SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I think a more relevant absolute statement is that 100 percent of marriages changed post infidelity.

Now, if 80 percent R’d, according to Shirley Glass, the next question is out of those 80 percent who are actually as happy or happier in their M post A then pre A?

To me, that’s the relevant question here, if you want to make the statement/ask the question that OP posted.

The thread that always comes to mind for me was from WWTL awhile back: "But I thought things were great."

I think when you use the term "pair bonding" then you are saying your WW fell in love with someone who she thinks is her "soul mate". Some men do that by the way as well. But I would say that you might be right, when they truly leave a BS emotionally and spiritually it is very difficult to see a change in them. It "might" happen, but it would totally have to come from them (meaning the WS) and they would have to do some real hard work on themselves and then prove it to the BS that they have changed.

I also know of many people on here where cheating is a total deal breaker and that is OK. In fact there are many times where I wish I would have just ended it back then for sure. But hindsight is 20/20 as they say, some BS's hold onto hope for their own reasons, some can quite clearly decide they are done. Either way it hurts horribly and takes time to heal for a BS. Sometimes for a long time.

Take care of yourself and follow whatever path works for you.

saditsover , I'm very sorry that you are in pain and your heart is breaking at every level possible.

The thing that strikes me about using Dr. Glass's very small amount of samples is this:

The couples she used in her sample were trying to save their marriage. Otherwise, why would they even be going to her for counseling to begin with?

Maybe Dr. Glass was a lot more effective in trying to save marriages than other counselors. Maybe other counselors had better results than she did. We will never know.

Also, we will never know how many couples tried to reconcile without marriage counseling and failed.

Anyway, being a statistics guy I have trouble using such small numbers. We know of the Law of Large Numbers... that the more samples used the more reliable the results. That is how actuaries are able to set insurance premiums with any sort of confidence.

Just my opinion.

[This message edited by lrpprl at 5:05 PM, Tuesday, February 28th]

For the folks asking the point of the post:

Bottom line is this, if your spouse pair bonded with another human being (mainly on the WW side) it's over.

Realize it, don't waste any more time. I sincerely wish you all the best but it will never work out.

It’s my understanding that the OP is trying to save BSs time and energy. I also gather from his post that people who think they are in R are only fooling themselves and it’s just a matter of time…….valuable, precious time.

Think of it as a public service message.

But then again, I could be wrong.

I agree. I think I can name one person on this site that seems actually, happily reconciled, and that's because the WS is now forever in the doghouse, marriage is changed considerably, and I wonder how happy the WS with this new arrangement (but really, who cares, WSs can eat a bag of d!cks.) Others on here who "reconciled" (myself included) are constantly questioning our decisions, our WS's actions/intentions/thoughts, trying NOT to be the marriage police, but usually failing, and more times than I can count, come back on this forum with another DDay or TT bomb.

I wish someone had hit me with the cold hard truth right off the bat. If you stay with a cheater, SOMEONE will be nibbling on that shit sandwich for the rest of their marriage.

This is an extremely delicate, difficult, and nuanced topic that's for sure. I feel like it could have been better worded as you saying you believe R is a myth, but I digress.

I'm going to respond based on a combination of my own feelings on the matter and stories I've read about life after infidelity.

I believe R is a way to survive, hence this site's name. Many couples R for reasons outside of love: Age, children, assets, fear, codependency, etc. Some also do it out of love, but I don't believe love is enough to save or repair a marriage/relationship damaged by infidelity.

I, too, have read many stories on here of a BS in R who wishes they had made a different choice 2, 5, 10, 15 YEARS down the line even with a completely remorseful WS who never cheats again. Who internally struggle so much when they shouldn't have to. It's true they may get to a point of contentedness, or maybe acceptance, tinged with melancholy. Where they may not deal with triggers every day, or even every week. But to what end? The scales are forever tipped. There is now a power dynamic within the relationship that will always be there, one where the BS can, rightfully so, walk out at any moment because they decided they really can't take it anymore. Where the BS is the morally "superior" partner, whether they think that of themselves or not. Where any and every compliment paid to their relationship or their WS will sting, not make them feel warm. What I'm saying is, the BS and the WS are no longer on equal ground, which I believe is imperative in a healthy relationship. No one should be above the other.

The BS will deal with triggers no one should have to deal with in a healthy relationship. Is it fair to be in a relationship where you will always remember a time where the person you loved and trusted the most hurt you so irreparably? This isn't a case of a partner maybe calling you a jerk, or spitefully not saying I love you during a fight, odds are you wouldn't remember those times. This is permanent.

That's not to say couples should be judged for going through R. Everyone is different. Everyone does what they think is best for them. But I know, for me, R just isn't viable. I tried it once. I was young, naive, and thought love and a remorseful WS should be able to fix everything. It doesn't. The pain of separating will be fierce and fast, but it will fade and eventually turn into detachment. R, in my own opinion, is like a slow death by a thousand cuts. Each time you're triggered, each time you are listening to a heartfelt love song, each time you fight, or hold each other, or go out on a romantic date, you will feel something missing, something just slightly off. Those are the small cuts. Some people can manage them better than others. I could not. I fiercely believe an A never strengthens a relationship, despite how an R'd couple may feel on the other side. I respect their perspective on their own relationship, certainly, but it's like saying cracking a house's foundation made it stronger because it was doubly reinforced afterwards to ensure the house doesn't collapse. That didn't make it stronger, that crack is always there, regardless of the measures taken to guard against it.

I need to feel completely in a relationship to be happy. I need to be able to throw my entire self, heart and soul, into it and feel those things be cradled and loved. I can't do that if I feel like I will always have one foot out the door.

[This message edited by WonderingGhost at 6:06 PM, Tuesday, February 28th]

Others on here who "reconciled" (myself included) are constantly questioning our decisions, our WS's actions/intentions/thoughts, trying NOT to be the marriage police, but usually failing, and more times than I can count, come back on this forum with another DDay or TT bomb.

Woaaaah!

I’m trying hard not to become defensive but such statements actually do deserve a response.

I do consider that we are happily reconciled (or reconciling as for me this is a life long process). My WH is not permanently in the doghouse and I do consider ourselves equal partners. Triggers do appear here and there but those would show up in any future relationship as I am not the same naive person I once was and actually I’m quite proud of that.

Our marriage is based on a lot of communication and not actual policing. I cannot guarantee you that I won’t have another dday but I can guarantee you that I will be fine if it does happen and it could happen in any relationship, I don’t have any intention to spend the rest of my life alone so I’ll have to take that risk either way. (With WH or another partner).

I can say our marriage has been rebuild from the ashes. Truly rebuild, not just committing to transparency (which I already had by the way prior to dday hence why for me it meant absolutely nothing in terms of effort) and promising he won’t do it again. We probably analysed, together and individually, every trait and every corner of our relationship once we stopped analysing the affair and why it happened. Coincidentally my WH thanked me today, without me even mentioning anything related, for holding him accountable and thanked me again that he is still in my life. No prompts, no requirements to do so. Our marriage is truly in a better place than it was pre affair even though we both did admit that we already had a good marriage.

It takes a huge amount of effort to reconcile and it can only be done if both partners are willing, truly willing to do so.

I am sad to hear when people white knuckle it. I respect your decision to do so as I am sure there are good reasons, but please don’t disrespect the amount of work BSes and WSes alike have put in to have a successful story by assuming that they have chosen the same path.

I do think there is a predisposition element to R.

I also agree on the impossibility of getting great data. One thing to consider is that the information you gather from MCs is likely very skewed no matter how large the sample size due to selection bias (this simply from a infidelity is the death of the relationship perspective). First, many people know immediately that infidelity is a deal breaker and divorce (or separate from gf or bf) and therefore never even sniff counseling. Only those that even see a MC are the data pool. Yes, I suppose there are probably some R stories that never saw a counselor.

In any case, when do you measure it? Perhaps four years in the BS might see progress and answer yes. Two years later after the dust settles BS feels differently but is resigned to it for a variety of reasons...codependency, sunk cost facacy, kids, financial/ lifestyle reasons, etc..

For some they can't unknown what they know and anything short of a lobotomy will not remove the images.

WonderingGhost

Great post.

I said others, not all.

I cannot guarantee you that I won’t have another dday but I can guarantee you that I will be fine if it does happen

Really? If we had the capacity to be "fine" after DDay, I doubt very much this site and other like it would exist. I thought I would be "fine" after DDay because infidelity was absolutely a deal-breaker for me, I thought, until folks around me convinced me that "if I could forgive him, what a great example I would be setting for my kids." What a bunch of horseshit.

and it could happen in any relationship,

Statistically, it is now more likely to happen in this relationship because A) Cheater is a proven cheater B) Cheater has been forgiven once (or thrice) already.... what's one more?

I don’t have any intention to spend the rest of my life alone so I’ll have to take that risk either way.

I'd rather be alone (wouldn't actually be alone, I have my kids and awesome friends) than to ever put any of my eggs in anyone else's basket again. I'm just hoping against hope (stupid cancer) that I'll have a few years cheater-free at the end.

I wonder if it would be possible to have a kind of survey on SI. Like the ones on YouTube. How is the state of your marriage after infidelity:
Ambivalent WS
Ambivalent BS
Reconciling
Separated
Divorced
You can change your answer any time. Then we would have an indication.
I really would like to know.
Sadly my husband isn’t a candidate for reconciliation. He is madly in love and living together with his AP. No unicorn for me.

You are 3 months into the world of infidelity(if this is your first time). You are barely out of the shock phase.

You'll learn plenty as you go. One thing you'll learn is that many people have many different outcomes---happily reconciled, happily divorced.....and everything in between. There aren't too many absolutes in the world, and the predetermined outcome from infidelity isn't one of them.

Who knows? Your story may be way different from now in a years' time.

Really? If we had the capacity to be "fine" after DDay, I doubt very much this site and other like it would exist.

Yes really because part of the work I have done was recalibrating my attachment style ensuring that I am where I should be should I lose my husband. Because I could lose my husband in a variety of ways, not only by infidelity, hence I had to revisit my attachment style given that I was suicidal on dday. So yes, whilst I am sure I would be massively hurt, I would not be unable to function and believe that my life is over as I did on dday, I will be fine and use my new tools to navigate through my pain.

Statistics don’t scare me either, I’ve read that statistically I am as well now more at risk of becoming a cheater myself since I’ve been subjected to infidelity and yet I still trust myself and my integrity. In fact I believe I am safer with my WH knowing what we’ve been through rather than another man out there who probably has the same skewed beliefs my WH had before cheating.

I'd rather be alone (wouldn't actually be alone, I have my kids and awesome friends) than to ever put any of my eggs in anyone else's basket again. I'm just hoping against hope (stupid cancer) that I'll have a few years cheater-free at the end.

I’m sorry to hear about cancer, I am sending positive vibes as I write this and I hope you get to live a long long life.

For myself, although I’m sure I’d be happy alone, I don’t wish to let infidelity affect the rest of my life in that way, I wish to continue to love and feel loved taking the chance of having my heart broken; my view is that life is just a series of taking chances but without taking them, we don’t live to our full potential and we don’t experience growth.

I think true, REAL reconciliation is very rare.

I think that's a terrifying thought to WS,who want to believe they could fall in love with someone else,and have sex with them and in the end it will be ok,their marriage will be fine. And it's a terrifying thought to BS who so want to stay with their WS, get over all the pain, and believe their WS will never cheat again.

We see SO MANY past members come back,with a new dday. Shocked, because their WS "did the work." Their WS did everything we tell them they need to require of the WS, they seemed terribly remorseful..yet here they are. Again. And they want us to tell them it's ok, maybe their WS is really,really sorry this time,and will learn their lesson. And we do! We basically tell them just that.

From reading this forum for many years, I think true R is like the ever elusive unicorn of a WS who immediately tells the entire truth when confronted on dday.

I think there are many who think they are in R, yet it's obvious they're not. Their ws isn't doing the work, they're just love bombing.

I think a marriage is never the same after an affair. The trust is never 100%. There's always a scar.

And,before those members come rushing in to correct me, mind you I said it's not impossible, and I said "I think." It's my opinion based on MY observations.

I also think OP should be allowed his opinion, without feeling shamed for it. His experience is valid. Just as those who believe they're in R. Your experience is valid. But it is no more valid than his.

[This message edited by HellFire at 7:20 PM, Tuesday, February 28th]

Years of a relationship built with someone outside the marriage causes incalculable damage.

I'm also in agreement with this as someone who experienced multiple D-Days and these were mostly LTA's. It's why I finally decided to D. I didn't want to waste anymore of my life with the incessant memories and ruminating over what had happened. My xWS was a poor candidate for R who I also believe is personality disordered. I was extremely mentally abused and physically abused 2 times during the aftermath of discovery. There is just no coming back from that.

While I believe R is possible as many have proven on this site I would wager MOST marriages are not after an A. It takes 2 very special people to want to work on the M after something so heinous. It takes both to want to make the M work and to look past the A and transgressions. I also think in these cases they are able to forgive as well though I'm not sure.

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 7:29 PM, Tuesday, February 28th]

No one has shamed the OP, people are relating their experiences, with a lot of people agreeing and SOME people offering that R is in fact, not a myth.

But it is no more valid than his.

Actually, my life is not a statistic or an opinion. So, my take on my life is more far more valid than someone suggesting R doesn't exist.

R doesn't exist for OP.

Or a lot of people.

I note all the time here that I never care how people find peace, be it D or R or if they find something of value in limbo.

We can only ever relate our own experience.

My result isn't a sales pitch in hopes that everyone chooses my path. No one in all the years I've been here who I know in R, be it going well or ill, ever suggests R is the only way.

But the instant someone insists they're happy, we're a myth, or a unicorn or not possible.

And yet, here I am.

As is the co-founder of this very website, and dozens of friends and former members who helped me along the way.

When I see these threads, I never hear anyone sweat the happiness level of D. I know quite a few unhappy D people, most of them among my family and friends. I also know a big pile of happy D people. My aforementioned MC is happily a single dad for 20-years, happiest guy I know. I love the the new starts section of SI, where people find happy on the other side.

There are many ways to get to the other side of infidelity.

R is one of those ways.

I'm not sorry that I'm happy.

My M is changed forever, I am changed forever, my wife is too, and MOST of it is better sans the bullshit games and blind trust we leaned on before. I can hate the A forever, like most of us, and still appreciate who my wife is now.

OP's view is based on his experience, and it sounds horrible, and I hope healing starts.

I'm also certainly allowed to offer my experience and my existence as a counterpoint to R being a myth.

I have to say I find it a bit rich to post this damning verdict on reconciliation on this site.
Not that there is some truth in it – not every relationship can or even should be reconciled. But if reconciliation is the relationship-unicorn then this site is the stable for unicorns.
When you find this site the first page is a welcome-page that tells you that the Moderators are well into recovery, whether divorced or reconciling so right away you know there are unicorns ahead.
This site was founded by a couple that reconciled after infidelity. When you are welcomed in on this site the first page you get is a dedication from the bereaved husband to his wife, the late Deeply Scarred. There we have two unicorns, albeit one who is now in greener fields.
Then we have plenty of members here that are either the betrayed or the wayward spouse that somehow have managed to transform into unicorns. Here – on this site – they aren’t so rare at all.

Not everyone is destined to become a unicorn. For some it’s not offered, for some there is no interest. But creating unicorns isn’t the goal of this site. Its goal is probably exactly what it’s title suggests: Help people survive infidelity.

For enough. We will have to agree to disagree that he's been shamed for his POV.

I also think those who have reconciled need to remember not everyone has a WS who did everything their WS apparently did. Many are just trying to make the best out of the shit sandwich we all were fed.

I stand by what I said. As I very clearly stated..it's what I think. Ymmv

Well, hopefully no one is shaming the OP for expressing his opinion. He is certainly entitled to express his views on this matter. This issue arises from time to time. I echo Oldwounds sentiments. I am sorry the OP is hurting after false R with his WW and her further lies and deceit. False R is the worst soul destruction on so many levels. I hope he continues to post as he moves forward with D to get out of infidelity. Personally, I don’t think any generalizations on whether to R or D after infidelity make much sense. This is a supremely individual decision with so many personal circumstances to be taken into account, including whether infidelity is simply a dealbreaker for the individual. R and D are both paths out of infidelity. The last thing I cared about when dealing with infidelity in my M, was whether some one else decided to R or D in similar circumstances. We are all different. Although initially I was headed for separation and D, I subsequently agreed to give recovery a chance. For me R is not a myth. It was the best decision I have made and we are very happy, and have been for decades. The important thing is to follow the path that is right for you, whatever that may be. And to the OP, this site exists to help you in your journey.