SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

We see SO MANY past members come back,with a new dday. Shocked, because their WS "did the work." Their WS did everything we tell them they need to require of the WS, they seemed terribly remorseful..yet here they are. Again.

And yet when prompted and asked, "everything" seems to mean a promise of not doing it again and giving access to all devices. In fact there was a thread I was reading just the other day where the returning OP said exactly that and then, pages later, realised her requirements were not what reconciliation actually requires.

So after 5 and a bit years on SI I’m yet to find a thread where "the WS did everything and yet I’m back" really means actual required work to Reconcile.

As for trust, I’m not sure about you but one realisation from this is that trust should never have been 100% in the first place and we should never put 100% trust in another person. The only person we should trust 100% is ourselves.

Telling my experience is not shaming the OP nor anyone here. The desired outcome in all cases is getting out of infidelity by all means.

In fact, OP aside, I find the responses that followed which insist and imply that those reconciling have no clue what they’re talking about or that we are some sort of self deceiving, unicorn believers, delusional people highly disrespectful.

[This message edited by Luna10 at 8:46 PM, Tuesday, February 28th]

We see SO MANY past members come back,with a new dday. Shocked, because their WS "did the work." Their WS did everything we tell them they need to require of the WS, they seemed terribly remorseful..yet here they are. Again.

And yet when prompted and asked, "everything" seems to mean a promise of not doing it again and giving access to all devices. In fact there was a thread I was reading just the other day where the returning OP said exactly that and then, pages later, realised her requirements were not what reconciliation actually requires.

So after 5 and a bit years on SI I’m yet to find a thread where "the WS did everything and yet I’m back" really means actual required work to Reconcile.

100% this. It used to be something I worried about much more, but after being here several years, the posters that come back with another d-day years later (unfortunately) rarely sound like their WS actually "did the work." Every time I've read a post like this, the WS placated their BS for a bit and then fell into old behaviors, without actually showing initiative and/or genuinely working on themselves.

There are a few WS/MH posters on this site that come to mind that (at least via their posts) sound like they are genuinely remorseful, and whether or not their marriage continues, they don't want to keep being the kind of person that would have an A, so they do the work.

My last two cents about R rates -- I think the people that take some time, meet with lawyers, and at least start the process to separate or divorce, while also working on healing themselves (antidepressants or EMDR or therapy or whatever works to let go of the pain and move forward), tend to do better than the ones that vacillate in fear, don't set firm boundaries, and accept whatever crumbs their spouse throws them as signs of true remorse.

Suppose we all have to check our biases. Sunk cost effect is a well-studied phenomenon, and all of us has sunk cost into whatever direction we have taken. As a person who is divorcing, I can relate to the OP's post and I hope I did the right thing by not trying to save my M, but I realise I have a sample of one, and that's not very representative. I lost a spouse and two friends who all put their needs first. I also don't know if "better life" awaits me. If you have put effort into reconciliation, you are predisposed to think it was for something, even if you trigger regularly, don't trust your WS 100% and consider it normal, and lost friends who just couldn't look at what you were doing to yourself. Or maybe you are genuinely happy :)

What I realised from my double (or triple?) betrayal, God indeed laughs at our plans. We have zero influence on the outcomes, we can only learn in the process and hopefully become better humans. If that work can/should be done in D or R, is really not that relevant, and often not really up to us.

Slightly off-topic but related to reconciliation: While I learned a great deal on this site, one thing still puzzles me - the fully recovered and happily reconciled BS's attitude towards AP. Scum of the earth, slut, predator, let's piss on their grave. I understand a WS might have done a lot to win you back and AP didn't, but WS had a lot more to lose too - stable home, family feeling, stable supply of pleasure in bed, social status. Same as your WS, AP too have childhood traumas and abandonment issues that lead to whatever they did. If you are happily married, why not cheer for the possibility that AP learned something too. In between considerate and thoughtful advices on either R or D, this struck me as a weirdly legit channel of aggression tolerated here.

[This message edited by ZDZD at 10:04 PM, Tuesday, February 28th]

So after 5 and a bit years on SI I’m yet to find a thread where "the WS did everything and yet I’m back" really means actual required work to Reconcile.

This seems like armchair quarterbacking to me. If the WS does not do 'everything' then the BS will be back. Whereas if the WS does 'everything' reconciliation is possible. That is starting from the end and working back to the beginning. We are all here because life did not work that way.

I actually agree with the post, at least the general idea.

Can people reconcile? Sure, but it isn't the same as before. Never will be. You can move on, forgive, and marriage might actually be bearable, happy sometimes. But there is no getting past those charming little triggers that slap you in the face and remind you of what happened. You just make the decision and get to it.

I don't know a single person who is a BS who doesn't get that look in their eyes every once in a while of remembered pain and just loss of something. Not one; but I do know those who reconciled. Sometimes they are the same people. My two cents.

ZDZD, I can relate to about half of your well considered observations, but I agree with this completely:

We have zero influence on the outcomes, we can only learn in the process and hopefully become better humans.

I’ve learned far more than I intended in this life about human behavior, and those lessons continue. That and other psychological and philosophical tools gained on the road back, I hope I’m a little wiser.

None of reinvestment into the relationship feels like the well studied sunk costs phenomenon. I feel I’ll be on solid ground whether the newly rebuilt M lasts another day or the rest of my time on the planet. As you said, letting go of any potential outcome is key. If I don’t have the relationship I want or need, the strength gained from surviving the last trauma allows me great comfort that I can handle about any emotional trains that jump the tracks.

As to the 100 percent blind trust we all thought we had, this is one thing I don’t understand why anyone mourns this loss.

100 percent blind trust was never a good idea. I’m happy to be done with the concept entirely. Trust but verify is more than an 80’s political slogan. Trust the new and improved lizard brain that put us on alert in the early days after discovery. If something doesn’t feel right, it isn’t right. I trust me more now and my wife I trust enough to get vulnerable again. Every relationship so far in life seems to have some kind of risk/reward ratio, and fortunately/unfortunately I understand the risk part more than anticipated.

Good point on feelings that a lot of R couples have toward the AP. I agree with your take. I should want AP to improve and be a better man for his family. It is taking me a while to get there, I think because he was a family friend and I watched his kids grow up with mine that has added time to the healing clock. He fooled me too.

I have more improving to do too.

I hope a better life awaits you ZDZD, despite the strict NO guarantee policy life hands us.

Reconciliation is NOT a myth, but it won't happen in all situations, and isn't even something to consider in many.

However absolutes are not wanted here. If there are unicorns as you say then say hello to one.
Was it easy? Nope.
Was it fraught with pain, and difficulty? Yup
Did the WS pull their head out of their ass, do the work and fix their shit? 100%.
If they didn't I wasn't going to allow myself to be tortured endlessly.

After a few false starts I found my voice, set some serious boundaries, and expectations, and gave my WS little to no leeway in NOT doing the work.

I also did a lot of work to heal myself, and become strong and independent. I was not going to go through this and ever feel like I could not survive it, or that I needed to stay in a broken relationship.

I get and firmly believe that if you have a WS that are not going to do the work, or are not invested in healing then you absolutely need to get out immediately. Don't allow any more pain or damage happen to you. Heal yourself. Do not get involved with another person, the first person you should be involved with after leaving a broken relationship that ends as a result of infidelity to love yourself, and have an A w/ yourself.
Learn to be happy alone, and independent will result in a life that is full authentic.

The big question should be whether it's moral to advise R or D as an equally viable option. "Just found out" is a remarkable place, but there is a lot of "you can choose R or D to get yourself out of infidelity" when I think all here agree that D is almost always(not always) a much better and safer option by a mile. There should be a big disclaimer about the risks for R at the top of the reconciliation subforum. Now there are only "positive stories". People need a ray of light, but they also need to know the odds.

From a statistical point of view, the population here is big enough to deduce some basic data. These data would apply only to this population, but this should be fine as the person reading it would be a part of it.

The big question should be whether it's moral to advise R or D as an equally viable option.

I don't know that people advise R as an "equally viable option" -- just that it's an option.

So if we ignore the research of Glass, and her 80 percent rate of success with BOTH people working and wanting R.

Or ignore my MC who counseled people four decades (working with dozens of other peers who talk to each other) and feels good about calling it a coin toss, a 50 percent rate of couple who stay together.

Let's go with BluerThanBlue's take, that maybe only 25 percent of that 50 percent are reasonably happy.

That would be 250,000 couples out of every million who build some decent from the wreckage of infidelity.

Be as cynical as you want, call it 10 percent. That's 100,000 people who found a good way through.

That's a lot.

But again, ultimately, stats didn't make me choose my path.

I chose it.

And I stayed with it because my wife chose it.

It ultimately doesn't matter to me at all whether people believe my M is happy.

I have zero fucks to give about what anyone thinks of me. Ever.

The only reason I share my experience here is for those happy few. The 100K-250K per million couples working through this Hell together.

That's how SI was born, from that microscopic chance (or whatever chance people think they have).

I think MOST people find a way through, eventually via D or R.

The members I worry about are the ones who are stuck, caught in limbo. People who find D the clear choice get to a better place. However many R couples there are find a better place. It's the members in limbo, staying for kids, finances who feel trapped. Or people trying to trust a remorseless WS.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 11:21 PM, Tuesday, February 28th]

Stream of consciousness inbound……..

I’m a BH approaching the fifth anniversary of Dday. It took a long time after that to get the full story, but the fact of a LTEA/LTPA with my best friend and the beginning and end dates were in hand by the end of that night almost five years ago. What was omitted, obscured, and denied that later surfaced was details. That said, I put myself in the "reconciliation in progress" category.

A couple of observations I would make here.

1. There are far too many incomplete stories here on SI to draw any conclusions about ratios of R/D or successful R. Countless people show up here, post their story, or part of it, and then disappear without an ending. They get some advice, vent a bit, and dip. We don’t know what happened next. That category of member, "status unknown," is huge as far as I can tell. This is to say nothing of what the other spouse would tell us if they were here, by the way. Incomplete, one-sided narratives are no basis for forming a conclusion, or even a guess, about what happened to them, never mind what could be possible for you based upon the incomplete, one-sided narrative of an anonymous source.

2. Many very active posters are committed advocates of their own divorce, which is natural. People often become ego committed to their own choices. A number of the people who are divorced seem to me to also proselytize for divorce generally. I’m not sure why some of the people who long ago got out of infidelity by way of divorce are lingering here, but if it does them some good I’m happy for them. I discount the "it was right for me, it is right for you…" theory.

3. Lots of people here are likewise stubbornly pursuing R, by their own admission unhappily. They are stuck and wallowing in despair. They are not reconciled, or even reconciling. They are simply "not divorcing, yet."

4. I’ve lost count of the number of "I’m back, I thought we were going to be ok in R but [then this happened] and here I am again, this time for the last time….]" So clearly R fails even years later and despite at least one person’s dogged pursuit of it. Some of those people see that they should have divorced at the first opportunity and regret their wasted time. Those are always tough for me to read. Waitedwaytoolong’s story haunts me; "could it be me?"

5. My own R is, as I said, a work in progress. So would my marriage be even without an affair by my WW. In my marriage, the discovery of the affair prompted much more intentional and difficult work to nurture the marriage by both of us. I’d rather have gotten to that point by almost any other route, but here I am.

6. I will always "walk with a limp" emotionally and the scar on my proverbial heart will never disappear, and I’m worse off for that. So is WW. That is not the same thing as being unhappy, or unhappily married. That limp and that scar do not magically disappear based on my status as married or divorced.

7. "Always" and "never" should never be used to say what humans always do or do not do. I hope you see what I did there.

It seems to me that the majority of people here are suffering, struggling, and coming here for some relief, some direction.

My relief, my direction is this: humans are capable of heinous cruelty, remarkable grace and mercy, and stunning resilience. Sometimes the same person demonstrates all three in short order. My wife earns her place in our marriage every day, or tries, and so do I. We are a work in progress.

I hope you all get out of infidelity by whatever means are necessary and find equanimity that suits you when you do. It is not for me to judge what you are capable of, what your spouse is capable of, or what you should do even if you could know both of those things in this very moment.

[This message edited by Wiseoldfool at 11:58 PM, Tuesday, February 28th]

That said, I put myself in the "reconciliation in progress" category.

I'm only a couple years farther down this road, but I can imagine there is no end zone, no place to spike the ball at the end. Every relationship needs work, and after infidelity, if both people stick around, it's far more work than any of us originally signed up for. I think I've offered before that there is no real end to R, the work just finds a better place and becomes folded in to the 'normal' relationship work.

Waitedwaytoolong’s story haunts me; "could it be me?"

I've been fortunate to have had a number exchanges with Waited.

Waited is a badass who helped me by constantly offering his unvarnished truth. He hung in there for family, but I don't see that as a part of his tragedy, an honorable man attempting to be honorable in horrifying circumstances.

Personally, I found help from Waited perspective. He's right, even a WS doing the work does't deserve another chance. It was sin or a stain that simply could not be overlooked and I respect his take, because I thought I was going to make the same choice for the same reason.

I decided to not define my wife by her worst choices, her worst days, her least days. That, I think is the difference is I was able to KNOW the sin and the stain is right there, but so is all the good my wife has done, and mostly for what she has done to do better and be better.

Or maybe you put it better than me:

My relief, my direction is this: humans are capable of heinous cruelty, remarkable grace and mercy, and stunning resilience. Sometimes the same person demonstrates all three in short order.

So true.

For me, I've never regretted offering grace, and been surprised by what happens when the person knows they don't deserve the last chance, but embrace the opportunity just the same.

I will always "walk with a limp" emotionally and the scar on my proverbial heart will never disappear, and I’m worse off for that.

I somehow landed in bumper sticker territory -- what didn't kill me, made me stronger.

I usually hate that take, but there is truth there. I am not dead. Infidelity did many things, but I'm still here. I live and breathe to fight another day. And as noted, while R is not for the weak (neither is D really) -- I am far stronger than I was living the faux reality that existed prior to my wife's confession.

Best to you and yours as you make progress Wise.

To be clear, I have great respect for Waitedwaytoolong. I’ve had private message exchanges with him that have been very helpful to me. He did what was right for him, and I have no criticism for that at all.

To be clear, I have great respect for Waitedwaytoolong. I’ve had private message exchanges with him that have been very helpful to me. He did what was right for him, and I have no criticism for that at all.

I didn't see your thought as a critique at all!

I was explaining how he helped me decide, based on understanding his decision.

I’m not advocating one perspective or the other.

However, my opinion is that if you were to ask the betrayed partner in private, in particular BHs, who have declared to their WW, and in MC, that they are great and the M is great, many would admit they are suffering in silence.

This is by no means an absolute. However, the point is that they are suffering in silence, which is not conducive to statistical analysis one way or another.

My point is that I think it’s near impossible to reliably quantify those who are TRULY happy in R and those who are not. That leaves the subject up to an analysis based upon anecdotal information.

That leaves the subject up to an analysis based upon anecdotal information.

Hell, society in general finds infidelity a source of entertainment, based on music, TV and movies, I don't think MOST people understand infidelity in any form.

There is no hard data. Some WS take their secrets to the grave, people lie in polls, one way or the other.

I've not seen a poll on how many people are suffering in silence. One person is too many, but I haven't seen ANY data about what people say if asked in private.

That's what makes SI cool, we're in private. I get to vent my actual feelings in an anonymous forum.

I don't think members are lying to me to gain sympathy or claim they are happy if they're NOT.

Agreed. But posters here are only a very fractional representation.

Can one use SI as the arbiter either way? I would say no.

I am a member of the "not divorcing yet" category, with the caveat of "if ever" added because of our disabled child.

The tragedy of my situation is that my H did divorce me after my affair, before we had children. We remarried while both thinking "this time will be different". Well, it’s "different" all right….now we have children, including the aforementioned disabled child, which makes us trapped.

Granted, it’s also different in that I’m not a cheater anymore. But as others have astutely pointed out, "not cheating" =/= "reconciled", or "happy".

I suppose there isn’t really a point to my post, other than to say that limbo sucks.

Agreed. But posters here are only a very fractional representation.

Can one use SI as the arbiter either way? I would say no.

I agree.

But I also think SI works because, for the most part, people simply share their experience.

I think most members then find the experience or experiences they most identify with and find their path at some point.

I doubt the vast majority people are talked into anything they don’t want from people on an anonymous board.

I didn’t even know R was a thing before I found SI. I assumed every M ended the instant one person cheated. And a lot of times it does.

Once I learned some — the key is some — people are worthy of a shot at redemption, I asked questions about R, etc.

I have decided to start a thread and title it "The myth of 'needing' to divorce after infidelity." Then I'm going to write:

Bottom line is this, if your spouse pair bonded with another human being (mainly on the WW side) and you divorce her, you're just taking the easy way out.

Realize it, don't kid yourself. I sincerely wish you all the best but divorce will not solve your problems.

Just gonna share my "opinion." Talk about getting shaaaaaaamed! Can you imagine? Geeze.

I'm very sorry, saditsover. Your screen name speaks volumes, and your pain is fresh. I think your WW is a fool, and she is going to be very, very sorry. Not that it will even matter, but she will realize her idiocy one day. I'm really sorry for what you are enduring. And your poor son. I remember having quite bitter thoughts myself early on. I honestly just had so much anger and bitterness at the entire world for what it was throwing at me. Wishing you some relief. (((((Saditsover)))))

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 1:53 AM, Wednesday, March 1st]

As to the 100 percent blind trust we all thought we had, this is one thing I don’t understand why anyone mourns this loss.

I have said I mourn this loss. And I agree that I can never go back to 100% trust and in hind site never should have had it. But I think the loss that I feel is for the possibility of a life and marriage in which fidelity was lived and realized. I truly believe there are many couples who have had that and for them that trust was not misplaced. I am most likely a hopeless romantic but I think the fact that many acknowledge something was lost says that a lot of us had that dream at one point.

[This message edited by IOnceBelieved at 3:39 AM, Wednesday, March 1st]