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Thanks for clarification on mad hatters. I actually hate that I know what that is, what WW, AP and NC mean.

The dinner went well, my mom kept it clean until she tried something along the lines of going on a vacation in Greece in August. Obvious fishing and asking if we are still together in August. But I managed to nip it in a bud without much drama.

Watching my W interact with my mom is, for a lack of words, interesting. They have always been close, I think my mom takes her as a daughter she never had, but it's obvious they struggle with how to behave around each other. I almost can't believe how many lives she disrupted and damaged with her stupidity

No idea about any "stubborn refusal" of any sort. I have simply realized that we wanted, or maybe expected, different things. I wanted a friend, she obviously wanted more. I understand how wrong it is, but I am very firm about my boundaries and she crossed them

I have never and will never cheat while in a commited relationship. That's not who I am. Loyal to a fault as they say.

I'm glad the dinner went well.

I have simply realized that we wanted, or maybe expected, different things. I wanted a friend, she obviously wanted more.

I never doubted you personally would cross a hard boundary, but this friendship was unwise on both your parts. Things were messy enough without starting a new friendship with someone with which there was attraction and potiential romantic match. Hopium is not a drug just reserved for BS & WS seeking R.
Waywards never realize how much the A changes every relationship they have. Not just their spouse and kids, but also friends, family, & co-workers. It's one of the reasons that WS/AP relationships has such a dismal track record. They end up hating each other for the changes that the A made to themselves and their lives.

[This message edited by grubs at 9:46 PM, Wednesday, May 5th]

No idea about any "stubborn refusal" of any sort. I have simply realized that we wanted, or maybe expected, different things. I wanted a friend, she obviously wanted more. I understand how wrong it is, but I am very firm about my boundaries and she crossed them

I have never and will never cheat while in a commited relationship. That's not who I am. Loyal to a fault as they say.

Very clear reaffirmation. At least, you can see how easily it can happen with vulnerability and need for understanding and friendship on one side, and on the other, hope for "more."

kk[/italic]

I'm happy for you. Best wishes.

Edit: sorry I was trying to correct what is going on with formatting.

[This message edited by humantrampoline at 3:54 PM, May 5th (Wednesday)]

Interesting "new" revelation. W texted me if she can come to my office to talk and I said yes, obviously. SO she came in, apparently had been crying, and told me after her weeks of IC sessions she still doesn't know why she did what she did besides her being selfish, immature and stupid. Is this really it? Is it possible there is nothing deeper here? I have no idea what my expectations are in this

She's afraid she will never be able to tell me "why", to give me an aswer with any real value. She told me one of her biggest fears is that is she can't take it apart, get into the smallest details of whys, that she can't fix herself and is ultimately doomed to repeat it. I was speechless.

I have no idea how to proceed now. She's honest, I will give her that, but damn.

She also asked for her Xanax for the first time since she took that polygraph. It's been sitting in my drawer since

Are our expectation of IC set too high? Or do we think there is more when there really isn't?

I would really love to hear back from some waywards who have dealt with their whys. I know everybody is different, but it might give us some base reading.

Watching my W interact with my mom is, for a lack of words, interesting. They have always been close, I think my mom takes her as a daughter she never had, but it's obvious they struggle with how to behave around each other. I almost can't believe how many lives she disrupted and damaged with her stupidity

Word for word my experience

I have no idea how to proceed now. She's honest, I will give her that, but damn.

I get this. About six months ago WGF admitted if I didn’t know about her A she would not tell me about it. So she honestly told me she would be dishonest.........That’s an inception level head fuck. What am I supposed to do with that information 🤦‍♂️

Might need to post in the wayward forum to get more ws eyeballs on it. Some waywards don't stray far from there often. Why is only important to the how of short-circuiting reoccurrences. Waywards have A's because they are selfish can always be considered the root cause. It's what gain they received by being selfish and why they ignored the consequences for not getting that gain in a more appropriate manner that matters. There's not always an easy answer. It might also be worthwhile to try another IC as the IC should have redirected it from those why's to the selfish gains and more appropriate coping mechs for satisfying them.

[This message edited by grubs at 5:28 PM, Thursday, May 6th]

Are our expectation of IC set too high? Or do we think there is more when there really isn't?

Or.... are you expectations from your WW too low? She needs to keep working at it until she finds out. There is also the chance that she knows the true whys, and is being deceptive about it b/c she knows that her potential true whys would be an absolute deal killer for you to keep trying R.

Waywards lie, and don't think for one second that they don't lie both to themselves and their IC. My WW's AP and my WW were both in couples counseling before I even found out she was having an affair. Think about that for a second. These people are liars, and the chances of them also lying to their IC is very real.

She told me one of her biggest fears is that is she can't take it apart, get into the smallest details of whys, that she can't fix herself and is ultimately doomed to repeat it. I was speechless.

If you're not going to R, I think you need to take this to the bank and GET OUT with your skin intact.

You've been horribly traumatized and the best your WW can come up with is, "I really don't know if I can keep myself from doing this again."

My WW told me early on she couldn't guarantee she wouldn't do this again (no, really - she really said that - now she insists she won't EVER do it again).

But when they say this, shouldn't we accept it? They're telling us what they really think: In spite of the hellish shit show they've unleashed, they've thought about it, considered it, and what they think is they just might do it again.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Sure, we can probably break apart all of the micro-motivations but sometimes it's about lust, entitlement, vanity and selfishness.

Trying to read the tea leaves and divine mysterious subtleties behind all of this really just may be an exercise in frustration if all you've got is a cypher who wants to get her rocks off. I'm sorry to say it that bluntly but think about it.

[This message edited by Thumos at 11:14 AM, May 6th (Thursday)]

About six months ago WGF admitted if I didn’t know about her A she would not tell me about it. So she honestly told me she would be dishonest.........That’s an inception level head fuck. What am I supposed to do with that information 🤦‍♂️

My WW also said this and she said it recently when I asked her again. She's being honest about this. Your WW is being honest about this.

Interesting "new" revelation. W texted me if she can come to my office to talk and I said yes, obviously. SO she came in, apparently had been crying, and told me after her weeks of IC sessions she still doesn't know why she did what she did besides her being selfish, immature and stupid. Is this really it? Is it possible there is nothing deeper here? I have no idea what my expectations are in this

More honest than most people get. Not a hugely satisfying answer, but it is an answer. The fix then, is how can she be less selfish, consider you in her decisions, and establish boundaries that benefit your relationship instead of herself first. If she can't shift herself out of a selfish mindset, you'll be stuck in an unstable relationship that she maintains so long as it benefits her.

She's not coming from a place of malice, not at all. It is obvious she's scared of herself, of what she is able to do to people around her. It wasn't meant like 'oop, I guess I might do it again, hehe' Not at all.

I can see how much this is crushing her, I think she genuinly wants to be a better partner and doesn't know how.

I'm sorry, I know you've had a lot of posts and maybe missed this detail (it's typical advice around here). Did you guys read through "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass, because the windows and walls stuff in there about setting boundaries and priorities is a great process to follow for the WS (or anyone really!) to avoid making selfish decisions and think about your partner when interacting with others.

MrFlibble,

You said

I can see how much this is crushing her, I think she genuinly wants to be a better partner and doesn't know how.

This actually is pretty encouraging. She has the desire to improve and just needs the tools. Has she discussed this with her IC? She needs to understand that this won't be solved in a handful of sessions. She's going to have to dig deep and she'll take 3 steps forward and 2 steps back for a while. You should encourage her without obligation to R.

I've watched your story closely from its inception. Regardless of the rollercoaster ride you have been on, I was always left with the impression that after all the dust had settled, the two of you could still move forward and become a stable, loving faithful married couple one day.

This last revelation is quite different and more damaging in my estimation. If she has doubts about her ability not to repeat past destructive behaviors, where does that leave you? You certainly don't want to be a police warden for the rest of your life, but that sounds like what you will be signing up to do. Is she flat out saying that she can't trust herself to maintain fidelity? You have a lot to chew on here. Does she have to wear a chastity belt from this point forward? Is that even a real thing?

This needs to be fleshed out to your satisfaction before R can be considered.

It wasn't meant like 'oop, I guess I might do it again, hehe' Not at all.

I get that. Nor was my wife. It's still gobsmacking isn't it? It feels very dangerous and it should.

I can see how much this is crushing her, I think she genuinly wants to be a better partner and doesn't know how.

Perhaps. Or you could be projecting onto her what you would like for her to feel, or what you feel as a betrayed spouse. Be careful with that.

Real remorse vs. naugahyde remorse is hard to come by. The WS's here on SI who get it are really great. But even they will concede they are probably the exceptional ones.

[This message edited by Thumos at 1:26 PM, May 6th (Thursday)]