BH who divorced his WW and ended up regretting it.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 8:16 PM, Thursday, March 2nd]

I don't think I have EVER heard a story about a BH who divorced his WW and ended up regretting it.

Unless mine was on drugs or psychotic, I guess he must have regretted it at the time, or else we wouldn’t have remarried.

I’m pretty sure he regrets getting back together by now, though.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 8:50 PM, Thursday, March 2nd]

IRL I know a BH who divorced (she left him for the AP) and regrets it to this day. He'd take her back in a heartbeat.

People like that aren't posting here.

I know other divorced people who did not heal and remain bitter and lonely.

I know people who have reconciled and at least appear happy (not here, IRL).

I know people who have reconciled and remain miserable.

Too many variable to say which way is best. It depends on so much including the make-up of the people involved and the effort to heal versus rugsweep.

I’ll add my own two parents to the list of unhappy D. They divorced in response to my father’s affairs, lies and alcoholism. Let’s just say neither of their lives fell into the "Lexus" category. Now I don’t know that they would have been happy if they could have R’d, I think my father made that option basically impossible. But that divorce was no easy button to the good life, that I know for sure.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 10:07 PM, Thursday, March 2nd]