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Torn

Topic is Sleeping.
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 10:31 PM on Thursday, September 7th, 2023

Ozzy..I don't know if you've said..but if your marriage has been so amazing..so much so that the MC said she's never seen a couple like the two of you before..then why did your wife need to escape into a relationship with another man? What were her reasons?

Our field of dreams,engulfed in fire..and I'll still see it,till the day I die..

posts: 6762   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8806882
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Potentialforevil ( member #83626) posted at 10:44 PM on Thursday, September 7th, 2023

Ozzy, as the downsides of your situation have been so strongly highlightened, I will focus on other aspects.

You have been wrong under high stress, you admit and correct it and this is the best thing you can do. Your wife, though wayward, does show you much more respect, even during the affair, then most waywards do. You do your best to keep your family together, much more than most people would do, without showing much anger and resentment. That is your way to show strenght. I admire it. I don't know for sure but I belive I would become cruel, cunning and ruthless in your situation.

I don't know if this is enough as your W seems to be ... let's say underdeveloped in her core, but you seem to be a great person, just hold to your strengh, don't yield, don't split the difference, and you and your kids will be fine, whatever happens.

[This message edited by Potentialforevil at 10:54 PM, Thursday, September 7th]

posts: 51   ·   registered: Jul. 20th, 2023
id 8806884
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Potentialforevil ( member #83626) posted at 11:06 PM on Thursday, September 7th, 2023

MC said she's never seen a couple like the two of you before

Great question. Seems that some people get bored in Eden. Made for the ... rolleyes

posts: 51   ·   registered: Jul. 20th, 2023
id 8806887
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BluerThanBlue ( member #74855) posted at 12:03 AM on Friday, September 8th, 2023

I understand the motive behind painting OBS as a jealous and cheating woman, but I dont see how painting himself as a cheater and homewrecker would help him gain Ms.Ozzy's trust and sympathy/score for him.

Ms. Ozzy was OM’s ex-girlfriend and they have an established relationship, so it’s not that far-fetched that he would be more honest with her about his bad behavior than a woman he didn’t know well and didn’t trust. Also, there’s a certain brand of douchebag (an abundance of which you can find on the adultery subreddit) who love to boast about their conquests. Since Mrs. Ozzy was enthusiastic about embarking on an affair with him— which she lied and said was behind Ozzy’s back— then she certainly wasn’t standing on a moral high ground from which to judge him.

If there’s any relevance to OM’s history for Ozzy, it’s the fact that this guy boasted about how he blew up a marriage before… and Mrs Ozzy still invited him into hers.

BW, 40s

Divorced WH in 2015; now happily remarried

I edit my comments a lot for spelling, grammar, typos, etc.

posts: 2005   ·   registered: Jul. 13th, 2020
id 8806904
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 Ozzy1788 (original poster member #83108) posted at 12:35 AM on Friday, September 8th, 2023


then why did your wife need to escape into a relationship with another man? What were her reasons?

Because she's a fucking idiot??? Who on earth wouldn't desire me???


Sorry I've been out watching heavy metal. I'll reply better tmw.

[This message edited by Ozzy1788 at 12:37 AM, Friday, September 8th]

posts: 175   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2023   ·   location: UK
id 8806908
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BluerThanBlue ( member #74855) posted at 1:36 AM on Friday, September 8th, 2023

Great flick! 🤘🏻🤘🏻

BW, 40s

Divorced WH in 2015; now happily remarried

I edit my comments a lot for spelling, grammar, typos, etc.

posts: 2005   ·   registered: Jul. 13th, 2020
id 8806911
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bob7777 ( member #79867) posted at 3:08 PM on Friday, September 8th, 2023

It doesn't matter whether the information, AP and OBS were homewreckers and started from an exit affair, is true or not. It is more important how this information, when it was accessible to WS, affected her behavior. The Timeline is weird.

And as LS said it's not about lying, it's about what the benefit would be. If someone ist just looking for a random hookup and finds someone who expressively tells them, yeah np I cheat all the time and my current relationship is just a result of that same matter, then I understand if the person doesn't mind, because they don't look for something complicated.

So if WS knew beforehand, whas that knowledge justification for her to "destroy" another relationship or was is kind of a exciting promise to her? Her old ex still choosing her over his new woman and is there more behind it why she didn't just chose someone from "tinder".

The other way her not knowing beforehand, she starts an "affair", lies to AP about you not knowing, I don't know if this is true and I doubt it. You always point out how "honest" your wife is, that would give her an appearance of integrity which maybe is important to your WS, so why should she give the pretense of being a homewrecker herself to her AP and ex? At some point this must have been an topic. WS and AP managing to get together and having sex, but AP knows you and WS are together. So either she lied to AP or she lied to you that she lied to AP. I believe the paint is coming off slowly.

So they met up and had sex twice? If AP gave your WS the info afterwards the first time they had sex, ask yourself why she went for a 2nd time knowing all of this. If AP told her about him and OBS after the 2nd time, why now and what could be the purpose, why attempting to make himself look bad? Why didn't she tell you earlier?

[This message edited by bob7777 at 3:09 PM, Friday, September 8th]

posts: 106   ·   registered: Feb. 1st, 2022
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 Ozzy1788 (original poster member #83108) posted at 4:41 PM on Friday, September 8th, 2023

@Bigger:

Thanks and understand completely. I did maths / stats at uni so my whole life is based on weighing up probabilities!

Abalone:

True remorse and respect for you would look very different. She wouldn’t need the push from you and MC to see what she has done. Has there been any self introspection and reflection into her selfish actions ? Has she felt even a tad bit of remorse about destroying another marriage ? What is she doing to make up for what she has done to you? She still went in to MC justifying the affair because you agreed to it . Where’s the respect and remorse?

Wording is important isn't it? I am realising more when communicating with strangers on a screen that subtle differences in wording can make a big difference. She has masses of remorse for what she has done to me. She isn't "justifying" the affair, the "agreement" was simply part of the lead up to it and she maintains that nothing physical would have happened without my "agreement". That is something we will never know, I know it would make her unique but our situation is our situation. It is possible that this was the case. It doesn't excuse what was clearly an EA at that point though.

BTB:

As for whether you come across as weak, I will say that you do… because I was weak, too. Like you, I once treated and felt like my cheating spouse was the higher value partner in the relationship. He knew I was terrified of leaving him and that disadvantaged me; the balance of power was in his favor, which meant he didn’t have any incentive to put the work in.

I keep feeling like everyone is missing an important thing so I will say it again... we were about to separate! She could see I was OK with that and I had had enough of this bullshit. That was her turning point, seeing that she was about to lose me. I feel like on this advice I have followed it to a T. Am I missing something?

That has precipitated a massive change in her. It isn't a flick of a switch but there is very rapid progress in all areas. We laugh together, we cuddle together, yes we have been having sex again. She talks about her guilt, and apologises to me. She is open with the MC. I am still not quite understanding what is expected of her?

I’m curious to know what justification she gave him for why she was cheating on you

Do WS's ever give justification? They both knew it was wrong, they just wanted to because they were assholes. When she called him to enforce NC he (supposedly) totally agreed with how fucking stupid they had been, so there's that.

If there’s any relevance to OM’s history for Ozzy, it’s the fact that this guy boasted about how he blew up a marriage before… and Mrs Ozzy still invited him into hers.

He was never a prime candidate to fall in love with. And she knows now that it wasn't love, and that he was a dickwad who preyed on a lack of self confidence. So it was just meant to be an escape. It clearly didn't work out that way.

Great flick!

Ha, was actual live music. Was a good night!

@Bob:

But your wife knowing those details about AP and OBS is a bit strange. So she kept in touch with her 'ex' over the years, maybe you attended social activities together, then your "thing" happened and your wife suddenly turns to AP, was is because he was just there and an opportunity, an easy way?

No she didn't keep in touch with him over the years, it was out of the blue about 4 years ago that he got in contact. I have never met him or his wife. My wife has never met his wife. And yeah, he was there. She was never meant to fall for him. But she did.

As for the stuff about lying to him, she 100% lied to him about loads of stuff. Honesty with me (mostly), pure lies with him. That is part of what has helped her start to escape from the fog. She can see (more than before) how he isn't special, that their whole relationship is based on lies and bullshit.

@Lurkingsoul:

In the words of Andy Dufresne, I find this whole situation decidedly inconvenient....

@HF:

As requested, not commenting! On this bit though:

Ozzy..I don't know if you've said..but if your marriage has been so amazing..so much so that the MC said she's never seen a couple like the two of you before..then why did your wife need to escape into a relationship with another man? What were her reasons?

The standard bullshit. Unmet needs, wanting an escape after motherhood / job / life dragging her down. We will be discussing in detail the fact that I have been made a scapegoat in our MC (I had my individual session with her and I am very very impressed - my W and I are both confident that we are turning this ship around)

@Potentialforevil:

Thanks for your post, really appreciate it.

does show you much more respect, even during the affair, then most waywards do

This is actually a good point. I know it is comparing having horse shit or dog shit thrown in your face, but if you have to choose one, then the horse shit isn't quite as gross....

posts: 175   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2023   ·   location: UK
id 8807032
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InkHulk ( member #80400) posted at 4:59 PM on Friday, September 8th, 2023

In the words of Andy Dufresne, I find this whole situation decidedly inconvenient

Absolutely love this one, Ozzy. Glad to hear some positive updates.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 2177   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8807038
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Abalone123 ( member #82896) posted at 6:25 PM on Friday, September 8th, 2023

she maintains that nothing physical would have happened without my "agreement"

I rest my case.

posts: 284   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2023
id 8807045
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 Ozzy1788 (original poster member #83108) posted at 6:53 PM on Friday, September 8th, 2023

I rest my case.

Which case is that?

posts: 175   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2023   ·   location: UK
id 8807049
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SI Staff ( Moderator #10) posted at 7:51 PM on Friday, September 8th, 2023

Hellfire:

You have a p.m.

posts: 10034   ·   registered: May. 30th, 2002
id 8807054
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Dennylast ( member #78522) posted at 11:39 PM on Friday, September 8th, 2023

I withdraw my comment about you and fear. It appears you have taken your power back. Keep up the good work.

posts: 150   ·   registered: Mar. 17th, 2021
id 8807085
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bob7777 ( member #79867) posted at 11:13 AM on Saturday, September 9th, 2023

Ozzy,

As for the stuff about lying to him, she 100% lied to him about loads of stuff. Honesty with me (mostly), pure lies with him. That is part of what has helped her start to escape from the fog. She can see (more than before) how he isn't special, that their whole relationship is based on lies and bullshit.

you painted, and I guess you really believe it, your wife as this honest person, but you said it yourself, she's not. An honest person doesn't lie regardless the person they are talking to. Okay, she's lying to everybody else but you are the only one who she's honest with? Come on, don't picture WS and you vs the world, you know it's not that way. In your wife's case it doesn't make any sense, what you should know that she's extremely selective who's she's giving truth. I can't remember why she chose to lie to AP from the get-go, did you ever elaborate on that? So you both had a time of estrangement, she hits up her old ex, furthermore she's totally honest with you about what she wants to do and how she feels, but with her potentially AP she's lieing from the get-go? Why? Why being an open and honest person but then choosing to be a deceiver with another person? What's her goal there? She could have just told him, "hey I'm having a tough time, my husband and I opened up our relationship so I can explore myself, are you in?" But no, she totally lied, for what reason, it doesn't make any sense?!

I know you want a certain outcome, you made it clear from the start and I don't mind. But you should be aware of what you're signing up for, if you want this and you're willing to take a leap of faith then don't do with the kind of ignorance which brought you here.

[This message edited by bob7777 at 11:17 AM, Saturday, September 9th]

posts: 106   ·   registered: Feb. 1st, 2022
id 8807114
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Edie ( member #26133) posted at 10:11 PM on Monday, September 18th, 2023

Ozzy,

I am very happy to read of developments and the deepening and maturing of your relationship and your, along with your WW’s, new emerging understanding of each other.

I am not in the least bit interested in entering into any debate with anybody on the subject of OBS telling and won’t be. But I have been dismayed with the outrage expressed on the matter and the anger, brow beating and moral approbation directed at you that has ensued. For me, and from my research on the matter, the world is divided as neatly between OBS tellers and the ones keeping silence as it is divided on other ethical questions, none of which I can cite here. We have to respect each other’s ethical deliberations and I know that yours were indeed rooted in ethics and that it became a deep moral dilemma for you and provoking your WW’s ire was only briefly and initially a partial factor in your deliberations. I myself have considerable qualms regarding the advice, sometimes dogma, to tell OBS so as to ‘get one’s marriage out of infidelity’ primarily, with seemingly only, if any, secondary consideration given to the empowerment such telling might give to the OBS. It is playing god either way, telling or not telling. I am very persuaded by the people who have said they wished they had been told but am equally so by people who did not wish to know that their marriage had been briefly visited by infidelity. I know information is power also …and radical honesty is a key tenet in my personal philosophy. And yet, telling OBS cannot a morally absolute matter. How can it possibly be when it is cited as a primary pragmatic way of saving one’s marriage, the OBS being but an instrument and secondary consideration. It is cited also as SI policy, and yet there may be some here who also see it within a morally relative spectrum. I hope we can keep as broad a church here on SI as possible with deep respect and tolerance of difference and diversity. It cannot be ruled by a small cabal of opinion as that will keep others quiet, afraid to speak out, not getting the support they desperately need. I do not agree with, to quote one respondent, ‘holding anyone’s feet to the fire’. There are more Socratic, dialectical and interesting ways of possibly arriving at some truths that matter for the individual involved, ways that might even yield consensus and resolution. You have been unfairly treated and have responded fairly. I am thankful for those, mainly HF, big enough to have rescinded and apologised.

Getting off my soapbox now. 😊

posts: 6646   ·   registered: Nov. 9th, 2009   ·   location: Europe
id 8808386
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FunHouseMirror ( member #80992) posted at 10:56 PM on Monday, September 18th, 2023

Edie it seems to me that most had dropped the tell/don't tell debate in this thread. No need to bring it up if it isn't an issue now. (Just my opinion.)

posts: 248   ·   registered: Sep. 21st, 2022
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Edie ( member #26133) posted at 11:04 PM on Monday, September 18th, 2023

You’re right. I’m behind the times, and my rant is misjudged.

posts: 6646   ·   registered: Nov. 9th, 2009   ·   location: Europe
id 8808388
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 Ozzy1788 (original poster member #83108) posted at 11:47 AM on Tuesday, September 19th, 2023

@Edie,

Good to hear from you! A little late, agreed, but not too late in my opinion.

Not much to add at my end at the moment, feel like there is still a steady upswing. Not counting my chickens yet but I think the almost separation was a real game changer.

posts: 175   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2023   ·   location: UK
id 8808430
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Dennylast ( member #78522) posted at 2:37 PM on Tuesday, September 19th, 2023

Ozzie, good to hear things continue to improve. I do believe that is an indicator that you are doing things right. I don’t have much to say just wanted to add my support.

posts: 150   ·   registered: Mar. 17th, 2021
id 8808444
Topic is Sleeping.
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