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Respectful dialogue about Covid

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truthsetmefree ( member #7168) posted at 8:45 PM on Saturday, January 8th, 2022

Do you understand that the kind of censorship needed on this level would involved the complicity of scientists everywhere? The vast majority (I'd guess upwards of 95%) of scientists involved in the discovery and production of these vaccines are fully vaccinated, because they are directly involved with the research, or know how to discern between credible science and disreputable science.

Do you understand how censorship and "complicity of scientists everywhere" is actually not connected? You need only a few politically appointed "experts" backed by politically geared health institutes to set the narrative. These are the people you "give the microphone to". From there you censor and discredit the credentials of all dissenting voices.

Any good science requires that you isolate a variable. Even if your guess of a majority of doctors being vaccinated were actually proven, you cannot make the conclusion that their vaccination status is proof of their belief in any aspect of the vaccine. Not when you have mandates, administrative protocol, and societal pressure.

The junk data has been an issue from the inception of this pandemic - at least in the states. From the wild over-estimation of predicted deaths in the early days, to the broad qualifications of what constitutes a covid death, to the covid patients forced into nursing homes that drove up those numbers. It's only further complicated by hospitals being financially incentivized to admit covid patients, treat them with remdesivir, put them on a vent and be paid when they die. WTH are we not incentivizing hospitals for successful treatments...for patients that are recovered? Add to that the therapeutics with long safety records which are now virtually impossible to get - even if doctors are wanting to prescribe them, pharmacies are refusing to fill them (which is a whole other legal issue). Surely there's enough here to raise reasonable questions that need answers.

Hope has two beautiful daughters; their names are Anger and Courage. Anger at the way things are, and Courage to see that they do not remain as they are. ~ Augustine of Hippo

posts: 8870   ·   registered: May. 18th, 2005
id 8708568

number4 ( member #62204) posted at 8:58 PM on Saturday, January 8th, 2022

Do you understand how censorship and "complicity of scientists everywhere" is actually not connected?

But the level of censorship involved would be premised on the scientists staying silent, when they know otherwise. A large majority of our friends are scientists, in pharmaceutical research. I can guarantee you that, if any one of them were in knowledge of data being censored, where that data indicates great harm was being done, they would speak out, and support their evidence with studies that can be replicated. Pharmaceutical scientists are not driven by the almighty dollar, and good ones would have no problem landing a job elsewhere if they became a whistleblower. Deep in their souls, they do the work they do because they want to help people with their health conditions. If they saw that being abused, and thought it was harming people, they would speak up.

Me: BW
Him: WH
Married - 30+ years
Two adult daughters
1st affair: 2005-2007
2nd-4th affairs: 2016-2017
Many assessments/polygraph: no sex addiction
Status: R

posts: 1032   ·   registered: Jan. 10th, 2018   ·   location: Southern California
id 8708572

whatisloveanyway ( member #66450) posted at 9:35 PM on Saturday, January 8th, 2022

To add to what number4 said about Scientific Methodology, there is also methodology to journalism and research and there is a reason reporters vet their sources and newspapers fact check before they run stories. My children were taught critical analysis of information sources in High School, to consider the source of information and be on the lookout for misinformation, bias or ulterior motives in the information they consume. It has helped them to stay educated and not misinformed. The internet is the wild west of misinformation, garbage and huge time sinks of manipulative marketing crap. The allure of the conspiracy theory or "the truth is out there and they are hiding it from us" is strong, but misguided. The truth is the truth as far as science goes. We haven't had a lot of time to do the science of COVID 19 and it's many mutations justice, but we have a strong background to work from. Nothing is being made up as we go along except the politicized and polarizing attempts to control the spread of the virus and the misinformation about it.

My thoughts and some data as respectfully and succinctly as my science brain* can put it:

The Nature News made my skin crawl. Among the front page articles: Zombie apocalypse from the vaccine, microchip implantations are inevitable, Vaccine AIDS... This is not a scholarly unbiased publication, and in my estimation it is inflammatory noise. As to the Lancet, a respected, peer reviewed medical journal, I'm still searching for ANYTHING on VAIDS in the infectious disease news or archives. I haven't found a scholarly reference yet, but I'm getting a lot of hits for what I call garbage links. If anyone wants to share data I am missing I would appreciate it.

Also from the Lancet: " The genesis of variants, such as omicron, are (in part) the result of our unequal response to COVID-19. The large portions of the global population that remain unvaccinated present the greatest risk for mutations and evolution of SARS-CoV-2."

From the Wiley Library of Medical Virology: The term "variant of concern" (VOC) for SARS-CoV-2 (which produces COVID-19) refers to viral variants with mutations in their spike protein receptor-binding domain (RBD) that dramatically improve binding affinity in the RBD-hACE2 complex while also causing fast dissemination in human populations.......The Omicron variation includes 30 mutations in the Spike protein. The spike protein variants undergo mutation by interaction with human ACE2 protein. "

Humans are hosting and mutating the virus in pockets all around the globe, then travelling through airports re-infecting new areas over and over. The virus is moving fast, mutating quickly and challenging our efforts to stay ahead with vaccines. I could write pages on the complexity of FDA regulations as they apply to certification of disinfectants, and those same rules and guidelines apply to vaccines. As complex as everything can get at the Federal level, I trust the process and the scientific rigor of those behind the scenes. Or at least I did until we had a purging of the brain trust to "drain the swamp" for political gain over qualifications and competency. What a perfectly poorly timed storm.

I'm going with the data and science I can vet, my doctor's recommendations and the advice of my medical professional friends in the US, Canada and the UK, not to mention my gut. My Doctor is livid at the politicization of this MEDICAL issue and says regardless of where you stand on an acceptable risk of death in a population - one vs two percent, or perceived risk vs influenza, everyone is ignoring the horror of the downstream inflammatory response the survivors of COVID will be dealing with for years. This will cripple families and our economy with the burden of caring for the downstream problems we are just beginning to see.....

I get that all of this sucks, our infrastructure is being stressed to its limits, businesses are failing, families are suffering and people are dying when they did not have to. These are trying times. Add in manipulative, biased, angry, ill informed or malicious misinformation on the internet and it is a HOT MESS. When in doubt, in the US, watch any of the network news sites, because they still practice a shred of JOURNALISM to vet information before submitting it in public. News from google searches or social media sites often isn't worth the bits and bytes it's made of without checking who wrote it and why.

As to those who won't vaccinate or mask to protect themselves and others, the data on how the virus is transmitted, who is living and who is dying is indisputable at this point. I am past trying to reason with or find common ground with extremists on either side of this discussion, because it is hopeless. Regardless, I truly wish for all to stay safe and healthy, and for our hospitals and economies and societies to hold up under the crush of this awful pandemic. History books are going to have a lot to say about what happened to our world in the 2020's. Interestingly, neurobiology research shows that affiliation with our two party political system is identifiable with over 80% accuracy in MRI brain scans. Our polar divisions on the decision to vaccinate appear to correspond highly with political affiliation, so it seems we are wired differently, period. There is not much middle ground to be found amid the noise and I'm beginning to think that this may be the brink of a major socio-biological evolutionary tipping point. I really hope I am wrong.

A few articles on monoclonal antibody efficacy caught my eye, which makes the availability of them as treatments and whether or not they are being withheld or just supply problems a moot point without early detection and the ability to test the patient for neutralising anti-SARS-CoV-2 antibodies, which roughly half of the study patients had:

"In addition to the overall null results reported here for sotrovimab and BRII-196 plus BRII-198, previous trials of bamlanivimab12 and casirivimab plus imdevimab23 have also reported null results for the overall population of patients hospitalised with COVID-19. However, evidence is emerging that patients hospitalised with COVID-19 without endogenous anti-SARS-CoV-2 antibodies might benefit from neutralising monoclonal antibody therapy. In our study, approximately 301 (58%) of 513 patients were negative for neutralising anti-SARS-CoV-2 antibodies at the time of randomisation and, among these patients, point estimates suggested treatment with BRII-196 plus BRII-198 could potentially be beneficial..."

I could go on and on and on..... but enough.

* My factual and belief base: a career in analytical laboratories and process quality assurance, human health and safety monitoring at the state and federal level and a life long obsession with research and a secret desire to be an answer desk librarian. I know a thing or three about data quality, accuracy vs. precision, research methodologies, standard analytical practices, documentation and paper trails, not to mention government oversight and guidelines. I have a healthy respect for things I can't see, like microbes, viruses, parasites, toxic chemicals, radioactive contamination, COVID and human bias.

[This message edited by whatisloveanyway at 9:39 PM, Saturday, January 8th]

BW: 62 WH: 62 Both 57 on Dday, M 35 years, 2 grown kids. WH had 9 year A with MOW, 7 month false R, multiple DDays, years of trickle truth.
I got rid of her with one email. Reconciling, but the lies have piled up. Trying one more time, again.

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id 8708577

OwningItNow ( member #52288) posted at 10:21 PM on Saturday, January 8th, 2022

Another legit question: If we do not trust (or want to trust) medical experts unless they are 1000% sure and faultless, why are people going to the hospital/medical professionals when they DO get sick with Covid (after rejecting their advice to vaccinate)? If you don't believe that they want to help you or save you with vaccines, why do you go to them when you can't breathe? I just don't get it.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 10:22 PM, Saturday, January 8th]

me: BS/WSh: WS/BS

Reject the rejector. Do not reject yourself.

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 Want2BHappyAgain (original poster member #45088) posted at 10:54 PM on Saturday, January 8th, 2022

Bon Dieu!!! I had no idea this thread went this far! I will address what was asked of me first. If I have failed to answer any question I apologize. I didn't read everything on every post.

You keep pushing the monoclonal antibodies, but even months ago, in our large metropolitan area, they were being rationed. It is in fantasyland, that around here, you could just walk in and ask for them. My doctor told me the hoops he tried to jump through to get them for one of his patients who had co-morbidities, and he was told the patient wasn't 'sick' enough, although he was having raging symptoms. Yes, that's only one direct anecdote that I heard, but I've read in our local news that they have been difficult to find. They are triaging who gets them... meaning, clinics and hospitals are deciding whether you are eligible. It's just not realistic around our metro area to walk into any clinic or hospital and ask for them; this is how it's been for months, not just in the last couple of weeks.

So it's not a panacea, at least not around our 10 million metro area.

Why do you think it is a fantasyland? When Hurricane Ida hit...the normal protocol of getting a doctor's order went out the window for us because most of the businesses were closed for weeks. It was changed to where all we had to do was walk up with a positive test result and we were given the infusion. It was then that I learned from a family member about the monoclonal antibody subcutaneous injection for people who were exposed but not testing positive for Covid. That was amazing to me grin !

I have seen Dr. Giroir state where these monoclonal antibody treatments were PLENTIFUL in ALL 50 states. This was before the vaccines were even available...IN WHY weren't they ramped up? One state in particular made sure these infusions were readily available to everyone and they were WORKING. The federal government then decided they were going to ration these treatments because Delta may cause an increase in hospitalizations look . That made NO sense to ration something that WORKED. Don't RATION what works...make MORE of them.

What is your knowledge/understanding of who makes these monoclonal treatments? Or HOW they are made? Or how LONG it takes to make them?I read the same statements that you posted so nicely in the other post smile . I don't know how long it takes to make them anymore than I know how long it takes to make the vaccines. All I KNOW is that they WORK WELL if given within 10 days of symptoms. So it shouldn't matter how LONG it takes to make them...they SHOULD be made as a therapeutic that will keep our hospitals out of the critical stage that they find themselves in now. These treatments have been around BEFORE the my question is WHY weren't they ramped up for everyone?

Do you believe the govt is just stockpiling them and not giving out all they have?

I don't believe that.

Do do believe the the vast majority of scientists who have said evidence shows 2 of the 3 treatments are not effective against Omicron are lying to the public about the ineffectiveness?

That part has me puzzled. IF the vaccines work against the spike proteins in the virus...JUST LIKE 2 out of 3 of the monoclonal antibody treatments...then WHY keep pushing for people to get vaccines? Is it maybe a different spike protein? I do have questions about this that I haven't seen a good answer for yet.

Turns out that before the 9/21 changes, more than 70% of all treatments were going to a mere SEVEN states (TN, AL, MS, FL, GA, LA & Tx), only three of which are in the top 10 by population (Tx, Fl, GA), and including MS, which is #35 - out of 50 - in population (my state - which is not on that list, has more than 2x the pop of MS). So, I can absolutely understand why someone who lived in those 7 states would feel short changed - and I suppose the reality is they were, bc their allocation likely decreased. BUT, shouldn't those in the other 43 states, who were sharing the remaining 30% of the doses, have access to their share as well? Or do you disagree that these treatments are in VERY limited supply? or that the govt can somehow force more doses to be made quickly?

These allocations were very MUCH decreased...which...again...begs to question WHY not make MORE? The federal government's explanation was NOT to allocate them to the other 43 was...according to an HHS spokesperson..."to ensure our supply of these life-saving therapies remains available for all states and territories, not just some." At THIS point...2.17 million doses of monoclonal antibodies had been shipped to all sites, and 938,000 doses had been used since December. About 43% of the distributed doses had been used AT THIS POINT. LESS THAN HALF...yet the federal government wanted to RATION it? WHY???

I have NO DOUBT that you are being respectful gmc94 smile . I REALLY appreciate you looking up the statistics show some of the things I have been writing about. Thank you for that smile . I am very puzzled as to WHAT HAPPENED with regards to these monoclonal antibody infusions not being available to MY state when Delta is still very rampant here.

Omicron has not produced ONE death yet from what I am reading. There is a man in Houston who had the Omicron variant when he died...but the actual cause of death has yet to be determined by the epidemiologists. I saw on Fox News a little while ago that NYU medical center stated that 65% of their patients who have the Omicron variant did not come in because of Covid. Omicron has come and gone in Africa without a major spike in deaths. There is HOPE here everyone smile .

Gotta go eat supper now!! ENJOY y'alls weekend...and thanks for the respectful dialogue smile !!! Y'all are AWESOME!!!

A "perfect marriage" is just two imperfect people who refuse to give up on each other.

With God ALL things are possible (Matthew 19:26)

I AM happy again...It CAN happen!!!

From respect comes great love...sassylee

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id 8708588

DevastatedDee ( member #59873) posted at 11:24 PM on Saturday, January 8th, 2022

Omicron has not produced ONE death yet from what I am reading.

I would have to ask what you're reading because I googled "how many people have died of Omicron" and got numbers.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 12:05 AM, Sunday, January 9th]

DDay: 06/07/2017
MH - RA on DDay.
Divorced a serial cheater (prostitutes and lord only knows who and what else).

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DevastatedDee ( member #59873) posted at 11:32 PM on Saturday, January 8th, 2022

They also match the narrative, so I’m sure they’d be accepted without question.

As best I can tell, "the narrative" is that a lot of people die from COVID and that vaccines help protect us against dying from COVID.

This seems to align with actual reality. Reality isn't a narrative. It isn't a belief system. It is or it isn't. This isn't even a hard one to see in real life. It's the reality that surrounds us. We all are right here living in it.

I am not an easily gaslit person. I have almost no capacity for "faith". I don't lead with my emotions. I don't do well with cognitive dissonance. Fuck, maybe I'm on the spectrum for all I know. What I do know is that when science matches observable reality, it's going to take A LOT for me to disbelieve both science and observable reality and send myself down a rabbit hole to believing things that aren't logical and rational.

DDay: 06/07/2017
MH - RA on DDay.
Divorced a serial cheater (prostitutes and lord only knows who and what else).

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whatisloveanyway ( member #66450) posted at 11:47 PM on Saturday, January 8th, 2022

Ditto to what DevastatedDee said...our brain scans would probably match. BTW, I'm definitely on the spectrum.

BW: 62 WH: 62 Both 57 on Dday, M 35 years, 2 grown kids. WH had 9 year A with MOW, 7 month false R, multiple DDays, years of trickle truth.
I got rid of her with one email. Reconciling, but the lies have piled up. Trying one more time, again.

posts: 396   ·   registered: Oct. 9th, 2018   ·   location: Southeastern USA
id 8708595

sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 12:17 AM on Sunday, January 9th, 2022

The numbers I've seen show that the unvaxed group is getting Cocid-19 at 5 times the rate of vaxed people, and unvaxed are dying at 13 (thirteen) times the rate of vaxed people. (NY Times - in print and on their website)

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex ap
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
You don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

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DevastatedDee ( member #59873) posted at 12:29 AM on Sunday, January 9th, 2022

Just in my state, 91% of those who died of COVID in 2021 were unvaccinated/not fully vaccinated.

The North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services on Tuesday reported that more than 90 percent of people who died of COVID-19 deaths in the state this year were not fully vaccinated.

Put another way, 9 percent of those who died of COVID in the state since Jan. 1 were fully vaccinated, so-called breakthrough cases.

In all, 11,066 people have died of COVID in North Carolina in 2021. Since the pandemic began, more than 19,000 have died in the state. Of that number, 993 came in people who had been fully vaccinated, DHHS data shows.

I can trust the Department of Health and Human Services or I can assume they're lying because....why? The why gets me stuck. Why they and every single other government or scientific agency would lie about this is where I just don't follow. That I've known a fair few unvaccinated people die and not one vaccinated helps lend credence to this, but my anecdotal experience alone isn't what I base my acceptance of this on.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 12:35 AM, Sunday, January 9th]

DDay: 06/07/2017
MH - RA on DDay.
Divorced a serial cheater (prostitutes and lord only knows who and what else).

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id 8708605

pureheartkit ( member #62345) posted at 2:27 AM on Sunday, January 9th, 2022

I feel that we're all participating in a huge experiment. Time will answer many 9f our questions.

For me, I say each person make the best decision you can.

No one should be forced to lose a job or citizen rights because they ask for bodily autonomy.

I do not like the censorship of voices trying to debate this. Let each person talk and we'll evaluate it. More speech is always beneficial.

Follow the money and look at who stands to benefit.

Ask why more early therapies and medicines aren't being promoted. The hospitals don't need to be full. Why aren't there more hospitals/ beds anyway?

I am not anti Vax. Everyone who wants one should have one. I am anti mandate. I am anti' Vax id cards'.

I'm very sad about the deaths from covid. I am concerned about injury and possible harm as we go forward with new technologies. Our bodies are beautifully designed. Let's talk first about ways to help our bodies with vit c, d, zinc and lowering excess weight, cutting sugar intake, exercise and then about early remedies before things get bad enough to be hospitalized. We have many things we can use to fight this. The fear is real and understandable however, we know more than we did. It's not anyone's fault except anyone who deliberately misleads for profit.

Thank you everyone for your wisdom and healing.

posts: 2365   ·   registered: Jan. 19th, 2018
id 8708620

BraveSirRobin ( Guide #69242) posted at 2:31 AM on Sunday, January 9th, 2022

And this is the other thing: scientists would have to be lying internationally. If there's really a conspiracy to harm the world with vaccines, governments that can't agree the sky is blue would all need to be in on it, and willing to kill vast numbers of their own citizens to accomplish it.


posts: 2840   ·   registered: Dec. 27th, 2018
id 8708621

BraveSirRobin ( Guide #69242) posted at 2:39 AM on Sunday, January 9th, 2022

Follow the money and look at who stands to benefit.

Why is making money inherently nefarious?


posts: 2840   ·   registered: Dec. 27th, 2018
id 8708624

truthsetmefree ( member #7168) posted at 3:02 AM on Sunday, January 9th, 2022

Why is making money inherently nefarious?

The point is not so much that making money is inherently nefarious. It’s that making money can be nefariously motivating.

And it’s also not that everyone involved is nefariously motivated, it’s that the powers that make the decisions and drive the focus may be.

An example of this in a different context is Amy Robach that tried to break the Epstein story years before but was shut down by the powers that be at her network.

Hope has two beautiful daughters; their names are Anger and Courage. Anger at the way things are, and Courage to see that they do not remain as they are. ~ Augustine of Hippo

posts: 8870   ·   registered: May. 18th, 2005
id 8708627

BraveSirRobin ( Guide #69242) posted at 3:15 AM on Sunday, January 9th, 2022

So aside from the question of "maybe I'm just crazy"...the alternative piece I have to resolve is - "if I'm not crazy, do I bring you (relatively speaking) to this same conclusion? I know nothing to actually DO about is it even kind to do that? It's just, damn it...sometimes I'm caught between desperately wanting someone to explain away this thing that now makes so much sense (and is subsequently terrifying) vs. if you can't, will you please just come sit with me in it? Because I'm fucking more than just merely concerned.

This is the most touching thing I've ever read from someone on the other side of the vaccination debate.

I would be open to going down the rabbit hole, but here's my concern. The most difficult thing I've encountered in reaching common ground to even discuss COVID is the inability to agree on sources. I trust the New York Times. I trust the Washington Post. I trust them because they have a long history, over a century, of hiring journalists who have trained in the craft. If you get a big story wrong at the NYT, it's the end of your career, and everyone there knows it. They have legions of fact checkers to prevent that from happening.

But if I cite the NYT, or other sources with a proven history, I often hear, "Oh! Well, if they said that, then I know I can't believe it, lol." Why? I'm honestly asking. If it's not motivated by confirmation bias, why rule out these sources? If there's evidence of collusion or wrongdoing, lay it out for me. Hell, lay it out for one of their competitors. I would think that any paper running verifiable evidence of a vaccination conspiracy would win the Pulitzer Prize. But if it's just rumor, then no, I won't agree that these sources are untrustworthy. It goes against everything I know from both studies and personal experience. And that's usually where I hit an impasse.


posts: 2840   ·   registered: Dec. 27th, 2018
id 8708629

truthsetmefree ( member #7168) posted at 4:07 AM on Sunday, January 9th, 2022

This is the most touching thing I've ever read from someone on the other side of the vaccination debate.

Thank you SO much for this, BSR. I truly don't need anyone to agree with just helps so very much to feel like someone understands that I'm struggling too.

The source issue is most frustrating piece. The money trail I mentioned earlier is a constant issue. And it's not unique to any singular perspective.

I have a video that I can PM you if you'd like. It's what started me down the rabbit hole that specifically regards the money trail. I think it's rather straight forward/factual in that aspect...but it does draw some conclusions toward the end. In full disclosure, I also had some prior potential biases before I originally watched it so even though I've watched it multiple times trying to root any of those out, I can't promise that I didn't miss them.

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 4:07 AM, Sunday, January 9th]

Hope has two beautiful daughters; their names are Anger and Courage. Anger at the way things are, and Courage to see that they do not remain as they are. ~ Augustine of Hippo

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id 8708640

gmc94 ( Guide #62810) posted at 7:20 AM on Sunday, January 9th, 2022

W2B - I had a whole post written and then accidentally closed the tab mad

So - a couple of things. First, I would encourage you to look at the weekly amounts distributed (can't remember if it's on NIH or CDC site, but that data is there). The 9/2021 change was to distribute based on # of cases and use.

So - why isn't there more? The first thing is that the gov't doesn't make it - private manufacturers do (and getting into whether the govt should exercise it's emergency powers over private biz, like it did with steel and other goods in WWII is a whole other political debate that would not only be against SI guidelines, but IMHO doesn't really do jack to help those of us trying to get to a clearer understanding about the current status quo).

And that leaves the question why the manufacturers haven't produced more - which I suspect is more complicated. I have NO reason to believe that the manufacturers and the scientists and the govt (top to bottom) are not all doing the best they can to make/distribute the drugs, just as they have been since the pandemic, whether it's PPE or vaccines or treatments. My hunch - and only that - is that back in 2020 and early 2021, the focus was on predominantly vaccines and just about everyone assumed a much lower level of hesitancy, and a corresponding lower demand for treatment, than has panned out (IOW, why ramp up researching, creating, testing, and production of VERY expensive treatments, when once the cheap vaccine arrives, nearly everyone will take it and there won't be much need/demand?). I hope we can all agree that the PRIMARY focus in 2020 WAS vaccine... yes, folks were looking at treatment, but it sure seems to me that was more secondary to the vaccine (which - at least at the time - made sense to me). Again, my hunch, but I do remember interviews in the early days and factories being VERY reluctant to spend the capital to ramp up more "easy" things, e.g., PPE production, to have great sales for a short time that would then go away... and we did see that with tests, the production of which slowed down as the vax rolled out, and left a ton of folks in the lurch when delta hit (I think last June Abbott laid off it's test factory workers and DESTROYED test materials after the vax rolled out and the demand had gone down - RIGHT before Delta hit).

In any event, there is a June 2020 paper (updated in 8/2020) from the health policy research folks at Duke University about monoclonal production (this was before the EUA was issued in Nov 2020 for use on Covid patients). One interesting thing I learned was about 53m monoclonal doses were sold in 2019 - PRE COVID (and 25% of those were for cancer/oncology). That paper, at that time, estimated the need for about 25m doses for Covid (or 50% more). Of that estimate, only ~25k would be for hospitalized patients, <1m for non-hospitalized, symptomatic patients, and 20m for folks exposed/healthcare, etc (prophylactic doses). While it has been 18months from this paper, the US is about to hit 60m confirmed cases (305m worldwide), which does not include folks that were never tested (whether symptomatic or not, or the discrepancies in reporting PCR vs antigen tests - in 2/2021 positive non-PCR tests in CA, CO, MD, MO, and NE were not reported as positive OR EVEN "probable" covid cases, despite the CDC recommendation to do so, e.g., if you had all the symptoms and had a positive antigen test, those states did not "count" it in their data).

the paper also says that a SHORT time to set up one (of the 2) types of facility is 18 months, but that type has a smaller capacity. They go on to say: "Another alternative is restoring facilities no longer in use. However, the availability of such facilities and what it would take to restore them to operating status is unclear, and they are unlikely to be available in the short term". They went on to say it was expected that US manufacturing would increase by 6% by Jan 2021 (and this part was a little confusing, as they anticipate 12% increase "within the next six months" the "bulk" of which would be in Europe). And another 6-8% would come online in the US, and 6-8% in the EU, between 2022 and 2024.

Johns Hopkins also did a Nov 2020 interview with Arturo Casadevall, chair of the Department of Molecular Microbiology and Immunology, that discusses the then-status of the antibodies and some of the production issues. This reminded me of when there were calls for folks who had recovered from Covid to provide plasma as a potential treatment. The effectiveness had spotty results (last month the WHO recommended against it), BUT just before Xmas Dr. Casadevall from Johns-Hopkins gave interviews in conjunction with the release of a Johns-Hopkins study (he was one of the authors) that was promising, and said he hoped the EUA for plasma treatment was extended (their data apparently showed it can help outcomes if given EARLY).

Also, the folks at Regeneron recently said they believe they have a monoclonal that will be effective vs Omicron, but will take months to get it authorized & shipped. And, I wonder if production will be shifted to combat Omicron at the expense of producing monoclonal that worked for prior variants, and how much use will it even be if Omicron sweeps through the US and rest of the world as quickly as it peaked/dwindled in SoAfrica (tho who knows if it will recede in North AM and Europe like it did in So Africa, given climate differences/we will be in the cold months for awhile yet)

I couldn't really find much on what happened with manufacturing monoclonals between 08/2020 and today, other than the US govt has ordered/purchased/pre-purchased millions of doses (and I have NO reason to believe we aren't buying as much as we can, as I assume these companies also have deals with other nations - like our friends to the North in Canada).

Anyhow, thought I'd share what I've learned. The treatment side still seems like a lot of whack-a-mole, and have strong concerns about what the next variant may bring, and how many will lose their lives

[This message edited by gmc94 at 7:37 AM, Sunday, January 9th]

M >25yrs/grown kids
DD1 1994 ONS prostitute
DD2 2018 exGF1 10+yrEA & 10yrPA... + exGF2 EA forever & "made out" 2017
9/18 WH hung himself- died but revived

It's rude to say "I love you" with a mouthful of lies

posts: 3824   ·   registered: Feb. 22nd, 2018
id 8708657

EllieKMAS ( member #68900) posted at 8:26 AM on Sunday, January 9th, 2022

I got vaccinated. One, because I'm fat and I smoke and I really don't want to catch covid. Two, because ME vaccinating myself and following CDC guidelines protects other people. Much as I dislike a lot of humans, I don't want someone's immuno-compromised kid to catch covid because I am an unknowing carrier and coughed near their dad in the grocery store.

As to the whole "mystery chemicals" thing... I ask this. Do you know what's in your toothpaste? Or your shampoo? Or the crackers you like? Or your breakfast cereal? Your multi vitamin? My guess is at least one of those (among many other things) you use or ingest all the time with NO idea what's in it and no concern whatsoever in so doing. So why are people so darn hung up on the whole 'I don't know what's in the vaccine' thing? I'm asking honestly because I really just don't get it.

The mask debate. My feelings about it can best be illustrated by this.

While it's true that no mask can prevent transmission 100%, it's also true that if everyone wears one the risk of transmission is significantly reduced for all of us. It's late here so I don't have the brain capacity at the mo to track it down, but there was an excellent article on this I read in early autumn 2020 by either propublica or wa post that cited peer-reviewed science sources about mask wearing. If I remember I'll try to track it down.

I trust the scientific community. I trust that the vast majority of them on the frontlines are trying their damndest to develop effective vaccines and combat dangerous misinformation. And I trust science because the majority of it is based on empirical evidence and fact, not feelings and beliefs.

Gonvermental conspiracies I'd believe a lot more in countries like Sweden that have a government that actually, ya know, works. Not getting into a political debate cus guidelines, but last I checked it seems like the bulk of Americans I know don't trust hardly any of our leaders. The amount of people that would have to be involved in some of the conspiracies I've seen floating around... Yeah I just don't think the us govt runs anywhere near well enough to make that a feasible reality. Just my 0.02.

I know that there are some folks who have legit medical reasons why they cannot be vaccinated, and it's for their protection that I am. For me it's pretty simple tho: wear a mask, avoid large gatherings, wash your hands, and get the vaccine if you're medically able to do so. The sooner we get a majority of people doing that, the sooner covid can fuck all the way off.

[This message edited by EllieKMAS at 8:27 AM, Sunday, January 9th]

"No, it's you mothafucka, here's a list of reasons why." – Iliza Schlesinger

"The love that you lost isn't worth what it cost and in time you'll be glad that it's gone." – Linkin Park

posts: 3517   ·   registered: Nov. 22nd, 2018   ·   location: CO
id 8708660

HFSSC ( member #33338) posted at 1:53 PM on Sunday, January 9th, 2022


I posted these earlier with permission. Can’t post the links but these are very easy sources to find.

My top three sources are Dear Pandemic, Your Local Epidemiologist and Friendly Neighbor Epidemiologist. All three sites are staffed by epidemiologists who are not working in government agencies nor supported by the pharmaceutical industry.

All three sites are great at bringing the science down to real world level, but they also include sources for every statement so that people who do want to read the actual paper or article can do so.

Me, 54
Him, 45 (JMSSC)
Married 24 years. Reconciled.

posts: 4755   ·   registered: Sep. 12th, 2011   ·   location: South Carolina
id 8708676

million pieces ( member #27539) posted at 3:31 PM on Sunday, January 9th, 2022

Warning, this might be long. This is my story from the front lines. I am a nutrition support dietitian, I work in a ICU at a moderately size teaching hospital in the mid Atlantic region . It is part of a larger group of hospitals, one of 13. It is the second largest hospital in the system. I’m currently in a state of emergency with crisis staffing at my hospital. As of yesterday, more than 50% of the patients in our hospital with Covid positive. You don’t get admitted for Covid unless you were requiring oxygen. We have around 60-70 people intubated. It isn’t like we are admitting every patient that is a positive. When I got a positive on my Covid test last Thursday I was told to come in to work the next day as long as I didn’t have a fever or diarrhea. I just have to wear a N 95 mask 100% of the time from when I get out of my car. I am fully vaccinated and boosted. I am not asymptomatic.

I have been crunching numbers for the last several weeks with our ICU admissions. It’s a little difficult because we’ve had to open up three additional spaces for vented patients. But from opening all the ICU charts over the past several weeks, the overwhelming majority of patients are unvaccinated. The few that are fully vaccinated, mostly did not get their booster. And every single one in the ICU that has gotten the vaccine and booster, are very sick people to begin with. Again the vast majority of the intubated horribly sick patients at my hospital are unvaccinated.

About the monoclonal antibodies, we do not do that at our hospital right now because there has been very little demonstrated affect for people who are very sick already. They used it some of our lower level hospitals/centers and from what I heard is they had pretty good affect. But the data over the last two years in our hospital system did not show any help to the already sick/needing oxygen.

Everyone vaccinated or not should be very very worried about the healthcare right now. We are tired, pissed and very few of us that have any sympathy left over at all. I have a bleeding sore on my nose because because of the "personal liberty" of people. I’m working, feeling like crap, taking care of people who don’t believe in Covid, don’t believe in the vaccine, don’t trust the government etc. When I hear people talking about how hospitals are making money off of Covid and that could be an incentive, I don’t know whether to cry or to slap them. I don’t know of a single provider, Nurse, dietitian, respiratory therapist, speech pathologist, etc …. that doesn’t just want to quit. All want this to end. No one wants to prolong anything.

What about all those patients who don’t have Covid right now? They are getting suboptimal care because there isn’t enough to go around.

[This message edited by million pieces at 3:40 PM, Sunday, January 9th]

Me - 50 D-Day 2/5/10, separated 3 wks later Divorced 11/15/11!!!!

posts: 2035   ·   registered: Feb. 10th, 2010   ·   location: MD
id 8708687
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