SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Fairly clear by now that if Ozzy tells the OBS that decision is going to be internally driven. He's heard every version of "Tell the OBS" by the choir and he ain't going for it. It does seem like bullying to keep harping on it.

Ozzy you said you were in MC and your wife is in IC. Are you in IC, and is your IC trauma-informed?

Wishing you peace!

The answer is I NEVER EVER wanted this. But I did say "Yes". My wife grabbed hold of that and went for it. So what the MC drew out from us is that just because someone reluctantly agrees to something but clearly doesn't want it, doesn't mean you have to do it. If you love them and care for them you wouldn't. I guess that is why I was defending my wife, she had "agreement" which in my view (still) doesn't make what she did quite as bad as going behind my back. She still fucked another man knowing that I would rather she didn't though....

I never thought you had really signed onto open M. I thought your positive reactions came from deciding to make the best of a lousy sitch.

YI really wish your MC had said something like, 'A good partner doesn't use consent obtained under duress as an OK to do something that they know is wrong,' rather than use just 'love' as the reason. From what you've posted, it seems pretty obvious that your W knew you were reluctant to give permission, and she had to have known down deep that she forced it out of you. She had to have known it wasn't true consent.

ou were mistaken in agreeing to your W's A. You're partially responsible. More important, you say your W told you she'd see the guy even without your 'permission'. You may bear some responsibility, but not much, IMO.

I understand questioning whether you'd want to know of your W's cheating from OBS. What seems paramount, though, is that secrets like adultery can't work well in long term Ms (or quasi-Ms), IMO. For something to stay secret, the secret-bearer has to put up an impregnable wall about part of their life - and no wall is impregnable. Many SIers are here because they learned of an A (or new info about an old A) years after the event itself. The pain is excruciating for them.

So in opting for ignorance, you're opting for a relationship that is fraught with risk. IMO, it's much better to get honest fast and deal with the fallout as soon as you can.

You were mistaken in agreeing to your W's A. That was your decision, and that's what got you into your sea of pain. What have you changed in yourself to prevent making a similar mistake in the future?

IOW, it looks a lot like you are still letting fear of losing your W or your M or something drive your decisions, and you seem to be OK with that. That's the biggest problem I see in your sitch.

This post is not about telling OBS - it's about your reasons for not telling.

A good IC can help, if you want help.

Well, I think the intensity of the responses imploring Ozzie to tell the OBS is that if Ozzie does not take action in this regard, there is **someone else** being denied their agency--namely the OBS. THERE IS SOMEONE INNOCENT WHOM OZZIE IS HURTING BY HIS (IN)ACTIONS. And so we are really empathetic towards the OBS.

If someone's actions lead to their own pain that is one thing, but if someone's actions lead to the pain of SOMEONE ELSE, then that is a far worse thing, at least that is how many of us here see it.

Overall yes Ozzie is still being bullied by his WW and it is painful for many of us to see too, I do hope that from all this Ozzie learns to stick up for himself, instead of relying on others--such as his MC--to do so for him.

Ozzy said

Spoiler: I didn't tell (O)BS. If this triggers perhaps stop reading now. I'm feeling at a proper crossroads and that attack line really won't help much right now.

How about we offer Ozzy the support he is asking for and get this thread back on topic.

As I’ve said before, I believe the OBS should be told. But, I believe that Ozzie and his wife need to see that as a necessary decision first. In order for that to happen there has got to be growth in the both of them. And that is this groups primary responsibility in my judgement. Let’s give Ozzie the best advice we can to help reach that growth. Let Ozzie start asking this community for answers for the questions he needs answers for. Let’s get back to helping him with what he needs. In the end, if we do that right, I think everything will work out. So to reset, let me ask Ozzie what do you need from this group?

Ozzy,

Appreciate the clarification. My final thought about the information you have about the AP’s state of marriage, It is very common for cheating partners to rewrite histories of their normal happy marriages.
A) it helps them feel less guilty when they step out of the marriage
B) Also helps convince the person who they want to cheat with. Sleeping with a " I am happily married and I love my wife " guy vs " my life is miserable, my wife is a jealous cheating c***t".

As for the OBS being jealous and insecure about the "friendship" with your wife, hell yeah mister ! . I would not want a woman like your wife 1 mile away from my husband, forget being friends. And I am a secure woman who has never questioned my WH’s friendships. ( it’s ironic I am a BS I know I know ). I believe in true man-woman friendships, most of my friends are equally secure men. I know my boundaries.

I am also not sure about what you mean about AP taking over another family, OBS’s kids. I hope the implification is not that she is less of woman since she comes with baggage. Wouldn’t your wife be the same if AP and her married each other? Have you perhaps thought if OBS cheated on her ex husband with AP? And this brings to mind the pot calling the kettle black idiom.

Perhaps your wife has also rewritten your marital history to get AP to be with her. About you being on board to scratch an itch and to get the spice back in the marriage. Maybe AP thinks he is doing you a favor, injecting energy back into your marriage. Win win for everyone and no moral dilemma.

And you are also using all of the above to ease the guilt of not telling OBS( I hope you do have some). OBS not being a virtuous woman is better for the overall narrative. The reality is no one deserves to be betrayed.

I am going to leave you to deal with your shit while I deal with mine. At this point I can only hope that commonsense and basic compassion for another human being takes over and you wake up from the fog you are in. You seem like a reasonable guy barring a few ( or many?) things I don’t agree on and I would totally get a drink with you in another planet. As equals, boundaries intact and purely as friends.

I am glad Hellfire pointed out those posts, because I also recalled things along those lines when reading Ozzie’s recent post.

When Ozzie first came on this site he kept posting about how honest his wife was, and was mostly being told that she wasn’t, or even if she was, she was still not acting kindly. He now sees that he was deluding himself to try to save his family.

He is asking us to cool it a bit so he can still participate. Finding the balance can be hard, because some degree of ‘holding the feet to the fire’, is the very thing which made this site useful to Ozzie early on. It’s about honesty, to others and himself, in the end.

On the telling OBS point, I think we need to leave Ozzie to ruminate on that in his own time. I think Sissoon’s comment about that gives him a useful entry point.

[This message edited by straightup at 9:42 PM, Monday, September 4th]

@Hellfire: I have no issue with donating money to charity but I don't want you to feel like you have made some triumphant point here. I remember you were one of the ones leading the chorus early on as to whether I should even be posting here. The first example you gave, part of my post says about it being the worst mistake of my life. Even where I used the word excited in the example you have given, the next sentence says I would rather it wasn't happening... I certainly never used the word ENTHUSIASTIC, and reading back on some of those I am surprised you could see someone enthusiastic about it all. It is interesting to me you saw it that way. I know you think I have my fingers in my ears about OBS. I feel like you have had your fingers in your ears about the experience I have been through. Thanks for the comment on toning down the language though.

@sissoon: Thanks very much for your post.

What have you changed in yourself to prevent making a similar mistake in the future?

I feel like I have a much better understanding that a marriage can't just be taken for granted (from both sides). I certainly won't be a pushover in future, and will straight up say what I think.

IOW, it looks a lot like you are still letting fear of losing your W or your M or something drive your decisions, and you seem to be OK with that. That's the biggest problem I see in your sitch.

I am interested to hear what fear you currently think I am possessing... as I said with the house deposit we were a whisker away from the M being done and I had made my peace with that, and didn't even fear it anymore (other than the disappointment that it had come to this point of course). So more detail here would be great.

@Trdd and @Inkhulk: thanks for the kind words. @Hardknocks I am not in IC at the moment, I don't feel the need for it right this moment. Depending on how the MC goes I am very much up for doing more though but I feel very strong in myself right now.

@WalkinOnEggshelz: I really thought my disclaimer might prevent this thread from turning into another skipfire but oh well. I will say as I did before, I can take the hits though. They really don't concern me. I just don't understand why people who are so triggered would continue to get themselves so upset by something every day. Just don't look in here. @straightup I hope this clarifies your point, I don't need anyone to

cool it a bit so he can still participate

It is actually in consideration of others.

As an aside, I would be interested to hear from anyone (especially waywards) who had been in my stage of R, and THEN told OBS. What did your WS think of this plan? It is very clear what all the BS on here think, and I understand all of that. But from a practicality point of view, have there been WS on here who were happy to reopen that can of worms that they had inflicted on their family??

@Dennylast: I guess I am just looking for clarification on things and relatable experiences from others, such as the questions I have put above. I think I am doing pretty bloody well considering the last 8 or so months. I know no-one here knows me, but things like "fear of my W" are interesting to read so I would like to know why I am giving that impression.

(To re-emphasise - not telling (O)BS is a decision I am actively making, this may change, but it is not something being beaten into me. People can disrespect that and that is fine, but it is not due to being forced into the decision)

@Abalone123 a few bits to unpack / ask from your very helpful post:

I am also not sure about what you mean about AP taking over another family, OBS’s kids. I hope the implification is not that she is less of woman since she comes with baggage. Wouldn’t your wife be the same if AP and her married each other? Have you perhaps thought if OBS cheated on her ex husband with AP? And this brings to mind the pot calling the kettle black idiom.

No I absolutely didn't mean to come across that way. The emphasis was more on the fact that I know she has at least on one occasion been a WS herself. Of course she has hopefully worked on herself in that way but, rightly or wrongly, the fact that their relationship started as an affair sticks with me. I do have guilt, you are right. But overall as I said in my previous lengthy post, while I have done wrong in this situation, it pales in comparison to what my wife has done, and even moreso than what he has done in relation to his wife. If he has learned from the experience, then hopefully their relationship is healing. Hey, he may have told her. I don't know them so I would never know. But I just want to move on and I don't think opening that line of communication (if I even could???) would help things. As someone said, if I ever did tell and said it here, would anyone even believe me now??? That is part of the reason why it is best to just let it go, I don't think there is more to be said on it. If I do tell, it won't be because of being told on here. It would be for my reasons (having taken all of the great advice on here on board of course).

Perhaps your wife has also rewritten your marital history to get AP to be with her. About you being on board to scratch an itch and to get the spice back in the marriage. Maybe AP thinks he is doing you a favor, injecting energy back into your marriage. Win win for everyone and no moral dilemma.

He never knew about me knowing anything. So in his mind he was just happily fucking my wife, without me or his wife knowing about it. As I said this is how he ended up with his wife as well.

I would totally get a drink with you in another planet. As equals, boundaries intact and purely as friends.

Damn straight. I had a drink with a female colleague from work not so long ago and there were a number of times I was shaking my head internally at my wife and POSOM thinking "How could you even end up there?" Despite everything and the fact my marriage was supposedly "open" briefly I could never do that to my wife (or some poor OBS).

Thanks for the (mostly) positive thoughts. If anyone still wants to talk about (O)BS, I can't stop you, but for your own wellbeing, maybe just leave it alone for a bit. Thanks to all.

Oh meant to say: I have my individual session with the MC later this week. If anyone has any thoughts based on what you have read from me on what I should speak to her about, I am all ears. She is very good at leading the conversation but you wonderful people might have some ideas....

For the sake of argument, let's forget empathy and altruism and everything else, let's remove the OBS from the equation (other than, "she needs to be told"). I still think Ozzy needs to tell her for a very personal, even selfish reason - just to try and overcome his fear .

So far, he's been driven by fear of change, or rather acknowledging change. Ozzy keeps saying that he's afraid of destroying the family, but to me, as things stand (and I'm not wanting to be unnecessarily cruel here) there is no family anymore. Family is an emotional entity, where there is trust, self- and mutual respect, one isn't dogged by fear, shame, self-doubt and what have you. What we're dealing here with is at best a household, or a domestic legal unit. This is not a good place to be in.

Ozzy, even if your current situation gets resolved in the disintegration of your marriage and a divorce, you'll still have to heal from it. For yourself, for your kids, for other important people in your life. If you act decisively now, there will be less emotional shite to untangle further down the line and you'll be healing a tiny bit faster. If you're not willing to inform the OBS for her sake, do it for yours.

When someone here is told something they don't want to hear, it's dismissed as a trigger. Indicating it is an issue with the person pointing it out, rather than the thing being pointed out.

It's not a trigger. It's about doing the right thing.

I will refrain from saying more about that.

I'm curious as to why you believe their relationship started as an affair? IF that is true, all it shows is that his wife,and your wife,have the same shitty coping mechanisms. And it also shows that he's cheated before, has now cheated with your wife,and will cheat again. It also says a lot about the remorse you felt he had.

Yes. I learned something about the way I was coming off, by reading your original thread. I strongly encourage you to read through your past posts as well. Maybe it might help you as well.

[This message edited by HellFire at 4:32 PM, Tuesday, September 5th]

About fear....

You say you won't tell because of what your W's reaction may be. Look, if she'll walk because you talk abut what she's done, she's not a candidate for R. She did it. Her cheating's being revealed to someone else is clearly one of the possible outcomes. She has to be able to absorb that if she has any hope of R'ing.

You don't want to mess up OBS's M. Revealing her H's cheating will, perhaps, come as a shock, but it's her H who ruined her M, not you.

You're making your decisions based on what you think other people will do. You can't make others do anything, yet you see yourself as powerful enough to make your W leave and ruin OBS's M. What's underneath that?

My bet is fear.

I think you owe it to OBS to tell her, but I won't urge you to tell her. I do urge you to put fear aside, because you can't heal if you let fear drive your choices. Telling OBS and putting fear aside are very different enterprises. You can heal without telling her. Again, you can't heal without taking risks and facing your fears head on.

You can do difficult things even while scared.

Thanks for your update Ozzy. It's nice to see you getting stronger. Since you shared more information about AP and OBS, do you mind me asking, AP and your wife were once together, how does their relationship tie into AP and OBS's relationship timewise? Did you get your information about AP being an AP with OBS before getting together from your wife?

Seeing no other option, as she admitted she would see him behind my back if I said no, I bent my brain into a pretzel to think if she gets this out of her system with me knowing about it then we can recover better than it being in secret.

Yeah that's popular one, but it never works that way. It's interesting how people around the world think the same stupid things.

[This message edited by bob7777 at 8:36 PM, Tuesday, September 5th]

As an aside, I would be interested to hear from anyone (especially waywards) who had been in my stage of R, and THEN told OBS. What did your WS think of this plan? It is very clear what all the BS on here think, and I understand all of that. But from a practicality point of view, have there been WS on here who were happy to reopen that can of worms that they had inflicted on their family??

I’ve been thinking about this Ozzy. I’m not sure we have a large enough WS community at this time to give you good examples of this. In my personal situation, I was outed very publicly by my AP. His wife was there. It was quite an embarrassing scene for both my husband and OBS.

What I can add from a WS perspective, however, is the ability to realize, respect, and finally have empathy and meaning of agency.

There were people in my circle that knew about the affair. I had confided in them and used them to help me rewrite history. Telling them my side of the story in my twisted POV to dehumanize my husband in order to make myself feel better about my actions.

I had later lied about these people knowing not having any empathy or understanding of how it made my husband feel to have people know about my affair and possibly pitying him without his knowledge. People knowing very intimate aspects of his life, possibly having more information than he had regarding those details.

We would argue over it, me telling him I wouldn’t care if the situation was reversed. I couldn’t understand agency. It finally hit me after he tried giving me a million examples, somehow it sank in and I was gutted for not just hurting him but for being so obstinate in trying to deny it.

I feel there is clarity in honesty. I know you are concerned about reopening a wound, however I don’t think this is something that your wife should be involved in. She needs to maintain her NC at all costs. This communication would dokey be between you and his wife. It can be email, letter, text; it does not need to be in person and you do not need to do anything to follow up unless invited. It is simply to provide his wife some agency. Whatever happens after that is between the two of them. Whatever happens with you and your wife is yours alone.

I know a lot of people have mentioned the word agency several times on this matter. I never really understood the concept until I came here. I have certainly changed the way I think about it.

I’m not pushing you one way or another. What I do want you to give some thought about though is how you view agency. What does that mean to you?

Like me, it’s possible that you need to work on other things first to get there. That’s ok. I don’t necessarily think there is a one size fits all here, but in the end the results can be similar.

Looking into why it had been a nonstarter for you may lead to more questions and hopefully some insight both within yourself and also with your marriage. Instead of putting your foot down on an idea, explore why you are so much against it.

Ozzy,

I will admit that I probably take this personally as based on my own experiences, and you have made it clear that you don’t care to tell OBS.

I am however going to try one more time. First you say that you wouldn’t want to know. Well that’s great for you, but it is incredibly selfish of you to make that decision for someone else, and I frankly don’t believe you. You knew the entire time so I doubt you have the ability to have a clear perception of it from someone who doesn’t know. Every BS here all say they wish someone had told them, there is a reason for it.

Here’s the truth, OBS will probably find out sooner or later, as these things usually are exposed, probably when AP cheats again which I feel is highly likely if not already happening. Her marriage has been destroyed already she just doesn’t know it yet. It’s like if the sun disappeared right now, we would still have about 8 minutes of sunlight and gravity before all hell breaks loose. That’s what is going on now. By telling her, it’s like an early warning, a chance that she might survive the apocalypse. Even if the story is true that she cheated on her ex with AP, and i still feel she has the right to know.

Here, I’m going to say it. It’s absolutely disgusting to have sex with someone who is having sex with other people without the consent of both parties. There are so many risks involved, that alone should be enough to let her know.

If APs wife had told me what she knew, had given me her evidence, had allowed me to make my own decision about MY marriage, it would have changed everything. I will forever resent her that.

Ignore me, do whatever.

@This0is0Fine - I think I see where you are coming from. I still don't quite see the difference between R and trying R though. The MC is 2 sessions in, and is having a big impact. We have had tender moments and they are growing by the day.

Oh meant to say: I have my individual session with the MC later this week. If anyone has any thoughts based on what you have read from me on what I should speak to her about, I am all ears. She is very good at leading the conversation but you wonderful people might have some ideas....

Love and tenderness isn't enough. It's approximately the bare minimum for a relationship to exist. I've used the "soles of shoes" or "air in life" as an analogy for "love in a relationship". Any pair of shoes has to have a sole, if the sole is gone, there is no repairing or wearing the shoes. They just don't work. If you don't have air, you won't be alive for long. If a relationship doesn't have love, it's already totally over. Soles don't make shoes good, air doesn't make life good, love doesn't make a relationship good.

To be in R, you need to know exactly what your needs are to feel safe again and what your needs are in a healthy marriage. You wife has to recognize those needs and work toward meeting them. She needs to do what it takes to become a safe partner, first. One good question of the MC is how can you differentiate between the things that you need to feel safe and the things you just need to enjoy your M. They are different things.

Your wife should also feel free to write down her needs in the M so that you can work towards meeting those. But there is a huge gulf of difference in that you never made the relationship unsafe, so anything you are doing towards meeting her needs must have nothing to do with whether or not she is sufficiently happy to cheat again. This is not a totally equivalent and parallel track. She is the offender and has more work to do. She has to recognize that she is the one that created this imbalance, that she has more work to do, and that despite the extra work she has to put in on this side, overall you are still getting the shit end of the deal. This type of emotional and mental effort is very hard for most cheaters to do. They tend to be selfish and think it's unfair that they have to do more in R (the gall).

Just trying generic marriage counseling strategies unrelated to infidelity and hoping you magically rekindle a spark and love each other again is "trying" to R. The old marriage is dead and cannot be revived. The only path forward is a new marriage built on these explicit needs. We all want a time machine, but that's not an option.

I think, Ozzie, that a huge issue for you your entire life is standing up for yourself. At least that is what I have gotten from your threads. I mean, I happily see you settling for less than the bare minimum in your marriage.

What are you doing to grow in that regard? Relying on your MC to stand up to your WW for you, is not a strategy that will be a long-term solution.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 1:24 AM, Wednesday, September 6th]

Ozzy,

I am wondering if would clarify these things for me.

I actually, genuinely don't know. If I had a few weird months in my marriage but then things went pretty much back to normal, to then be told the real reasons for them and possibly end the marriage when things can carry on reasonably OK??? I don't know. This A is over. It really is. If it isn't at any point, then I will donate more money to charities of all of your choices and I will also tell (O)BS and I will also eat my hat. If I wasn't so confident of all of that then it would be a different story.

Are you saying that you would not care if your marriage was weird for a few months and then went back to normal that you would not want to know if it was an affair that caused it? Also -- do you think your marriage will ever get back to normal?

The A is done, they will live their life, and we will live ours. And again, some may not believe it but I 100% guarantee that if that POSOM contacts my wife at any time, then (O)BS will be told immediately. I have made that clear to my W and she gets it.

What is your thought process / feelings around telling the OBS in this particular scenario. Does OBS have more a right/need to know after POSOM contacts your WW and not now or is it more of a tool (make it seem like you are in control, keep them in line, ...) or some other reason?

I almost replied last night and didn't know how to word it. I will just say it.

No-one is holding a gun to my head. Not telling (O)BS is my choice. I totally get all of the reasons given. I agree with pretty much all of them. But this is a public forum and there are a few more elements which I am not going to put here which make me, personally, not want to tell. That may seem like a cop out but that is the way it is.

@Sceadugenga (and others):

What we're dealing here with is at best a household, or a domestic legal unit. This is not a good place to be in.

It has only been a few weeks of being on the upslope for us since hitting rock bottom, but as a family unit, we seem very strong to me. What evidence do you need for me to convey that that is the case? Before all this bullshit I would have said that we were one of the stronger families I knew. Our session with the MC was to ignore our troubles for a moment and just discuss our history since we met. We have had a hell of a good time. I think we can get back to that, and are on our way already. When our kids come down to say goodnight and we are cuddling on the sofa I don't think they would say that this is at best a household. Help me out here.

@Hellfire: We clash. That is the way of public forums. You seem to be one of the few that (other than glaring differences of opinion) doesn't seem to think I am a fairly decent sort of a guy, so I don't let it get to me. I know your heart is in the right place so I bear no grudge at all, and you deserve the respect you have on here. I thought I had done a half decent job of showing empathy in the face of criticism, but we can all always do better, so advice taken on board.

I'm curious as to why you believe their relationship started as an affair? IF that is true, all it shows is that his wife,and your wife,have the same shitty coping mechanisms. And it also shows that he's cheated before, has now cheated with your wife,and will cheat again. It also says a lot about the remorse you felt he had.

This is stuff that my wife learned about him while "friends" with him. In her limerance she didn't see that these are not traits of a decent guy, and as she started to come out of the fog told me stuff about him, I guess to help her see it all for what it was. She knows he has already destroyed one family and came close to destroying ours. I don't believe a fucking word he says about remorse etc. There is more there that as I said I won't be listing on a public forum.

@sissoon:

Thanks again for your thoughts. This post is to try and drive the whole conversation onto something else as you can see. This isn't about fear. This is a conscious decision, and as I said there are reasons why I, and I alone without any coercion, feel it is in the best interest not to tell. This very, very much includes thinking of the (O)BS. I don't know if people can read between the lines here or not (I know that is very cryptic) but that is the situation.

@bob:

W and AP were together long, long before AP and (O)BS. I think I answered the other questions above.

It's interesting how people around the world think the same stupid things.

Eurgh tell me about it. If I did have a time machine, one of the first things I would do is go back and punch myself in the face.

@WalkinOnEggshelz: interesting food for thought. Don't have a response right now but will re-read this again over the next few days and contemplate.

@HellIsNotHalfFull: Thanks, I appreciate the insight. As I have alluded to above, I just hope that she doesn't ever find out. Not ideal, and I know it sucks.

@This0is0Fine: Thanks for elaborating. This is the kind of thing that I want to detail in my individual session with the MC. To ensure that this whole episode isn't just swept aside. Though I am confident it won't be, as she recommended books about healing from cheating after the first session rather than focussing on "I lost attraction for him".

@Wontbefooled:

I think, Ozzie, that a huge issue for you your entire life is standing up for yourself. At least that is what I have gotten from your threads. I mean, I happily see you settling for less than the bare minimum in your marriage.

Again, the power of reading on the internet. I know it sounds arrogant but this is so wrong it is hard to fathom anyone would think that. If I had a flaw it is that I am incredibly selfish! If on nights out or trips away I always force that I do the things that I want to do. Most people around me are indifferent and so go along with it.

Another comment about the bare minimum in a marriage. Could you please expand on this? As I said before all of this I would have put our marriage in the top 10% of people I know. Most people coast a little bit at our stage of life, but we were doing better than most (I thought...)

@JasonCh:

Are you saying that you would not care if your marriage was weird for a few months and then went back to normal that you would not want to know if it was an affair that caused it? Also -- do you think your marriage will ever get back to normal?

I think if the WS was able to deal with their demons and it was over, and they could live with the guilt, then it would possibly be easier for things to be more "normal" than with the knowledge of the A. I totally understand that my marriage will have to have a new normal now.

What is your thought process / feelings around telling the OBS in this particular scenario. Does OBS have more a right/need to know after POSOM contacts your WW and not now or is it more of a tool (make it seem like you are in control, keep them in line, ...) or some other reason?

Sorry need to be a bit cryptic again here. But as I said based on all of the information I have, I personally don't think it is a good idea to tell. BUT I also don't want to suffer anymore. I am confident that the A is over. If there is any contact at all, then I consider all bets to be off and what happens next is not for my conscience to deal with, it will purely due to POSOM. I know my wife won't contact, and I am also confident he won't.

I don't know if this will kick the (O)BS talk into the long grass or not. I would like it to, as I said at the beginning of what is turning into another long thread.

Ozzy, one way to change the topic is to introduce a new one. Is there something going on in your journey that you’d rather engage the community on? Really pulling for you.