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Hi, Elle, is there any way you can get someone to take care of the children for a few hours every week?

I think you really need some down time to get out of the house, even just visiting a coffee shop in peace or going to the park for a long walk and just sit and be still.

Having four children is draining emotionally, having to deal with his sh*t on top of all of his crap will exhaust you even further.

IMO, you need to keep remembering that he's been a POS for the past few years. Would you really want him back after all he's done? He hasn't changed and he's not willing to change. He's a child in a man's body.

I hope you have a better day today, never apologize for your feelings, sometimes it's good to just get it all out.

Be kind to yourself.

[This message edited by annb at 3:51 PM, Saturday, April 30th]

Sweetheart, Stop apologizing for yourself, especially to us. There's nothing you've said that is unique. They're new thoughts and feelings to you, but I bet every one of us has felt some of what you've felt, and every feeling you've written about has been experienced by at least some of us.

I'm pretty solid, and I remember my 'I wish I didn't exist' phases, and I mean 'phases'. Given how quickly you came out of it, I think it's likely to be another manifestation of the 'denial' phase of recovering from trauma and loss.

Almost everyone has trouble establishing NC.

Lots of people are co-dependent. If you are - and you show a lot of the signs - you've got a choice of books that can give you guidance WRT steps you can take to assert yourself. You have to do hard work to implement the recommendations, but at least you have a road map.

Recovering from being betrayed is not easy. We get no training in this - we have to learn as we go along. Everybody makes mistakes. Everybody.

Being betrayed shatters the BS's illusions about their M. At first, you're overwhelmed with the loss. You're overwhelmed because you have no way of knowing what is actually there. After illusions get shattered, it takes time and effort to rebuild a picture in your head that is less bound by illusions. That's hard work, too. OF course it will take time and effort.

I can speak only for myself, and I see no need for any of your apologies to us. You're not perfect. You can apologize to yourself for making mistakes; that might help you. You could also tell yourself something like, 'Well, that didn't work' and then pick yourself up and do the next right thing.

*****

As for being crazy, this thread is a record of you seeing your H and your sitch more and more clearly. That's not a problem - it's problem-solving.

Sure, it's also a record of imperfection - imperfection followed by recovery. That, too, seems like the opposite of 'crazy'.

You're doing well in an awful sitch. That's the most we can ask of ourselves.

Elle2,
You have so much on your plate. Please give yourself the grace to feel like you are at your wit’s end.Totally understandable!

Can you SIL or MIL help with the kids for a couple hours? Let you get away and get your hair done or a pedicure or a couple hours staring at the waves or whatever would feel like a treat to you? Even if just once a week, you’ll have that to look forward to and that may give you strength in those most challenging moments.

And see a shark of a lawyer. I think that starting to have a plan, getting your ducks lined up will give you strength. Knowledge is power, and right now you can’t see around the next bend. But as you understand what D will look like, you’ll get more visibility and it will help.

NC is so hard. But really really powerful. Keep a list of his worst transgressions nearby - maybe on your phone - so when you are tempted to reach out or respond you can read that first to help you stay NC. I also responded to texts promptly because, you know, respect and courtesy. I would read the text, see if it was actually important ( our house burned down shortly after DDAY so there was lots of insurance crap we had to deal with jointly). If not urgent, then I set a goal to not respond for 4 hours or one day or whatever. Just to show him my world no longer revolved around his every need or desire. It was brutal at first, but got much easier when I realized that he NEVER responded promptly to me, even if important.

And look in to IC. If in-person is just not possible, maybe an online IC will work. One thing my IC told me over and over was that I would be done with my M when I was… and to keep taking steps to secure my future without him. And he was right— one day I was just DONE. Still crying, still hurting, still wishing that it had not come to that point. But my heart and my mind finally caught up with each other and realized the pain of staying was worse than the pain of letting go. You will get there— just keeping taking those little steps to take back your power.

Also, I know you feel bad about your 11YO hearing you yell. I don’t have kids, but it seems to me that the kids know that major shit is going down and it must be confusing when everyone is pretending everything is okay. It may help you kiddo to hear that and realize he’s not crazy, big shit is happening. Please talk to him and remind him that he is loved by you and his dad, and this has nothing to do with the kids. Just reassure that Dad isn’t being a dick because of the kids. As you know, kids are very self-centered :-).
You are good mom and it is good for them to see you setting boundaries and holding them.

Hang in there. You WILL get through this.

So after reading a little more about codependency I think it's possible. Not all the boxes are checked but many. The one that stands out to me is betraying own needs in order to be chosen. I definitely bhabe lost myself in this relationship. The little joy I have (planning Disney vacations for people etc) was a huge issue for him. He said it's all I talked about. And i know I did talk about it a lot. Because bit made me happy. Disney is my family's happy place too we have tons of amazing memories there so talking about it reminds me of happy times. And, I'm not trying to be mean, but my husband is a total jock so talking about politics and stuff isn't him. But I can say that I have learned a ton about sports. and I make an effort to read about them so I'm up to date on any big news so we can talk about it. The other that stuck out was trying to control/change/fix.I know I've been trying to fix him. Encouraging bhin to get on medication for his depression. Knowing the signs of when he's off his meds. Encouraging him to discuss the possibility of getting his dosage increased. Just in general doing all these things that I know would help him and our marriage and our family in the long run. It's become increasingly clear that he is in a bit of a tailspin. And even his family is kind of lost on what to do.

It's become increasingly clear that he is in a bit of a tailspin. And even his family is kind of lost on what to do.

Again, you are currently hard-wired to think about his needs. That's your dominant thought pattern. But it's also bringing you misery, so that's what you need to change. And you do have to be patient with yourself and you do have to forgive yourself right away when you wobble. It's been how your mind works for a long time now.

It takes a pretty big effort when you're not normally a selfish person to put yourself first. This is just like putting on your own oxygen mask before attending to others though. You need to be a healthy, competent person in order to be there for the ones who need you. That means you need to start providing the love, affection, caring, and friendship you need to YOURSELF. Stop worrying about him. He's a big, selfish boy. And if he needs help, he's already got a mama for that. YOU are the one who needs support right now. And you might not realize it yet, but you can provide quite a bit of it to yourself.

((hugs))

I've done really good today. But I was busy. I still consider it a win though..I busted his texts so I don't know when they come. He texted me to tell me his family doesn't give a shit about me and my side of the story and I missed it for almost 6 hrs. So that was good
Not going to lie. Nights are the hardest. Wondering what he's doing. Who he with. I have school work to do so I'm going to do that with some good background music and then maybe watch some Schitts Creek after. If y'all havent seen that show I highly recommend it. There's a few cheating issues but it's such a funny and dry humor show that it's almost non-triggering lol.

Everything for the kids.

The best way to help your kids is to stop modeling to them that the way to deal with an abusive spouse is to passively take it. Do you want one of your children to be treated by a future spouse the way you are treated? You're paving the way for that, the longer you model this for them. Children learn by observation, much more than they learn from words.

The book Women Who Love Too Much was another real eye opener for me. It's an older book, not too long and was spot on in quite a few area's.

I've been thinking about my situation and how some of the things that I am doing or have done can possibly help you out too.

A couple other terms that you may want to familiarize yourself with are spinning and spiraling. It pretty much means that your world in a moment feels like it is spinning or spiraling out of control. I am speaking from a layman's perspective because I lived this terrible reality on multiple occasions. Breaks my heart looking back on it but want to help you understand your situation better.

Usually something sets it off. For example, one night my deceased WH was drinking heavily. I mean he was pretty much blackout drunk. I don't think that he remembered what he did and how he treated me the night before. In fact, he didn't come home or even answer my calls. I was in a complete emotional and psychological shutdown mode.

Anyways, he was drunk DRUNK off his ass, pissed off and raging. I don't remember why but he was so angry. He got into his car and drove off into the night, drunk. Caused me to go into a severe terrifying panic attack meltdown. I was so afraid that either he would hit and kill someone or he would get into a car accident and hurt himself.

My world came crashing down in that moment and I began to have a pretty severe panic attack to the point I thought that I was dying. I reached out to a friend (who was also my Alanon Sponsor at the time) and she helped me to calm down to the point of realizing that I had no control over his behaviors. And he was going to do what he was going to do. She helped me to help my brain slow down and to stop spinning and spiraling. This incident also contributed to my PTSD and depression. I was NEVER depressed before. Hopefully, you also won't get to this point.

As I have stated in the past, you have a lot on your plate. But you are strong. Damn, I feel so bad for you. I just want your outcome to be different than mine was.

It seems like every little experience you have with your WH is negative and ugly and just adds more trauma to your brain and soul. You shouldn't have to be enduring this with your husband, of all things. A good and an emotionally happy marriage doesn't look like what he is doing to you.

Your WH is a sick and lost man just as mine was. And there really isn't anything you can do about it, just like I couldn't stop mine from driving off into the night while drunk.

Regardless of whatever his circumstances are, you can't save him and the longer you hold onto trying to fix and make things right for and with him, the longer you prolong your pain and injury. He needs to save himself. I took forever to learn this lesson too. And it's a decision that you need to make each day to let him go and to figure his own stuff out. It is a decision that will help lead you to action.

You will have slip-ups, just as I did today. I was determined and started my day out right and as my day wore on, I found myself slipping and wanting to crawl back into bed again. But I just tell myself that this is okay, I am allowed to have off days, just as you are allowed to have off and imperfect days too.

It's really okay if you cry, get angry with yourself (I've literally kicked myself in the butt lots of times because I got so mad at myself over some of the decisions or choices that I made regarding my deceased WH. Lol) But I also gave myself grace because I am only human and humans are allowed to make mistakes.

Now back to your WH. My thoughts are that you felt you messed up again by wanting him to come over and to help you out with the kids. Sounds innocent enough. But what you forgot to remember was that your WH is unreasonable. Maybe next time when something comes up where you want to engage with him, stop and think. What is the outcome you think is going to be like vs what the actual outcome is going to look like and not what you want it to be? Do you see him as coming over as a happy and helpful husband, father? Or a complete asshole and jerk? I know that I kept my rose colored glasses on for a very long time and only saw mine the way I wanted and hoped for him to be.

I want you to know, I'm not angry at my deceased WH much anymore (and not because he is dead. Dead or alive, I still get to feel how I want to feel about him). I am sad though. Who he was broke my heart.

What got me seeing him in a different light though is because I realized he was emotionally, psychologically & spiritually sick. He was an addict; alcoholic and sex addict. Obsessive/compulsive disorder. His illness was created due to his upbringing and having to endure alcoholism, emotional and physical abuse from his family. And then he became that way. His mom especially was extremely emotionally and physically abusive towards him. Sad. And his dad was disgusting too imo. He was an alcoholic pervert who thought objectifying women was the norm.

I am not making excuses for my deceased WH behavior and why "I" put up with it (That story can be for another day), I'm just saying that he was a sick man and this is why I am not feeling so much anger toward him (and for myself) anymore. And hopefully in time you will get there too.

There will be a light at the end of the dark tunnel that you are in. But you also got to work towards change to find that light. Change begins with you and facing you. What can you change about yourself and how you are handling you in your day to day life and tasks? And when a WH situation arises tomorrow because you know it will, how are you preparing yourself?

Start planning ahead and work on visualizing how you are going to take charge of yourself, your actions and make better decisions tomorrow. This is what coming out of codependency means, learning to take your focus off of trying to fix him and others and instead work towards fixing and bettering yourself.

One day at a time... yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not here yet but you have today. Focus on today to try and make things right for you and your kids. Make a plan for tomorrow when you cross paths with your WH. How are you going to handle it? Visualize yourself taking care of your business. You've got this. We are rooting for you. You can do it.

Knock knock. Who's there? WH, I'm coming in. No you're not, go away. We don't need you around today. Couldn't help myself. Lol

I've done really good today. But I was busy. I still consider it a win though..I busted his texts so I don't know when they come.

Sounds like you are beginning to get it. Good for you!

You know how they say life is made up of little moments. Well today there were two that I was so happy to see and then mad/sad my wh wasn't there to experience. First, our baby has hypotonia (low muscle tone) so even though he's almost 2 he's not a walker yet. Today he started standing up freely and walking. Until now he would pull up on something and walk, fall and then crawl. Today he started standing up on his own in the middle of the floor to walk! It's a huge step (no pun intended lol) for him!!
Second, again our baby was playing, and it's so amazing to see how much they change. And today he took all of his wooden zoo animals and lined them on the little edge of the fire place. It's like...a 1 inch wide spot so it took some serious focus and motor skills. He is just now getting to the point of that independent focused play. It was incredible to watch. And I was sitting on the steps, enjoying a glass of wine, and the house was calm and my kids were safe and happy and for just a moment, I felt at peace. It was nice not worrying about my wh being grumpy because another weekend has come where we couldn't get a date night so he goes out without me. Or he's already drunk and I'm just trying to avoid him so he doesn't expect sloppy drunk sex. I wasn't ending the day stressed about how much money we spent. Or how much we will spend tomorrow. It's the most relaxed I've been in a long time.

The more he is not in your face all the time, the more you will start to see that he is not worth it. I really hope you have many more peaceful days coming up!

I'm glad that you had a moment of peace, Elle2. Those moments surely don't seem to last very long do they. But when they do come along, gives me hope for a better future.

Or he's already drunk and I'm just trying to avoid him so he doesn't expect sloppy drunk sex.

Tell him that he is not welcome and needs to stay away when he has been drinking or drunk. The kid's especially don't need to deal with their dad acting out under the influence.

Alcohol causes the inhibitions to become practically nonexistent. And your kid's have already had enough turmoil and dysfunction in their lives. They need to see their dad sober and respectful when he comes for a visit.

I would insist upon this. It was one of the best boundaries I put down when I was going through this with mine.

Elle,how are you?

I thought that he would at least have the decency to come clean. [/quote

I said that to my WH when I uncovered some information on DD1. "At least give me the decency and dignity to tell me the truth". He didn't, just minimised and lied and I had to investigate and find information. I don't think the word "decency" fits into a WS vocabulary. So sorry that you are in this position. I remember well the new discovery that led to DD2 and just the trauma of more betrayal but still lies, trickle truths.

You are worth the decency and dignity to the truth - they are just not always decent or dignified people to do it.

[This message edited by getbusyliving at 7:53 AM, Friday, May 13th]

Just here to +1 the comment by getbusyliving. I said the exact same things and the exact same thing happened. Lies and trickle truth. He only admitted what I already knew. He has never offered up truth on his own.

getbusyliving said: You are worth the decency and dignity to the truth - they are just not always decent or dignified people to do it.

She's right. You are worth decency and dignity to the truth.

I wish you all the best!

Hello all. Sorry to have fallen off! I really needed to get back to focusing on school and the kids. I love this site but it was getting obsessive lol. It is always a good distraction. We had two friends die on the same day (unrelated, they didn't even know each other) from alcoholism related illnesses. They were both in their early 40s so it's been a bit of a shit show. NC obviously went out the window when that happened. But I'm working back towards it. School is just so hard to focus on still. I'm mailing it in so to speak, and have a 10 page paper to write. I'm struggling to keep up. But I'm good with all that being said. I appreciate coming back and seeinf everyone's kind words and checking in on me!

I'm sorry about your friends.

NC obviously went out the window when that happened. But I'm working back toward it

This will sound cold..but why "obviously"?

He has fired you from being his wife,and has been rather abusive since he left. Why would you need to be in contact with him due to the deaths? He is still involved with another woman. He isn't your friend. You need to seek support from your mom, and other friends. Not him. And he certainly shouldn't be seeking support from you.

I know I'm being blunt. But part of separation/divorce is he is no longer someone to lean on. And vice versa.

He was the one who originally found out about the deaths and informed me. He was also the one that got all of the info for services etc. I didn’t want to bother and add myself to the notification list. It didn’t cause any problems. Things were pretty cordial. But now that the dust has settled it’s pretty much back to normal. Kids and finances when necessary.
I do have a question. Have y’all ever used an online therapist? I want to get into counseling and I think online is my only option for now and I’ve seen some great things about them. I actually did a paper on the future of mental health telehealth services like…. 8 years ago so it makes me so happy to see. But I’m lost on which is better yet affordable. Any suggestions? In Person just isn’t an option and the kids will be out for summer next week so it will be impossible otherwise.

My husband sees a therapist online as well as a separate psychiatrist/prescriber for medication. He loves it. He's been with the same therapist for a year and is now starting to really dig deep into childhood trauma. The first year was spent focusing on emotional regulation after a concussion caused him to start experiencing rage fits which allowed him to be able to remember and acknowledge the trauma better. He just recently added the prescription component for ADHD which he was diagnosed with in childhood but MIL refused to get treatment for. I don't know how it is finding someone who is infidelity focused - husband is not why I came here - but IME therapy for trauma through this medium has been great. His service has an app component where he can message his therapist directly and record journal entries to talk about with her later. It's also easy to change therapists.

The online experience deprives all parties of some of the non-verbal communications that are received when in the presence of one another. Not doing online therapy deprives all parties of all communications.

There's only one way to find out if the online version will work for you. I'd give it and opportunity for at least 3 strikes (if you know something about baseball)....

I don't mean to be dismissive. I know it's not easy to seek therapy, much less to find a good therapist with openings. If you want to change, though, finding an IC who can and will help is worth the effort.