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Betrayed Womenz Thread - Part 4

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EllieKMAS posted 1/28/2021 12:33 PM

But is it really a redemption story if the person or people still suffer because of their actions? This is the part I struggle with.
Are you still dealing with an unremorseful cheater? Are you still suffering? If so, then I can completely see why you feel that way. And if that's the case, then no, there isn't redemption there.

Now on the other hand - if the cheater IS making real attempts to fix things and the BS is still spinning their wheels in the hurt... I mean... yes absolutely that hurt was caused by the WS, but the BS has to work on their own healing too. It isn't fair at all, but at some point the BS has to captain their own ship there. Not trying to say 'that's on you', but the shitty part is that a lot of that BS healing work is ultimately on you (the BS).

Have you really given thought to what YOU need from your WS or in your M? And more importantly, is your WS meeting those needs or at least trying to?

EllieKMAS posted 1/28/2021 12:39 PM

I just believe there are basic lines of right and wrong. There is no gray in this.
I agree with this to a certain extent for sure.

For me though, this is where my thought comes from that no one is perfect. All humans have crap and baggage. All humans have caused hurt, whether intentionally or unintentionally. Ultimately it is about how you deal with your imperfections that matters - ie, do you apologize or do you blame? Do you acknowledge your shortcomings and try to address them, or do you just go on as if you were without fault? People who can have humility about themselves and their shortcomings are the kind of people I want in my life. Those who believe they are perfect (like my dad and my xwh) are not people I choose to keep around.

Learning to live in the grey has been a lifelong process for me and probably always will be. It isn't easy to be comfortable in the grey, but I know the more I have been able to see shades of grey the more peaceful my life has gotten.

skeetermooch posted 1/28/2021 15:32 PM

Full disclosure - I cheated, an exit affair in my first marriage in my twenties. I've got plenty of excuses but I'll spare you. I do believe that certain kinds of cheaters - one offs and exit affair-ers are a different breed than serial cheaters, SAs and long-term affair people. I was very young and like a lot of young people I was incredibly selfish and my thinking was fucked up. If I were still that person today I'd rightly be labeled disordered af. I felt enormous guilt for decades and I used that guilt immediately to make myself a better person. I made all the amends I could make and vowed to never ever do that to another human again. He never knew I did it but it was still a shitty, shitty thing to do. He did not deserve it at all - there's no justification. All I could do is tell you how my thinking was fucked, not why it was the right choice, because it wasn't and never could be.

So, there are some WSs on here who I think are valuable if for no other reason than to try to talk sense into the WSs whose heads are still up their asses. As to value to me, there's not a ton now. When I was still asking "why," it was maybe helpful at times to gain insight into the thinking of a wayward - maybe not. If someone bashes you over the head, does it really matter why? But most of the times when I read their posts I hear a lot of poor me, sex became boring, she was too busy with the kids, wah, wah my diaper was wet and she didn't change it quickly enough. I just can't with that crap. What did they think marriage with a couple of jobs and a kid or four was going to be - spring break? I hate these people.

[This message edited by skeetermooch at 3:33 PM, January 28th (Thursday)]

skeetermooch posted 1/28/2021 15:38 PM

People can redeem themselves of course - my mother, like Ellie's made genuine amends for being quite abusive to me as a child - I forgave her. She was my mother and she changed enormously and she was dying and it was healing for me. My father on the other hand thought he was entitled to a relationship with zero amends so he got cut off for life.

I think the problem with cheaters is that the thinking and defects required to cheat in the first place make genuine amends and redemption incredibly unlikely. Even when they're trying they're still so selfish and clueless and entitled. It's possible but it's a road littered with more pain, insults and missteps. And on this site, many are in early recovery, when the blame game is still their thing.

[This message edited by skeetermooch at 3:39 PM, January 28th (Thursday)]

LadyG posted 1/28/2021 17:26 PM

Hi fellow Betrayed Womenz,

The topics this week have gotten pretty heavy and thereís so much more I could add.

Please indulge me and look up this young woman, Grace Tame, Australian of the Year 2021. Yes we had that day on January 26th again.

Grace Tame, I would love you to all have a look at her acceptance speech.

Itís the type of public speech that I wish I was brave enough to make.

To all the cheaters, rapists, abusers, pedophiles, you have nowhere to hide. Everywhere you go a spot light will appear above you.

As for redemption? How does one of the above redeem themselves? I donít believe they ever can. They have no place in society yet they are given one.

Grace Tame, remember her name!

Hedwig posted 1/29/2021 02:37 AM

@gmc94: wanted to send you a PM to ask if you got the job but your PM box is full!

Did you get the job?

I will catch up on the other messages in this thread soon, sorry

20yrsagoBS posted 1/29/2021 09:41 AM

Tell us gmc!!!

Hedwig posted 1/30/2021 09:49 AM

@LadyG: I saw Grace's acceptance speech on social media, that was so incredibly moving. My heart aches for you and all women who have been through something similar. Sending you love.

I'd like to add my two cents on (F)WS sharing their stories. For me it has accelerated my healing, because I got as close to answers as I will ever get and I learned what to look out for in any future partner.

Understanding the illogical and selfish mind and flawed character of a wayward, helped me put some nagging thoughts and feelings to rest. Knowing what contributes to someone cheating (selfishness, low self-esteem, conflict avoidance, people pleasing, entitledness, wanting someone else to make you happy instead of being responsible for your own happiness) does not in any way or form excuse the cheating. It made me aware of personality traits I did not consider 'red flags' or 'flaws' before. WS sharing their views on relationships pre-R, made me realize what unhealthy views on relationships look like. It has also helped me improve my view on relationships.

Lastly, I think believing a WS is truly irredeemable, is detrimental to your own healing if you are still together with one. What they did is bad, 100% and they continue to be bad people as long as they're actively cheating/not working on healing and anything else their BS needs from them. But if our bad actions make us bad people, don't our good actions make us good people? I do believe there is a 'debt' to be paid before the good can outweigh the bad.

I guess believing bad people are inherently bad and there is no redemption possible is a very depressing outlook to me. Not necessarily because I worry about their soul or anything (I honestly couldn't give a fuck) but because I would like to believe the damage they cause others CAN end.

UnstuffedGiraffe posted 1/30/2021 10:37 AM

I think believing a WS is truly irredeemable, is detrimental to your own healing if you are still together with one.

I totally agree.

I do believe there is a 'debt' to be paid before the good can outweigh the bad.

I told my husband I wanted the time, attention, affection and sex he gave away back at an astronomically high interest rate.

[This message edited by UnstuffedGiraffe at 10:38 AM, January 30th (Saturday)]

gmc94 posted 1/30/2021 15:30 PM

^^^^^ Well said Unstuffed.

And I'm prolly more in line with Skeeter, etc on the redemption of WS. Sometimes I do feel that reading the 'favorite' WS can hurt more than help, in that there has always been a part of me that gets angry/frustrated/hurt that my WH can't seem to get himself on the track to redemption.

Which brings me to.....


I start on 2/8, and will have to be in the office for all of the newbie stuff. After that I will be shadowing others remotely for at least a month, before I'm left to do my own thang. Expect that 95%+ will be working remotely until summer (at a minimum). I'm super super excited, word in my profession is starting to get around, so I'm getting calls and texts of congrats and just general "you deserve this" kind of thing. Which has been very positive (I think I needed some external validation more than I realized).

So, it's really (no literally) the first piece of truly "good" news for me in 3 years.

Of course, about 30 min after I got off the phone, I wished I would have said I'd start on 2/1, but that seemed too soon and one more week wasn't that big of a deal. It will be the first time in 25+ years where I'll be financially self sufficient. Such a painful lesson to give up one's financial independence to a "partner" who turned out to be a liar.

So, I now feel a bit sad as I contemplate what next steps will be WRT my M. I think WH is starting to freak out a bit. Not sure it will matter to me/the M, but I really do hope that he can dig into fixing his broken, rather than whatever the F he's been doing for the past 3 years. We had a bit of a spat last week, followed by my saying the next AM that I just don't think he WANTS to change, that it feels like what he wants is to go back to our old M, and that is just not gonna happen. It kind of sucked bc on Tues we saw something on TV where one character kissed another, and then immediately realized he had to tell his live-in GF - which he ultimately did. Later, WH was clearly upset (head in hands, etc) and when I asked what was wrong he said "I'm just thinking" (and in his mind, THAT is communicating and being vulnerable... SMH). The next day, on his own volition, he explained what had been going on. So, that's progress - right?

We shall see what the future holds. For today, I got a JOB!!!

20yrsagoBS posted 1/30/2021 16:01 PM

Congratulations gmc94!!!!!

skeetermooch posted 1/30/2021 18:09 PM

Big congrats GMC!!!

UnstuffedGiraffe posted 1/30/2021 20:07 PM

Congratulations GMC!

If I have a favorite wayward itís mine, even after all the shit he dumped on me I do still like him. There are some here that have obviously done more work on themselves than mine but not favorites.

[This message edited by UnstuffedGiraffe at 1:38 AM, January 31st (Sunday)]

Hedwig posted 1/31/2021 02:27 AM

@gmc94: YESS! Congratulations! Here's to you and your financial independence. *raises cup of coffee* I'm so happy for you!

Tallgirl posted 1/31/2021 06:44 AM

Congrats gmc!!!!

I am truly happy for you. You very much deserve some positivity, and clearly you were the best person for the job.

Isnít it nice to be recognized and wanted for your capabilities !

Be proud of yourself.

Throwaway999 posted 1/31/2021 09:39 AM

Congrats gmc!! You rock! Wishing you all the best!

Throwaway999 posted 2/1/2021 13:17 PM

Hey all...this is likely a silly question but how do you know if you need IC? For the most part I feel I am healing. I am loads better since I donít have any contact with WH...for obvious reasons. I am still angry.

My true last DDay was after he died. When I found out about that he was cheating more than he ever admitted to and lied to me until he died. So how do you know if you have more issues to work out? I do know I donít grieve for him at all...should I be? Who knows what a normal person would feel in my situation...maybe I should miss him? But I donít. I am not glad he died...my kids hurt.

I know I have value and didnít deserve what he did. I know it wasnít my fault at all. Could I have done anything to prevent it...I donít believe so. It was all him. I knew nothing about what he was feeling. I had no idea he was unhappy enough to cheat.

I have reached out to a new IC...I could do a 30 minute talk with her...but how do you know if you need IC?

EllieKMAS posted 2/1/2021 14:09 PM

how do you know if you need IC?
Honestly? If you're asking this, you could probably use IC. I know enough about your story that you have a lot to unpack, and IC could definitely help you to do it.

UnstuffedGiraffe posted 2/1/2021 15:45 PM

My first IC only did short term counseling and told me I would need it when we started MC again, she was right. When I was in almost constant trigger mode I started shopping for a new IC the date alone set me off for 3 months. I really knew I needed help when I was found myself blaming my MIL for ruining my day because she needed to go to the ER.

Throwaway999 posted 2/1/2021 16:43 PM

UnstuffedGiraffe & Ellie - lol you are likely right. I just second guess it as I have tried it before and got nothing out of it.

However...donít get me started about my MIL...I most definitely have anger towards her. I know she is grieving but she has been such a huge disappointment. Both when my WH was dying and afterwards.

It was my WH birthday last Friday...the first one for my kids since he passed...not one of his family reached out to them to acknowledge it might be a tough day for them and ask how they were doing. Yet I know my MIL and his brother all talked about his birthday amongst themselves...but no one thought to check on my kids. I mean...how hard is it to shoot one text...just to say hey thinking about you and I know today might be hard. Itís fine to let me go from their family...but my kids will always be their family.

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