SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

but as a family unit, we seem very strong to me. What evidence do you need for me to convey that that is the case

The reason people don't believe this,is because you said,several times,that you won't tell his wife,because if you do, your wife will divorce you. Around here,that's seen as her protecting him,over your family. That her loyalties lie with him,not you.

It's common for a ws to tell their bs some bullshit about the OBS being a cheater..or an abuser..or mentally ill..in order to keep their BS from telling.

You have given many reasons why you won't tell. It's been because she will leave you..or you made a promise in the beginning, and telling flies in the face of that..or your children need to be protected (from the divorce that will come if you tell)..he's remorseful and you believe it won't happen again, so why tell. Now there is a mystery reason.

Ozzy, one of the biggest reasons we've tried to get you to tell,is to protect You,and to help you heal. Giving your blessing(your word) for this relationship is the one thing you did wrong in all of this. By telling the truth to the person who deserves it, you can make amends,and start your healing.

Regardless, I agree that we all should stop trying to get you to tell. That is the last I will say about it from this point on. I know I've been tough on you. I sincerely apologize for that. All I can say is not only have I been fighting for his wife,but I've been fighting for you as well. I want you to heal. I want you to have the marriage you want. I know you made a terrible choice in a moment of trauma. I've felt in order for you to heal, that wrong needs to be made right. I accept I could be wrong.

Helpful hint..if you want to stop dealing with the people who will continue to try to get you to tell..then simply stop responding to those posts. Ignore them. You encourage those posts when you speak about it. Stop.

How is your wife doing when it comes to regaining her love for you? Any head way there?

You don’t have a strong family unit if your wife doesn’t respect you and treats you with contempt. You don’t have a strong family unit if your wife doesn’t love and desire you, and you are starved of passion and affection. There is no way that kids who are living in this marriage aren’t, at the very least, feeling the tension and instability that exists in their home, even if they don’t verbalize it. For example, it wasn’t that long ago that your wife broke no contact with OM while you were on a family vacation, and an even less time since she spent your last couple’s vacation flirting with your male friends while ignoring you and telling you to "shut the fuck up" when you called her out.

To Hellfire’s earlier point, you do seem to have very selective amnesia about things you told us about in the past and then get very perplexed— even to the point of outrage— when one of us brings it up. As I’ve said before, this presents a very difficult challenge when it comes to giving you constructive advice because you will often flat out pretend that you never said something you did say or will minimize the impact of things your wife has said and done that were clearly causing you distress in the moment.

I’m not saying your relationship is all bad; in fact, if there’s one thing that is consistent in your posts, it’s that you and your wife seem to operate quite well as co-parents and room mates… but fulfilling your "functional roles" in as part of a family is NOT the same as having a healthy and complete marriage based on love and respect because, at the moment, she has neither for you. If there’s anything you need to focus on in MC, it should be that.

I know you feel cornered and the responses here are not what you are looking for. Your situation is more complicated than a regular betrayed spouse who was blindsided by the cheating. You may have been coerced into agreeing to her cheating, but by mere agreeing to it too became an accomplice , however unwilling. You had a lot of power then, just by informing OBS. You have a lot of power now, but you refuse to excercise it. The thing is your wife really has had no consequences for her actions, you have mollycoddled her through her selfish decisions and continue to do so. You don’t think highly of OBS or AP but your wife isn’t any better either.

Your view of a strong family unit is very different and perhaps a bit skewed. Happened to me too. we all see what we want to see. It’s missing the most critical aspect of respect that is sorely lacking based on what your wife did. She blatantly told you she was going to be cheating whether you liked it or not.

Use the MC session wisely to tell your wife what you want in a respectful marriage , unapologetically. You will also benefit from IC, you sell yourself short by settling for less. You need to realize your self worth first,. You will have more clarity of the whole situation even better than with MC. This has to be about your individual growth as well. The old Ozzy isn’t going to cut it anymore.

[This message edited by Abalone123 at 7:47 PM, Wednesday, September 6th]

Ozzie, I too have to take exception to how you characterize your family as well as yourself. I don’t mean to say this to be mean but to ask you to explore this area in therapy. Your early decisions reeked of being fearful and although it does seem as there has been improvement in this area I am guessing there is a long way to go. I know for a fact we can think we know how other people see us but that can be far from the truth. A paradigm if you will. Explore this in therapy and see what comes of it.

Aside from the fact that your WW had fallen out of love with you, wanted to fuck another man, coerced you into letting her do it and then fell in love with him, you were a solid family unit. How you contine to twist everything to fit the narrative you want to believe continues to amaze me.

@InkHulk: Thanks, good point! I saw your power in asking people to just drop it in your thread, so I will do the same at the end of this post.

@Hellfire: Thanks very much, and especially for the apology. Water off a ducks back for me (and it seems for you as well) and as I have said before I know your heart is in the right place. I know a lot of my story matches others, cheaters handbook and all that, but surely there are little differences between every story that makes them unique in their own way. My issue lately has been when asking "What am I / my wife doing wrong at this point?" the answer (paraphrasing) seems to be "Well you won't tell the OBS therefore you don't have a family unit and your wife doesn't respect you". I would dearly love people to come up with different points of view to this for me to ponder.

I know she has treated me like utter, utter shit. We have stuff we need to work through. But I can only call it like I see it. We have been together 17 years. I only started posting on this website about 2 months into the worst period I (let alone my relationship) have ever experienced. Of course the picture painted on here will be incredibly negative. But I would have thought that is the case in pretty much every new poster here. I have posted about 100 times, if I went back and posted 1700 times about all the good stuff in my relationship before all this began it would paint a different picture, no?

I guess the point I am trying to make is I have had 6 months of things getting progressively worse, before which I had no idea there was even a major issue in my marriage. In hindsight of course I can now see the minor issues which we will work on, but things were pretty bloody good! Now that things are on the upswing (about 2 months in), why is it so hard to fathom that we could be a family unit and things be reasonably good? (Genuine question for you and others)

How is your wife doing when it comes to regaining her love for you? Any head way there?

Yeah, definitely. Random acts of kindness, physical touch, thanking me for the small things, etc. Her enthusiasm about the MC is really heartening as well despite the MC basically telling her that she is a cheater and recommending books about infidelity. I really feel she is owning her shit. I am not jumping ahead though even if this reads like I am. I am taking plenty of time to myself to exercise body and mind and think things through.

@BTB:

For example, it wasn’t that long ago that your wife broke no contact with OM while you were on a family vacation, and an even less time since she spent your last couple’s vacation flirting with your male friends while ignoring you and telling you to "shut the fuck up" when you called her out.

Further to the above, is there a given timeline that needs to go by before changes can be accepted to be happening? I am well aware that these things happened. She was a fucking bitch to me. Maybe I have better capacity to forgive than others? I don't know, I like to think of this as mental strength rather than weakness but I know these are words on a screen to all of you so I can understand how it could come across as weakness. Last week our MC was all about our relationship history (which I obviously won't go into here) and at the end she said "wow", in all my years doing this I don't think I have met another couple who have such a backstory and with so much invested in a relationship. I won't let less than 1 year of her losing her mind completely dictate the rest of our lives. Note this also doesn't mean I will rugsweep.

There really doesn't seem to be any tension in the home anymore. Granted there was, and of course I acknowledge the kids would have sensed some of it, but even in those moments we were operated

quite well as co-parents and room mates

, but I feel like that was us at our worst.

NOT the same as having a healthy and complete marriage based on love and respect because, at the moment, she has neither for you. If there’s anything you need to focus on in MC, it should be that.

This is the kind of thing that I would like further discussion on. Taking away anything about OBS as I won't be responding about that after this, why do you say she has neither for me now? What do you think she should be doing that she isn't? (That question isn't just at you - I feel everyone's brain is clouded by the OBS thing, either that or I can't see the forest for the trees in the responses as that completely took over again)

@Abalone:

It’s missing the most critical aspect of respect that is sorely lacking based on what your wife did. She blatantly told you she was going to be cheating whether you liked it or not.

Yeah, again, I know this and it was so fucked up. BUT that was then, this is now. Is it timeframe that means it can't be possible for her to be remorseful for it? Is it not enough therapy yet? I'd like more clarity from some of you why you are so sure there is no respect there now. Am very happy to be hit with 2x4s about this stuff, it will sink in a lot better with the other issue being banished from the conversation.

@Denny:

Your early decisions reeked of being fearful and although it does seem as there has been improvement in this area I am guessing there is a long way to go.

Always respect your opinion, but what I am doing (other than that which we won't speak of) which demonstrates fear? We were about to separate, I was willing to lose my marriage. I told the MC in our first session how I had gotten to the point of indifference and I meant it, the MC could see that and it had my wife in hysterics. I can't see what I am fearful of so am really interested.

Finally, @Unsure:

Aside from the fact that your WW had fallen out of love with you, wanted to fuck another man, coerced you into letting her do it and then fell in love with him, you were a solid family unit. How you contine to twist everything to fit the narrative you want to believe continues to amaze me.

Weird huh? I was listening to a podcast a while back about couples who divorce but manage to stay amazing friends with each other. It resonated, I think if we were to split we would be able to remain civil with each other (and not just for the kids, because we like each other). As a family, I feel like we have been pretty solid, even at our worst points. Now that we are on the upswing, even better. As I have said a few times, I can only tell things as I see them, I am really not trying to paint a narrative.

So to quote myself from page 1:

Spoiler: I didn't tell (O)BS. If this triggers perhaps stop reading now.

There's really no point in anyone posting about that anymore as it will be ignored. Thanks for all of the other brilliant advice. Have said it before and will say it again - I was an absolute state when I first posted on this website. I have come along so much as a person since then, and have appreciated all of the advice I have received, and the anecdotes / experience from a range of viewpoints and personalities. I feel so much better equipped to deal with whatever is next, no matter the outcome because of it. So thanks, I appreciate it.

For what it’s worth… If posters feel like this thread triggers them, if they feel they can only reply in anger or if they have doubts about the benefit to the OP for their posts… Remember you can always skip this thread. Plenty of people that need help and might be more willing to listen to what is said.

Ozzy

I admit I haven’t read this thread or your other threads from beginning to end.

What I can share though about the advice generally offered here is that it is based on experience, and a lot of it could probably be statistically supported as correct.
Like… I think (and I do recall a true statistical survey on this) that someone that cheats once is something like 4x more likely to cheat again. However, this does NOT mean they WILL cheat again, only that the odds you are dealing with as a betrayed spouse are significantly worse.

I am firmly in the school that thinks reconciliation can only be built on a base of truth. I don’t have any scientific survey or proof for this, but I just think that if – at age 80 – when you look at your wife and your dominant thought is "did she really end the affair back then in 2012" then you have led a life that hasn’t reached its potential.

I also think that the best way to lower the risk of a repeat (with same or other AP) is for the WS to have fully accepted responsibility and to have grasped the damage caused. I think a person that truly gets it is less likely to want to cause the same damage, shame and pain.

I think letting the other spouse know generally increases the odds of an affair ending. The general reaction is that the AP focuses on his/her marriage. Instead of the "I think it’s better we lay low for some time. I will contact you when your spouse is calmer" it becomes "get the f@ck out of my life!" and/or "you were only a good lay to me". Exposure tends to remove the romance and the glory, leaving the White Knight in a rusty suit smelling of piss and sweat.

But… there is no guarantee….
No guarantee with ANY of the "facts" or "stats" I shared.
For all I know you can look at your wife at 80 fully content.
You can rebuild with questions.
Your marriage can be free of further infidelity.
Your wife and OM might never again have any form of contact.

Stats aren’t facts – they are not given. You don’t put on your seatbelt when you enter a vehicle because you are GOING to crash. You do so because statistically you MIGHT crash.

So Ozzy – our advice is based on what is likely to happen. You are totally free to pick-and-chose or even ignore anything and everything we share. I will admit that in doing so extensively you would make me question what you are hoping of from this site…
But just keep in mind that when you defy a probability and then defy another one… the odds of something going wrong multiply.

Finally: Sometimes the best way forward is by starting again.
In your instance then maybe a very frank discussion about the past, but an emphasis on what it is you want from the future. If you and your wife have the same view on what your future might be… then you can start building for that, rather than scrounge through the ruins of the past.
Only remember: Without a good foundation you cant build anything that is solid.

Like… I think (and I do recall a true statistical survey on this) that someone that cheats once is something like 4x more likely to cheat again.

Not sure how much I'm allowed to direct quote from the NIH Once a Cheater, Always a Cheater? Serial Infidelity Across Subsequent Relationships longitudional study but those who admitted to cheating in their first relationship during the study also cheated in another 3.4x more than those who didn't admit to cheating in their first. 45% of respondents compared to 18% of those who didn't cheat in their first. That would seem to mean that getting involved with a cheater gives you slightly less than an 1 in 2 chance of getting cheated on compared to a 1/5 chance of getting involved with someone who hadn't admit to cheating.

I think what's even more frightening is someone getting cheated on is 2.4x more likely to get cheated on again (22% compared to 9%). If the stats hold that also means that only half of them were aware of getting cheated on.

Ozzy, Not sure if I missed something related to her remorse and respect for you but what it seems to me is she is/was being sad about having to discontinue her selfish indulgence with her AP while you were pushing to keep the family unit intact. Her sighing about her lack of interest in her own husband and you being heart broken but understanding about it and giving her time to rekindle her interest.

True remorse and respect for you would look very different. She wouldn’t need the push from you and MC to see what she has done. Has there been any self introspection and reflection into her selfish actions ? Has she felt even a tad bit of remorse about destroying another marriage ? What is she doing to make up for what she has done to you? She still went in to MC justifying the affair because you agreed to it . Where’s the respect and remorse?

Maybe I have better capacity to forgive than others? I don't know, I like to think of this as mental strength rather than weakness but I know these are words on a screen to all of you so I can understand how it could come across as weakness

You are not more or less forgiving than us veterans. The vast majority of us were, at one point, desperate to save our marriages and were willing to cling to any glint of hope—however faint— that indicated our marriages could be saved and that our spouses loved us and cared for us. For many of us, though not all, that hope was misplaced. This is why we take little stock in anything your wife says; only her actions matter.

As for whether you come across as weak, I will say that you do… because I was weak, too. Like you, I once treated and felt like my cheating spouse was the higher value partner in the relationship. He knew I was terrified of leaving him and that disadvantaged me; the balance of power was in his favor, which meant he didn’t have any incentive to put the work in.

If your wife actually had to contend with the idea that you don’t desire her at the expense of yourself and that you would and could leave at any time, I think you would see a rapid shift in her attitude. She might even start to lust after you again.

This is the kind of thing that I would like further discussion on. Taking away anything about OBS as I won't be responding about that after this, why do you say she has neither for me now?

I say she doesn’t have love or respect for you because (unless something drastically has changed) she’s not attracted to you, disrespects you, and still expects you to stick around and serve as her husband appliance. Until a professional called her out, she was still clinging to your "agreement" to justify her actions.

Most importantly, there’s nothing she has said or done to indicate that she wants to rebuild a marriage; she just wants to retain the status quo. Maybe that will change at some point, but only when she feels that she has something to lose.

That your wife knew about AP cheating with OBS and getting together gives the narrative a whole other meaning. I fear that you come dangerously close to minimizing and rationalizing just because you hope for a certain outcome. We couldn't establish why your wife had lost attraction and love for you, was it because of AP or was their 'affair' just the result of it, as we talked about it I made my opinion on that clear. But your wife knowing those details about AP and OBS is a bit strange. So she kept in touch with her 'ex' over the years, maybe you attended social activities together, then your "thing" happened and your wife suddenly turns to AP, was is because he was just there and an opportunity, an easy way? She could have gone a different route, she knew AP was in a relationship, so even with you "knowing", she knew that it would affect another relationship and another person, it would be cheating. Let's assume she knew already at that point how AP and OBS got together, that would make your wife even more suspicious, she knew AP and OBS were homewreckers, she didn't care or mind and involved herself into that mess. So at that point I could understand if someone just looking for a hookup with a random person they likely wouldn't care/mind what their AP's situation would be like, but your wife never looked at AP as just a random hookup or pump and dump. I feel there was more between them. I find the other way quite non-credible, your wife and AP getting together again just because it was an easy opportunity, so she hadn't to go on "tinder" or use other ways to find some guy, and then AP telling her afterwards, "btw I was the AP to my now partner and she left her old man for me, but now I'm cheating on her with you". This kind of story is often times used by "WS" to deflect and make them look good because it makes AP even worse. So, as I said this turn of events make your wife even more suspicious. Please don't get hyped and become foolish.

So, OBS was an AP, too. That's an interesting convenient twist in this strange story. I am inclined to believe that you found about this only recently. Otherwise, you would have given us this important piece of information a long time ago. If yes, then your wife wasn't as honest as you claim her to be. Otherwise, she would have given you this very important information that would have easily flagged her AP as a threat to your family before she sought your 'permission'.

I think there are still more twists and turns in your story. Keep us updating.

Let's go along with Ozzy,and believe his wife has never lied to him about any of this.

Let's believe the other guy did tell Ozzy's wife that his wife cheated on her husband to be with him.

Why are we believing anything an actively cheating husband is telling his OW?? We all know it's extremely common for a WS to lie to the AP. I mean they're lying to the person they made a vow to, we all know they lie to the AP as well.

We all know it's extremely common for a WS to tell their AP that their spouse is cheating on them,or did cheat on them, or even with them. Or their spouse is abusive,neglectful,not having sex with them,etc,etc. It's extremely rare for a ws to tell their AP that their spouse and marriage is great. Lol. They would look like a horrible person if they're cheating on a spouse who loves them,and treats them well. So they lie. WE ALL KNOW THIS.

So, let's take a step back here, and remember this supposedly came from an actively cheating husband.

…and I’m sure that your wife wasn’t just nodding sympathetically while her lover was bashing his wife, Ozzy.

I’m curious to know what justification she gave him for why she was cheating on you. After all, she hid the fact that you knew they were sleeping together from her lover. That’s another topic for MC.

Well you won't tell the OBS therefore you don't have a family unit and your wife doesn't respect you".

No one has said this is why you don't have a strong marriage,or why your wife doesn't respect you.

Your marriage wasn't strong because your wife needed an escape. She has no respect for you because of her own bullshit.

Ozzy..you say you don't want to talk about OBS..yet YOU MENTION HER SEVERAL TIMES in your last post.

The truth is, you know nothing about her,or her marriage,except her husband cheats.

If you aren't going to show her respect by telling her,then the least that you can do is not disparage her on a public forum.

All you know is what a cheating husband told his girlfriend. And cheaters lie..to their spouse, to their AP, and to themselves.

If you want people to stop talking about that, then YOU need to stop bringing her up,and YOU need to stop responding to the comments that do.

Hellfire:

Why are we believing anything an actively cheating husband is telling his OW??

I don't think this new information could be a lie. This information can be easily verified by OP and his wife. So, why would AP lie about something that can be easily verified.

Really?

Waywards lie to their AP about all kinds of things. We see it here every day.

In this situation, WH was told her husband didn't even know. So no risk. And he knew his OW knew the deal to begin with. She was told he wouldn't leave his wife for her.

Ws don't think they will be caught. They lie to their AP all the time.

In this situation, nothing will ever be verified, because Ozzy will never call the wife..and the wife certainly won't. She wants the AP protected. So much so that she is willing to lose time with her kids,and divorce her husband, to make sure of it.

I find it shocking that anyone is believing anything an actively cheating husband is saying to his AP.

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:11 PM, Thursday, September 7th]

Lol..my wh told ow we weren't having sex. We were having sex every day.

Ow told my husband her husband had been in jail for beating her. Guess what? He didn't have a record. I checked.

I mean, they could have verified what they had told each other, by calling the BS's..but that would have ruined the magic.

I know cheaters lie a lot. I have seen WS lying to their AP by claiming that their BS cheated on them in the past. The motive behind such lies is to gain sympathy from their AP. But in this case, AP is claiming his marriage is an affair marriage and he is a homewrecker. I don't see how he would gain sympathy/ score points from Ozzy's wife by telling this epic lie unless ozzy's wife is a serial cheater who doesn't care what and who her AP is.

I understand the motive behind painting OBS as a jealous and cheating woman, but I dont see how painting himself as a cheater and homewrecker would help him gain Ms.Ozzy's trust and sympathy/score for him.

If it's a lie, then it's a lie told not by AP but by Ozzy's wife. Because she is the only person who gains from this lie.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 9:41 PM, Thursday, September 7th]

Yes! I agree. This is a common lie ws tell their BS,so they wont feel any need to contact the OBS. But,according to Ozzy, his wife is as honest as it gets.

He told his ow he would never leave his wife for her. Maybe he told her he was the OM in his wife's previous marriage, and she left her marriage for him,so he feels obligated to stay.

I just think it's weird that we are all suddenly believing the word of an actively cheating husband..something he told his OW.

[This message edited by HellFire at 10:30 PM, Thursday, September 7th]