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Ozzie, I know your tired of this subject but here’s another thought about telling the OBS. Why not bring the subject up in marriage counseling? Saying you feel some moral push to tell the OBS. You and your wife will hear what the Mc has to say and you can gage your wife’s reaction to the question. At some point as she moves closer to you and truly understands what she’s done to her marriage, she will not be as opposed to this as she has been or is now. Don’t you want to know her feelings on the subject now? As you know by now, this is a trigger for all betrayed because unlike you they did not know that their spouse were having sex with another. Try putting yourself in their shoes. Think about how that would feel after a few weeks, months or even years you find out. And then realize later that people or at least one person knew all along and did not tell you. That is why the reactions are so visceral. For you it is in the past. All tucked away under that rug you have it in. But to her if she ever finds out…it will be like it happened today. The betrayed on this site understand that at a level you do not. Your wife did not cheat behind your back. Add that element to what you’ve went thru and see how you fell about it. Now, with that said, I am glad you are making progress and you wife is starting to see what she’s done to you and the marriage and I do agree with you that you have a long road ahead. But the first step has been taken. Safe travels my friend.

If we are to believe Ozzy, he has said..

He gave his enthusiastic consent,when his wife approached him,asking if she can have an "escape" with a former man she has been with in the past.

He has said her having sex with this man brought them closer. She came home and told him everything. He also asked her not to do certain sexual things with this man, and when he was told she obeyed his wishes, he felt good,and in control.

He has maintained that his wife has been completely honest about this entire thing. He steadfastly believes this.

His wife caught feelings,he became upset,because he felt her focus wasn't on him as much as he'd like,and he asked her to end the relationship. She did immediately.

She wasn't happy with it,because,after all, he was perfectly OK with it,or at least made her believe he was,and she resented him for saying it was ok in the first place,because now that her fix is gone,she's unhappy.

Neither of them considered his wife,or children, for one minute. They still don't.

This was an affair on the other guys part. Ozzys wife is an AP. But she's not a WS.

This was an open marriage (IIRC, his wife told him she was perfectly fine with him having his own escape,that he chose not to take it,doesn't mean he didn't have the option). Ozzy was enthusiastic about his wife being with another man, until his wife's affection shifted away from him.

This wasn't an affair. In order for it to have been an affair, there would have to have been a betrayal. Ozzy says she was honest,and she has done all he asked,short of breaking NC once,in which they talked about how bad they both felt. According to Ozzy.

He will never tell the guy's wife,because he played an integral part of the affair between her husband, and his wife. Ozzy has said nothing would have happened, had he not given permission. He believes that. He and his wife both helped OM have an affair. He knows this. It's why he won't tell the man's wife.

If anything, this serves as a warning to those who think opening their marriage is a good idea. Sure,it can work. If all parties involved are..involved. But if your spouse is looking for an escape, MC is a much better course of action.

And to those who will say he was coerced..for a short time, I thought so too. But I just can't get past the fact that he says he gave ENTHUSIASTIC CONSENT,and hearing about the sex she just had with the other guy brought them closer. Saying he felt he had no choice but to say ok...but hearing Ozzy say the two examples I've given..you can't have both. Ozzy said it wasn't a betrayal..so there's that.

You have claimed 2 things. You say you enthusiastically gave consent for your wife to explore her feelings,and have sex, with another man. You also say you didn't really want to give consent, but did so anyway because she was Hell bent on being with this man. Which is the actual truth?

Ozzy, I have asked this question a million times before and have gotten various responses. In fact, when we have called your wife out on coercing you to open your marriage, you usually push back and say that no, you were completely on board. But when the therapist says you didn’t want to open the marriage but reluctantly agreed, you praise her for "tearing your wife a new one."

Seriously, though… which is it?

To give your wife a bit of credit here, if we’re confused about your true feelings and motivations and how they were communicated, then it makes sense that your wife feels blindsided and perplexed as well.

My frank assessment is that you are completely motivated by fear and insecurity, and your decisions are actually facilitating the decay of your marriage rather than salvaging it. When your wife embarked on her emotional affair and then decided to take it physical, you knew it was a bad idea but you didn’t want to drive her away by fighting back so you allowed it. Then you saw her fall back in love with the AP and were terrified of losing her so you cried foul and pulled the plug.

As I’ve said before, the biggest hurdle you have to reconciliation (or a healthy marriage in general) is that your wife doesn’t respect you. And she will never respect you so long as you act without agency— letting her set the terms of the relationship and then casting yourself in the passive, victim role when things don’t go your way.

Instead, you need to proactively set your boundaries, state and stand firm on your deal breakers, and be accountable for your own actions. One way (and perhaps the most important way) is to tell OBS the truth, which is that your wife had an affair with her husband with your knowledge and consent, and that you are deeply sorry for helping to facilitate this terrible betrayal.

You can’t set one standard of behavior for yourself and another for your wife.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 3:30 PM, Sunday, September 3rd]

Going to add one more thing here from the perspective of being a BS. You ( and the other two) have taken away a woman’s choice of being in a happy, healthy marriage. Her choice to have a faithful partner devoted to her. Her choice to be respected in a relationship. Her choice to end her marriage when all of the above were denied to her.
She’s probably wondering why her husband isn’t as interested in her anymore, wondering what is wrong with her, wondering how she can fix this. Wondering if she is not good enough. All the while her scum of a husband tells her everything is fine. She’s making life plans, putting her financial stability and future at the hands of someone capable of cheating on her.
Meanwhile your wife gets to choose if she is going to have mindless sex with this married man, with your blessing. So very callous, unfair and selfish.

You are putting off the fire in your home while someone else’s home is up in flames.

Oh God. He is not going to tell her. Period. So, beating on his head isn't going to help. No amount of internet advice will help him develop sufficient empathy for obs. So, just leave it for godsake.

If not telling obs will have its own negative effect on their marriage, then I am sure OP is ready to deal with it in whatever way he chooses.

They have finally reached the door of therapy. Let the MC handle this case.

MC usually tell their clients not to tell anyone,especially the other spouse involved. They are trying to treat the marriage,and the more people who know,the less likely the couple is to stay together. They don't get the need to tell. But WE do.

However, Lurking, I do agree. He will never tell the man's wife.

He is choosing all the consequences that come with that.

He will never tell the guy's wife,because he played an integral part of the affair between her husband, and his wife. Ozzy has said nothing would have happened, had he not given permission. He believes that. He and his wife both helped OM have an affair. He knows this. It's why he won't tell the man's wife.

Good lord. I missed that part. So Ozzy is an offending party to the OBS if he knew the AP was married.

Own your shit, man, and tell the OBS. If you don't, you're just as bad as your WW and the AP.

Lurking, I know Ozzy isn’t going to tell AP’s wife. I’m just pointing out that he can’t alternate between victim and accomplice whenever it suits him. He can’t demand accountability from her while simultaneously enabling her.

To quote The White Stripes, "Who’s using who/what shall we do/well you can’t be a pimp and a prostitute, too."

So Ozzy is an offending party to the OBS if he knew the AP was married

He knew. He gave enthusiastic consent. His words.

He didn't consider the other guy's wife,or children. She was more of an object,not a human being.

Ozzy wants a wife who is honest and acts with integrity, meanwhile he refuses to do the same.

BluerThanBlue: I understand the intentions behind your post but everything that needed to be said has been said in many different ways by many different people and yet he hasn't shown even 1% inclination towards informing obs. My assumption is he lacks enough empathy. We know from waywards how difficult it is to change the mind of person who lacks empathy. If that's the case, then nothing will change his mind and you will only waste your precious time and energy.

MC usually tell their clients not to tell anyone,especially the other spouse involved. They are trying to treat the marriage,and the more people who know,the less likely the couple is to stay together. They don't get the need to tell. But WE do.

And WE DID. HE HEARD. And he told us that he won't tell. So,let's move on.

No we are just pointing out the hypocrisy here before pages after pages are devoted helping poor Ozzy for the shit he willingly put himself in. That’s it.

Ozzy wants a wife who is honest and acts with integrity, meanwhile he refuses to do the same.

Well, ain't that some shit.

Long post incoming. As someone said a long time ago I could just disappear into the dark, but I actually don't want to. I have had such support and help from this site, that I would like to be able to repay the favour in the future. Unfortunately it seems this issue will prevent me from having any respect on here and so I might need to say my goodbyes shortly. (eg. when I tried to write a message of support to InkHulk HF basically told me I didn't have the right to offer that support). Has not telling OBS been such a criteria for other posters, or is it just me? I feel like there is sympathy to my plight when there is a gap of the talk about OBS, but then I become the spawn of satan when it comes up again.

This will be a bit of a spew out of info so let me know if any of it doesn't make sense.

So a post in 2 parts:

What actually happened

@Hellfire even though I don't agree with the way you try the steamroller approach on people, I have almost always respected what you have said. But in the last few posts you have said over and again that I gave my "enthusiastic support" to my wife fucking someone else. This is a spectactular amount of grade A horseshit. I looked back on my first post on the first thread and I used the word "reluctantly" even then. If you can find anything saying otherwise I will donate £10 to the charity of your choice.

In bullet points:

- My wife said she lost feelings for me

- 12 days later after not having a fucking clue why and going insane she admitted she had feelings for this POS who she had been seeing for dinner and stuff with my permission (as he was just a friend and I had "nothing to worry about")

- She wanted to leave me (she claimed not because of him)

- Seeing no other option, as she admitted she would see him behind my back if I said no, I bent my brain into a pretzel to think if she gets this out of her system with me knowing about it then we can recover better than it being in secret.

- I ALWAYS caveated that I didn't actually want her to, but if she was going to I would rather know about it than it be behind her back.

- I also did ask about the (O)BS in the lead up, as I thought it was all a bit fucked up that POSOM was just cheating on her (remember he never knew about any of this, he was simply cheating on his wife).

In this period of time my brain was mush. I wasn't thinking straight. I wish like hell I had found this website about a month earlier than I did. I could have told (O)BS before anything happened, would have still gone through a rough patch in my marriage but without all this bullshit. Sadly I didn't.

And back to the "enthusiasm" part - after the first time I was physically ill. My wife saw that. She could see me losing weight, not sleeping. She still went back for a second round a few weeks later. That is when I searched out this site, and immediately told her to end it. She had a blip later on meeting up with him. I forced NC then, and said I will tell (O)BS if she doesn't obide by this. There has been NC since.

I have been willing to lose the marriage. She wanted to separate, we had a deposit down. I said if we do that we are done. That was the turning point. I think if we separated she would have tried to contact him, and she realised the implications of it all finally.

Telling (O)BS

Some new information to come. I haven't felt like I should be sharing this but it is part of my thought process, it may or may not make a difference to how anyone thinks but there we go.

It is definitely true that my "agreement" gave me pause to telling. I know this is shit but it is part of my thinking. I wish I had never agreed to anything, I was so weak.

Also, like others have said, you would want the OBS to tell you if the roles were reversed, wouldn't you?

I actually, genuinely don't know. If I had a few weird months in my marriage but then things went pretty much back to normal, to then be told the real reasons for them and possibly end the marriage when things can carry on reasonably OK??? I don't know. This A is over. It really is. If it isn't at any point, then I will donate more money to charities of all of your choices and I will also tell (O)BS and I will also eat my hat. If I wasn't so confident of all of that then it would be a different story.

@This0is0Fine - I think I see where you are coming from. I still don't quite see the difference between R and trying R though. The MC is 2 sessions in, and is having a big impact. We have had tender moments and they are growing by the day. This week we speak to the MC individually, and @Dennylast (thanks for your measured approach with me as always by the way) I do plan on discussing this stuff with her.

@Abalone: I have read that post of yours a number of times now. I wish I could have my time again and be stronger. I totally agree with all those that have said that by making the decision to not tell, I need to own my shit and any repurcussions. I will.

@HF: I am afraid until that "ENTHUSIASTIC CONSENT" stuff is dealt with I can't take your posts seriously anymore. People have always said take what you want from these threads and because of the respect you have on here I feel like it taints other peoples opinions. This place has helped me so much so it guts me that there is such a negative thought process towards me, as I said I would like to help others (especially those who may end up in my situation).

@BTB: Your question is worded in a more compassionate way so fair enough. The answer is I NEVER EVER wanted this. But I did say "Yes". My wife grabbed hold of that and went for it. So what the MC drew out from us is that just because someone reluctantly agrees to something but clearly doesn't want it, doesn't mean you have to do it. If you love them and care for them you wouldn't. I guess that is why I was defending my wife, she had "agreement" which in my view (still) doesn't make what she did quite as bad as going behind my back. She still fucked another man knowing that I would rather she didn't though....

[This message edited by Ozzy1788 at 11:52 AM, Tuesday, September 19th]

Ozzy, for what it’s worth, I appreciated your support when you gave it. You probably saw Emergent’s text wall on not following the company line on everything, I have to say that was really helpful to me. I’m going to take all kinds of shit for saying so, but alas, part of the price to be paid. You continue to have the courage to put your stuff out here and I admire that.
SI, are we really going to alienate Ozzy over one point where he has laid out his hesitations clearly and repeatedly? Could there be a path of giving him time, allowing him to grow, to gently point out some areas as the story continues to unfold where the choice could be problematic? No one is going to check every box. If you need reminding, he is under immense stress in his life, let’s make this place a net positive for him. That’s my hope. Love you guys.

Ozzy, thanks for taking the time to respond and provide clarity on a few points.

If you can find anything saying otherwise I will donate £10 to the charity of your choice.

In your first thread,that is now in the General forum page 8...

(There is a rule about bringing quotes from ne thread into another,IIRC, so I won't be direct quoting)

Page 14 of your original post, you say you were reluctant at first, but the more you thought about it,the more you became "totally ok" with her meeting him to have sex.

On page 22,you talk about how,at first, her having sex with him brought the 2 of you closer.

And,on page 23, you mention if she meets him behind your back,then it would be cheating..but everything has been above board up until now(indicating you don't think of it as cheating because you knew everything and she had been honest).

Page 23..the two of you were EXCITED by the prospect of her having sex with this man. That,yes,at first you were reluctant, but you came to be ok with her having her fun with this man.

So..you were excited about it,and the sex between them made you feel closer to her.

And..that's as far as I got in that very long thread. I don't think I need to read further.

You can donate to St Judes Cancer research.

As an aside..I had the opportunity to read my old posts again. I have realized I come across harsher than my intent. So,though you did try to say I was putting out false info, I learned something. I will work on my responses in the future,and try not to be so blunt.

[This message edited by HellFire at 2:49 PM, Monday, September 4th]

I said this before, everyone here made mistakes in their own experience of infidelity. Everyone. Some people corrected them when they could, others did not. You have to make your own decisions based on the knowledge you have and the pressure you are under.

I did not have an OBS to inform. If there was one I believe I would have done it because my instinct for revenge is high. Not a good look, but there it is. I think informing is a good principle but you have to make the call and be ok with it. And timing does matter in your situation as I see it. Dennylast had an interesting suggestion for you... broach the idea that not informing the OBS is bothering you in a MC session at some point in the near future and see where it goes. See your wife's reaction. Maybe not this week but perhaps once you two have made more progress in a month or two.

As far as the pushback you have been getting here at SI, I do think you are being a bit bullied. I get the inform the OBS rationale but it is frustrating to see the endless complaints and comments nonetheless. It frustrates me for a number of reasons:

--You were bullied by your wife in her infidelity, as many BS are, and now you are getting harrassed here too. I do feel like it is harrassment when people endlessly deride a member for something they do or say.

--No one here has any proof that a BS who says they told the OBS is telling the truth. Who knows, many might just say they did it to get people off their back. Or say they tried their best but couldn't get confirmation or get through to OBS. But some here seem to act as if Ozzy is the only one who never acted. Ridiculous.

--There are all sorts of good actions that all of us could be doing that we fail to do for one reason or another. Some people come across here, and this is an exaggeration... but it's as if they are the perfect moral crusader. Righting all wrongs they come in contact with. Feeding and clothing the poor, visiting the imprisoned, tutoring kids with absent parents, rescuing abused kids. Shouldn't we look first in the mirror at our own set of failed actions before condemning someone else?

I understand that Ozzy not informing OBS is triggering to many. But we have the option to not come to this thread. That is open to everyone. If you do choose to write Ozzy, perhaps just a bit more empathy might be found for someone struggling to save their marriage. Perhaps reminders to inform the OBS might be given just a bit gentler, just a bit less frequent.

And perhaps a few specific people here could acknowledge that Ozzy has been confused and bullied while trying to save his marriage to the point where he made some very large mistakes. By his own admission. And that his posts here have reflected that confusion with candor and detail. SI has helped him grow through that, we don't really need to throw it in his face, do we?

Hellfire, you have a pm.

Ozzy, thanks for taking the time to respond and provide clarity on a few points.

Yes, thank you. Details make all the difference.