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Mr. F, what is your main issue at this point that is hindering you from R? Is it anger, the injustice of it all, the fact that your WW lied to you so convincingly and for so long despite your entreaties, the gas lighting, her poor boundaries with other men to include the prior undisclosed incident? All of the above?

Most of the above, but her continous lying and TT after the first DD. How easily she could look me in the eyes and lie through her teeth without blinking. It was so easy for her, and I swallowed it all hook, line and sinker. And to be honest there is still part of me that feels like I am, in a way, condoning or endorsing, her A if I take her back. I know I should not let my pride (or whatever you want to call it) command me or my actions, but still. I also made it clear that if she continues with her lies we are done. She did anyways.

I have actually thought about this a lot in past few weeks. I also spoke with her sister a few time about this, and maybe I was too eager or naive in my expectations about her being honest with me. Was there ever any chance she would come completely clean? Has any WW ever done that? Was I too hard on her, were my expectations too high?

What is keeping you from D, other than the fact that your FIL just passed? If you D, do you plan on going with your original thought of D snd starting over with her from scratch? Where is your mind at right now? It’s hard to understand where you are going with all of this. What’s the end game?

I am leaning more and more towards the divorce with no future R, or starting over. But I want to do it in a healthy manner, when we are both in a place when we can land on our feet. The reasons are said in the first paragraph

The thing is, on a daily basis, we get on pretty well. Since the weather is getting better we started going out a lot more, even just the two of us. I knew thing would be awkward, but ffs, sometimes it's like we have nothing to talk about. Like we lost the connection. We talk about kids, our work but then one of us says something and we both go silent. Horrible.

Mr F. You mentioned in the JFO thread that there were previous times in your marriage where you lost your connection. It seems like it then returned, rinse, wash, repeat. Add to the present that you’re still dealing with the aftermath of the A, the unique circumstances regarding covid, etc. and I don’t think it’s out of the ordinary that things can ebb and flow in conversation and connection.

My wife is an introvert by nature. I, on the other hand, am an extrovert. I can talk about anything to anyone for hours on end. It comes natural to me. This includes conversing with my wife. She always tells me she wishes she had the gift of gab. I’m going out on a limb here, and I apologize in advance if I’m wrong, but you don’t strike me as the type who can just easily shoot the breeze for hours on end. You strike me as very buttoned up both personally and professionally and analytical by nature. Am I way off on this?

I wouldn’t read too much into the conversation part of it. Conversation will come when real intimacy returns. You guys need to start to flirt, and touch, and paw at each other a bit. I hate to say it but you can initiate this. Desire needs to be created. Intimacy will return with the creation of desire. Have you ever in the past playfully slapped your WW on the butt when she walks by you in the kitchen? That kind of playfulness is what I’m talking about. Create desire, intimacy returns, and the conversation flows.

Easier said than done of course in your current state of mind, but your current state of mind will not change without a change in behavior.

I guess Dude wants to play marriage counsellor. After 50 pages in JFO and 6 here it might be that you've more or less made up your mind, MrFlibble.

You had rejected the idea from your FIL about hanging around to take care of things because of his illness. He had respect for you. He did pass. That's a tragedy. You are putting your life on hold to get through the grieving. Class.

I don't know where this question about your current state of mind comes from. You've struggled with your decision. We all have. We all question if what we are doing is right or not and second guess. I did it for a long time.

The decision you make is up to you. It's your life. I think you had pretty well determined what it was going to be. It's pretty normal to second guess. Strength of mind and clarity thought to you, sir.

Condolences to you and your wife regarding the passing of her father. Sound like you both are getting comfortable with the possibility of D.

One day at a time

Dude67 You might be right about that cycle. I hope you are, honestly. But i can't help feeling this is different. My W can feel it too and commented on it a few times. There are many things going on right now so it might be just that.

You are right about me being analytical (that's what I do for living) so when it comes to my W and what she did I often come empty handed since most of it makes no sence, is completely illogical and so, so utterly stupid. But I am absolutely not buttoned up in any shape, way or form. The opposite actually. Pretty extrovert, outspoken and actually likeable guy. I make friends easily, not anything deep but I know people if you know what I mean.

I’m not “trying to play marriage counselor.” Far from it. Some people want you to divorce and be done with it. However, many have pointed out, including yourself, that compared to the majority of what you’ve read on SI, your WW’s A was to the left of lessor.

You’re analytical, so that’s what this needs to look like. Left side of the paper reasons to divorce. Right side reasons to R.

Left side Divorce: Had the A in the first place, then lied to you continuously to your face. I don’t know who this woman is, who so easily lied to me. Answer: all WW do. Every single one of them. Poor understanding of boundaries. Immature as the IC noted. You can roll the dice and hopefully find another woman who won’t cheat on you. You can roll the dice and hopefully find another woman who you will love as much as your WW.

Right side R: the A was on the minor side of things, no sex just kissing and touching. Completely remorseful. Young children in play. Joint custody not fun or best for the kids, especially so young. Financial implications important. Some other guy will eventually come onto the picture and live with your WW and kids. Not an exit affair. Both deeply love each other. Very good candidate for R. There is love but can trust and respect, the other parts of the relationship still be re established? I think yes. Will WW cheat again - probably not.

You know all of this. Another poster once said that there are a certain group of type A, driven men, winning in life men, athletes in college, business leaders, etc. who can never R despite having the ideal WW for R. Space ghost, WWTL etc. These men can’t get over the injustice, indignation, snd hit to their ego. It’s completely understandable. You must be true your nature snd personality in making this decision.

In my opinion it boils down to two things: 1. The left and right paper analysis. 2. Are you that type A person where R can never be a part of your nature - you will never be able to move past this.

Decide on these two things snd you will have your path. One last point is that it’s time to go to marriage counseling. You must give that a try at this point. It’s time.

How long before you move forward?

Honestly? No idea. I know everyone is different, every situation is different and there is no universal timeline, is there? It is what it is. I know you probably feel like all your advice go in one ear out the other but I take them to my heart. I do.

I spent many sleeples nights rolling around in my bed playing out all kinds of scenarios - 1, 5 or 10 years out. What if we divorce? What if we make it and R? What if we stay in limbo indefinitely? How will it affect me, her, our girls? The fact that I probably don't write it all out here doesn't mean it's not going in circles in my head, all the time. Because it does. I resent this situation. I feel like every time I make what I think is final decision something gives me a slap and when I stand up again I get another one from different direction.

Not an excuse, just how I feel.

Take today for example.

We briefly spoke this evening about her dad and I just let her cry for a while because she needed it. She cried and cried while I was holding her, telling her everything will be alright. She was again asking me to not leave her, that she knows how unfair this is to me, but she can't bear the thought of losing me. Not now, not ever. It's truly astounding what she is able to come up with to "make it up" to me. What she will do to became a better partner, better wife, bettter everything. I only wish she thought about this before she decided to solve her issues with reaching to some POS instead of her husband.

It's moments like these when my resolution takes a direct hit and I falter a bit. Who wouldn't? I have an IC session next week so I will probably unload it all there, neutral ground and all. Sorry if I am bring pathetic again. I wish I was as strong and resolute as some others posters here

Sorry if I am jumping all over the place. Again.

Dude67Thank you so much for your post. I will reply later, it's already almost 3 am and I really should get some sleep. I have an important meeting tomorrow (actually today)

I guess pack it in lads, Dude knows exactly what to do and thats reconcile at all costs. Mr Flib if youve read anything here one of the biggest things they say is do not attend marriage counseling out the gate, as their job is to save the marriage not the person. I dont know how Dude knows its time for you to go to marriage counseling and that you MUST do it, especially since youve been pretty straight forward about your plan to divorce since the beginning. So i will offer my opinion. Do NOT do marriage counseling, it will not do either of you any good. Your wife doesnt need it added to her plate at the moment, and it will only magnify and excerbate her stress and fear of losing you if you do this while 90% sure of divorce. You do not need this, while youre dealing with your own issues and the guilt of considering leaving her while shes grieving over her father. A marriage counselor whose patient is the marriage will eat you alive trying to shift the blame on you even partially so they can say "see you both made mistakes now kiss and make up." I believe this is literally the worst time for.marriage counseling. Your wife needs individual therapy for both her issues and more importantly to help her cope with her loss. You need it to keep a clear head through all this noise and to make a decision with clarity.

To balance out Dudes incredibly biased list i will say im one of the ones who divorced immediatly. Best decision of me life. I dont have children mind but the idea of living with that, when we had a great marriage and me wife wanted for nowt seemed miserable. I now have me lines drawn in concrete and am taking care of me and loved ones first. Divorce is not the end all be all.

You're the one living it. Any advice we give is shaded by our own experiences and how we interpret what you've said. All Waywards lie and minimize at first. Some come clean sooner than others, but I'd say most do so on your waywards time table. It takes time for them to unwind the reframing they did to allow themselves rationalizations to stray. Your wayward appears to be better than most to me. I know that's not much solace in that, but there could be something to work with. She's proven she was and can be an unsafe partner. Right now, I suspect she's a rather safe one just out of fear of doing anything to lose you. Whether she can be safe over the long term is still a question.

You appear to have a strong sense of right and wrong. While that makes you a safer partner than most, that makes you a less likely BS candidate for R then some. Your Wayward was selfish and did great wrong to you, your family, and herself. This left you having to decide between a number of awful choices. None of which is going to make you happy in the near term. Some BH went straight to D and are happy that they did. Some BH have reconciled with worse and are happy that they took the chance. Others tried but didn't have waywards capable of R and wish they had left at DDay. Others tried and although their wayward did their best, they just couldn't move past what was done. Some just rode it out being functionally just Room mates. Can't say I've heard any that did that happily.

No sane person will fault you for moving to D and moving on as co-parent with your WW. Quite frankly it's the path most likely to get you to peace and happiness the fastest. R is not for the faint of heart regardless of whether they are the BS or WS. I think your wayward can be a candidate for R, I'm not sure you are though. From what you've written, you struggle with her not paying for the crime with consequences. There's no way for the wayward to balance their wrong, so in the end the BS has to eat that shit sandwich in order for R to work. If I'm right and you are set on D, it's better to get it over sooner rather than later. It's better to get everyone started on getting used to the new normal.

The distance and awkwardness is to be expected. You are doing a modified NC. That helps wall yourself off and stops maintaining the bonds between you. That is it's purpose.

MrFlibble has to make the decision for himself. If he wants help from a C, it's probably IC that he needs.

MC may help a couple communicate better with each other, but MrF needs to communicate with himself. MC doesn't touch that.

An MC might get a good idea of what the partners should do, but good MCs help the couple get where the couple wants to go, not where the MC thinks the couple should go.

I often recommend MC when no one else does. I don;t see it as a good idea now.

MrFlibble can make up his on mind. Again, if he wants help, I'd recommend for a good IC and against MC.

I, too, think that all other things being equal, R is the best choice, but all other things are rarely equal.

The key ingredient to a successful recovery is knowing what the BS wants. Once the BS embraces what they want, the BS can start to arrange their life to maximize ...um... the return on investment.

[This message edited by sisoon at 10:02 AM, May 27th (Thursday)]

Dude67 again, thank you for your post.

You would not believe how many pages I have already filled with analysis and possible outcomes. The thing is, it comes in handy when dealing with IT systems. When it comes to relationships - not so much. Too many inconsistencies.

The problem with my W's A is that it never crossed the ultimate line. You know which one.

She apparently became very good at dancing on the edge, dipping her toes here and there, but never really going all in. She just did enough to get out of it what she wanted (attention and ego strokes) without giving too much so to speak. Her A was never sexual in nature, or at least that's what I think. She was never in it for sex. Her throwing him crumbs was simply her way of keeping him around so her constant stream of ego strokes would not die out.

THAT is the reason why I am struggling so much. There was no instant dealbreaker, just thousand small cuts that leave you bleeding, but not enough to kill you. If this were an affair in an conventional way (eg. She fell in love with him, sex, basically a relationship) I would be out of the door right away. This is where I have troubles with her reasoning - didn't she cross the line because she didn't want to or she simply did some kind of cost/efficiency analysis and decided it's not worth it? She obviously tells me it's the former, but you know.. trust issues. Wonder why.

But remove the minimal physical infidelity could you still go forward?

Throughout your threads It’s always the things she did to facilitate the affairs rather than the affairs themselves that came across like they hurt the most. Yeah she’s toed the line twice with two guys and never crossed it but the things she did to facilitate them crossed other lines (in my opinion) the way she treated you during the affair is the meat and bones of it all, again... in my opinion.

The deceit, the burner phones, picking fights to justify contacting him... doing things to your detriment to get her hit of these other guys attention. Then the trickle truthing to protect herself to the point you had to get a polygraph done. To this day she can’t fully tell you why it happened.

Has she apologised for any of the things she did to facilitate all this? I know she’s doing things to stop any future affairs like icing out her coworkers but what is she doing to address the way she went about her most recent affair?

Just to be clear, there are several lines when it comes to infidelity and your WW crossed many of them. Just because she didn’t cross ALL of them doesn’t mean that trust isn’t broken. Trust has been crushed and will take years to be rebuilt.

Question is, after breaking her vows in such a real way, is she someone who deserves to be your wife? Divorce or not, after what she has done, is she still worthy of being called your wife by you? Only you can answer, and it may take time for you to figure it out.

It’s ok to ask her for a real written plan to earn that spot back. Perhaps that plan includes legally ending the marriage for now. Perhaps it doesn’t. But it takes more than words. It takes real action on her part. D or not, if she wants the chance at a real and loving relationship with you, married or not, in the future, she needs to do the work.

Years of IC w infidelity specialist. Putting up boundaries to protect you and make you feel safe. Putting you and your healing needs first.

Those things have to happen regardless if you are still going down the path of D or not. Her actions put her in this position of having to prove herself, either to you or if you decide you can’t ever give her that chance, for her next partner down the line.

Give her no guarantees. But if she wants the chance, the work starts and needs to be completed regardless of the outcome. She was broken. She needs to work to fix herself.

Again, if he wants help, I'd recommend for a good IC and against MC.

Agreed, and I often recommending trying to find a particular specialist in your area who practices in the area of betrayal trauma (and these are often good IC choices for a WS as well).

A betrayal trauma specialist knows precisely what you are going through (they also typically deploy CBT therapy as part of their work) and they deal head on with infidelity situations, no sugarcoating, no blameshifting, no rugsweeping.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:07 AM, May 29th (Saturday)]

No sane person will fault you for moving to D and moving on as co-parent with your WW. Quite frankly it's the path most likely to get you to peace and happiness the fastest.

You know what, grubs? I started to telling myself the same thing. But we have two small kids and I would trade their long term happiness for my short term peace or feeling of justice being done. Not that I am deeply unhappy, but I am not exactly happy either.

But remove the minimal physical infidelity could you still go forward?

Throughout your threads It’s always the things she did to facilitate the affairs rather than the affairs themselves that came across like they hurt the most. Yeah she’s toed the line twice with two guys and never crossed it but the things she did to facilitate them crossed other lines (in my opinion) the way she treated you during the affair is the meat and bones of it all, again... in my opinion.

The deceit, the burner phones, picking fights to justify contacting him... doing things to your detriment to get her hit of these other guys attention. Then the trickle truthing to protect herself to the point you had to get a polygraph done. To this day she can’t fully tell you why it happened.

I definitely woudn't call the physical part minimal. But yes, the physical part doesn't hurt as much as her lies.

Has she apologised for any of the things she did to facilitate all this? I know she’s doing things to stop any future affairs like icing out her coworkers but what is she doing to address the way she went about her most recent affair?

Yes, she does apologize almost constantly. I know she's genuinly sorry but the damage is already done. That broken vase anology feels a bit cheesy but you know, there definitely is something in it. She's been in IC for a few months, I can see some progress, but there are thing I believe are not fixable, only manageable and it's possible it's only a matter of time when they will resurface. I am not saying she would cheat again (I actually believe she wouldn't), but it's still there, in the back of my minde somewhere. That unconditional trust is gone.

Stevesn I still call her my wife, so there goes an answer to your question. But for me, there is a meaning behind that word and she failed on many points. So yes, she could very well be my wife again.

It’s ok to ask her for a real written plan to earn that spot back. Perhaps that plan includes legally ending the marriage for now. Perhaps it doesn’t. But it takes more than words. It takes real action on her part. D or not, if she wants the chance at a real and loving relationship with you, married or not, in the future, she needs to do the work.

Years of IC w infidelity specialist. Putting up boundaries to protect you and make you feel safe. Putting you and your healing needs first.

She has given me multiple written timelines/plans for future. For me they are meaningless, even thought it's written they are just words and her words don't mean much to me these days. But yeah, her actions are one of who you might call remorseful WW. I know it's hard for her too, many of it goes against her default, basic settings of being selfish and often thinking only about herself. But she tries, really hard.

As for an update

We went to a BBQ on Sunday to a friend's house. He invited us both, merely out of politeness I believe, and I asked her if she was sure she wants to go because I anticipated that it might get awkward since many of my friends made it clear they harbor lots of anger towards her but she was adamant she wants to go, to face the music so to speak. So we went there, without kids, just to get out of the house because when we are alone in the house it tends to get a little hard pretending the elephant is not in the room.

But it was actually pretty nice, uneventful. I had a few beers and ribs. That text girl was there too, which was a bit awkward

We came home at 10 pm and ended up in bed. Not that I would call it a mistake or that I regret it, but I shouldn't have let it happen. It's confusing as hell. But it's still my wife and we both wanted to. If this was our shot at HB I think we did good. We didn't comment on it this morning but I feel like this conversation is coming this evening.

So things are still a mess at Flibble's.

Mr F. I’m curious. What goes your WW’s friends say to her, you, or the both of you together about the affair?

Also, what do your couple friends and shared social groups have to say about the affair?

Agreed, and I often recommending trying to find a particular specialist in your area who practices in the area of betrayal trauma (and these are often good IC choices for a WS as well).

A betrayal trauma specialist knows precisely what you are going through (they also typically deploy CBT therapy as part of their work) and they deal head on with infidelity situations, no sugarcoating, no blameshifting, no rugsweeping.

It's pretty hard to find even a decent counselor around here. I am actually surprised we both found someone. Having IC who deals specificaly with infidelity is something out of a dreamland. But we are both content with our counselors so I don't see it as an issue.

Mr F. I’m curious. What goes your WW’s friends say to her, you, or the both of you together about the affair?

She doesn't have that many friends, real friends I mean. She's very close with her sister and one other girlfriend, who lives in different country about 2h away. They call pretty often but it's not the same. Her sister got pretty well into her right after DDay and they even cut contact for a while. But they are trying to mend what can be salvaged. She called my W the stupidest bitch in the world if that's where you were going with your questions. Absolutely no enablers around. The only enabler was cut off pretty early and is getting divorced because she was also cheating on her husband. We no longer speak

Also, what do your couple friends and shared social groups have to say about the affair?

It differs. Some pretend they don't know (which is, in a way, pretty funny), some pretend my W doesn't exist unless she directly talks to them, and some make it very obvious they hate her guts. Two or three of my friends (the ones that try to set me up with anybody they can think of) made it very clear they have no intentions to ever speak to her again. But almost all of them reached out to offer their support in some way, both to me and in some cases (surprisingly) even to my W.

The problem is, her friends are my friends and vice versa. Our friends groups are one big mess, mostly married couples. But you know how that goes, we are friends but we hang out maybe once a month, or less. Some of them we havn't seen since last summer (pandemic and all). I have one good friend who has been great in all this and she has basically just her sister.

But yeah, she difinitely lost a lot of friends over this. It's obviously awkward to be around us now, the elefant in the room we don't talk about, the subtle questions of 'soooo.. what's new?" and so on. I guess you can imagine

Btw I have no idea what it will bring, but I think we can safely and with full certainty say that HB phase is here, whatever that means

I’ll admit, I’m not sure what direction you are headed with all this, honestly you probably don’t either.

But if you do choose a form of reconciliation down the road, be it before or after divorce, then I’d recommend later on you and your W should decide which friendships/relationships are important to you and actually have one on one or two on two conversations about them to clear the air. A heart to heart where your W takes the lead on apologizing for what she did, to you and your friends and family members and ask that they give her a chance to show you and them that she can change and be the partner you deserve.

It would be a good exercise for her in humility and an important step in healing. Sunshine needs to be shown both on her destructive choices and on what she is doing to rebuild. Just like you your friends need to be able to tell her how they feel about all that in order for her to regain their respect down the road. She needs to hear them.

Think about it. Hiding this all in darkness and talking behind backs does nobody any good.

Of course if you choose D with no reconciliation possibility then that is all unnecessary.