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Go gray rock immediately. Every time you try to have a conversation expressing anger or pain he lets you know exactly how he feels. He doesn’t care. Please, please stop talking to him. He knows your statements are really begging him to not hurt you. He doesn’t care. He is sneering at you and enjoying the pain he is inflicting.
It is time to let go of any hope. Let him take that toxic mess he tells himself is wonderful and get yourself out of infidelity. Asap.

Sweetheart, he was texting her all the time,when he was with you and the kids,before you knew. The difference is,now you know.

He is a horrible father. That won't change. Expecting it to change,hoping it will change,is a losing battle.

OW is lying. Just as your WH is lying. Cheaters lie.

Quit telling people it wasn't physical. You have no proof of that,other than a liar's word. He is laughing that he has you thinking that. Married men don't behave as he has,when you know he's been to her home,without it being physical.

Stop allowing visitation in your home. That needs to be your safe place. He can take the kids to wherever he is staying.

You need to NC him,except for kids and finances. He is enjoying your pain. It feeds his ego. Stop sharing it with him.

I swear,if anyone ever needed punched in the throat it's him. I know,I know..violence isn't the answer..whatever.

Ellie - I am a lawyer. I am not a divorce lawyer, and I won't give you "legal" advice, but I am more than happy to answer any questions you may have about the divorce process and give you my personal opinion about how you need to proceed.

Oh, I also am a former victim - similar to you - of False R - multiple times. I think you likely know my story as your name seems familiar to me so you may have been posting back when I was initially? I can give you my personal advice about how to try to negotiate how you are feeling now and looking forward. I say former victim because after 2+ years of false R, lies, manipulation, almost losing my job and my career, and feeling ever so defeated, I am fine now. Actually better than fine - I am stronger and more importantly, happy with how I now deal with life and with people generally.

Some of that comes with time - some of it comes with your own decision to change YOURSELF.

That being said, please feel free to PM me. I don't know what state you are in but based on your WS's behavior I am going to echo the advice of many regarding obtaining counsel...at least initially...because you have kids. If you have financial assets then my advice to obtain counsel multiplies - but again, feel free to PM me and pick my brain. Depending on where you are I may even have someone I can refer you to.

I hope that you find peace and the courage to change. Peace comes from within my friend (and I hated hearing stuff like this when I was fresh on the heels of the one of the false R discoveries, but it is indeed, true).

I now see - we registered for this site within 2 days of each other. So I'm sure you know my story, up until about 2 years ago...

In rereading your posts here most of the things you are talking about - the feelings - are totally normal.

Why doesn't he fight for you? Tough answer: because he doesn't want to. My WS has since told me how he also did not want to - but he pretended like he did. Be thankful that for some unknown reason, your WS isn't perpetrating another lie to you by pretending. The pretending hurt me and delayed my recovery more than the gut punch of the betrayal. The lies piled on top of more lies, piled on top of my WH's inability to man up enough to even tell me that he did not want to try was horrible. The fact that he changed his mind later and decided he did is irrelevant to the pain that his lying about wanting to try then did to me - because at that time, he did not want to. He has admitted it to me - but he held on because of a million reasons related to his own ego, and not wanting to "hurt me" anymore - but those reasons were bullshit. Did he WANT to hurt me - likely not in some malicious "I hate you" kind of way - but he was going to hurt me no matter what - so he chose the cowards path so he did not have to deal with that side of the equation. Instead he opened himself up to provide half answers and half truths - I got the full gory details of the affair but I did NOT get what was going on in his head. Not until later. Not until it was too late. Instead, you aren't going to get much of anything from him - but his silence is a kindness from the universe to you - you don't have to decipher truth from lies because in the end, it doesn't matter.

So try to re-frame it this way: Thank your lucky stars that he has finally decided to stop lying to you about what matters in YOUR WORLD - that he does not want to try so you are released. You don't have to sit back and wonder...yet again, what he is doing and whether he is lying to you. The kindness here is that he does not want to manipulate you into giving him any more of your time. Hallelujah. Seriously. The one thing that you cannot get back is time - the fact that he does not want to continue the heist of your life is the best news ever in the long run for YOU. Does it matter if he is telling you the truth about why? Not to your reality - not to your future. He could be fucking everyone in town, or he could be utterly alone and trying to make out like he is having a great time to save face. But what does that matter to you going forward? To your world without him? Nothing. Nothing at all.

I also wanted to comment on your parents divorcing - not all experiences are alike when it comes to that. My parents divorced - best thing they could have done for us. I can't imagine the hell we would have gone through as kids had they stayed together. Your kids will be okay, and unfortunately, this isn't the last tough thing life is going to throw at them.

Well I read all of your encouraging words too late. We had a blow up this morning. He told me he didnt want to fight for me or our marriage because I wasnt worth it that our marriage wasnt worth it. He despises me for not having a job and is tired of me blaming losing my 3 jobs to covid (which I did). He Saw me looking for jobs every week. Nothing was out there that paid enough to cover childcare for 3 kids. And we agreed we didnt want the baby in daycare with covid as it was bc he had a weaker immune system due to a medical issue. But how quickly they forgot of how much we bust our asses for our family when it suits them.
OW texted him last night after my friend ran into her that I was "basically stalking her by sending her up there". I told him I dont send people to do my biding. I only asked her about the woman bc they were friends. I didnt tell her to do anything. She lives in the neighborhood, right down from our old house. her daughter was having surgery today and she ran there to get some stuff and she happened to be working. So then he tells me I need to be careful with what Im saying and doing, that I dont know how people will react to being "bombarded". That she didnt like being called a homewrecker. Well, she is. And Im sorry if she doesn't like it but when she was engaging with a married man inappropriately that what she is. My husband was clearly all too excited to tell her that I called her that in one of our "discussions". I really have no intentions of doing anything about her. I wasnt married to her. She violated girl code yea but girls like that dont give a shit anyways. I guess that's what makes dealing with the OW/OM in these scenarios hard. They are cheating just the same. Unless they really have no idea. But she did. Part of me wants to reach out to her baby daddy/boyfriend to see if he's aware but he crosses me as the guy that doesn't give a shit bc he's just using her anyways.
Im sick. I want to block him. I dont even want him to come and see the kids. But of course when I talked about him needing to sort this stuff out with my mom again, he said he didnt need to. And I told him this is her house. So he spins it like he always does, that now I am going to see him from the kids.
Im terrible at this game. Im not a bad person. I dont say mean things just to be mean. I dont know how to handle this.

Im terrible at this game. Im not a bad person. I dont say mean things just to be mean. I dont know how to handle this.

Answer: Stop playing.

Expanded upon answer: You DO know how to handle this, but you are not being honest with yourself - you don't want to stop playing, because there is some little part of you that thinks if you play the game "right" you can somehow still "win." You are hoping for an outcome that at this stage is about as likely to happen as it is for me to become the Queen of England.

I say this because I did the same thing. I felt the same way but didn't want to admit it to myself. You can't control the outcome - you can only control your part in it. Allow yourself to GIVE UP. STOP CARING ABOUT THE AP. STOP - NOW. What would happen if the AP were to be abducted by aliens? Would it make your H a better person - would all of a sudden a big right of light surround you and he would be the man of your dreams?

Who cares what his reasons are for not wanting to fight for you (and why do you believe them anyway)? So he has conveniently forgotten you were looking for work? So it's an excuse - another - he wants to blame you for his reasoning. Who cares? He doesn't seem the type to say "I don't want this to work because I'm a selfish ass." And, people DO stop loving their partners - even when they aren't having affairs - people divorce and move in a different direction - there are 100000s of reasons - but the only thing that matters is that HE WANTS OUT. Take his desire to end it as a blessing - it was for me - when WH finally admitted he did not want to fight for us, he did me a massive favor. MASSIVE. You are being offered the same gift - take it and RUN.

I also filed for D eventually, and then got the outcome I had hoped for (that he actually made some major changes because he wanted to for him) - but weirdly by then, I didn't want the same outcome for my-his relationship anymore. You need to get to a point where you can have your own feelings. You're not there. Find a way somehow.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 5:41 PM, Tuesday, April 19th]

I'm so sorry you're going through this. Again.

I'm going to reiterate what everyone else has been saying, which is to STOP handing him all the power by continually letting him see how devastated you are. This doesn't mean that your feelings are wrong or misplaced - everyone here has been where you are, emotionally - but talking to him about them as if he gives a rat's ass (pardon my French) is only going to make you feel worse.

I promise you I'm not trying to sound harsh, I just hate to see people in pain so I'm being blunt. STOP telling him you're not eating and sleeping. STOP insisting he try and get along with your mother. STOP telling him you want him to fight for you. STOP telling him how angry or sad you are. He DOES NOT care. Do you deserve this treatment? Hell no. But you seem to keep trying to 'break through' to the person he is 'inside' by trying to guilt him and insisting that he SHOULD care. Honey, this IS who he is on the 'inside'. It's hard to accept but you'll eventually have to if you're going to come to a better place (and I know, it takes time).

I would also gently inform your mutual friends that you aren't interested in what OW thinks or says - she doesn't matter. She really doesn't. For all her 'pinky promises' (is she twelve?), she doesn't care either - except that it's also an ego boost for HER to think you're obsessing over her. Stop giving them both the satisfaction. They deserve each other. I promise this will get better once you REALLY start to detach. And keep posting - this place is an excellent support system.

One last thing I forgot to ask (and I'm sorry if I missed these details earlier in the thread) - you say you're all living in your mother's house?

Why is he still there? If he's so freaking detached and uncaring of anyone living there, why isn't he gone already? If he's dead-set on divorce and ending the marriage, then why can't you (or your mother) ask him to GTFO and find somewhere else to live so you can start with the business of turning the page? Is it because he refuses to go, or is it because you haven't pulled the trigger and asked him to leave yet?

Hi Elle,

I'm sorry you're hurting and that he can't muster up the decency to pretend that your hurt doesn't bother him. He's a jerk - he's been a jerk. He's not going to stop being a jerk - ever. I'm happy that you have resolved to divorce and get him out of your life. I know it wont be easy, but its so so necessary. I hope you keep up that momentum. I know you've got a lot on your plate.

He's avoiding/lashing out at anyone that will remind him that he's being an asshole. That's not hard to see. People are uncomfortable with seeing themselves as the bad guy so they twist logic and truth to justify their actions to themselves. He can only view himself as a reasonable good guy if you're a villain - obviously you're not. He's being rude to your mom, because she's no longer under his spell either.

I agree with others that say that you shouldn't take OW at her at her word that nothing happened. Just like your husband, she's a lying liar that lies. She has every reason to lie. She has a bf/baby-daddy that probably wouldn't be too happy about it and it would likely blow up her life too if news got out. Additionally, t would make her look like a bad person in front of friends/publicly (women are judged far more harshly for being a homewrecker - keep in mind there is no male term for that). She has also seen one 'friend' judge her harshly for it. She is likely also keeping his secret if she has loyalty to him.

((Elle))

I guess it is a game..and the problem is I don't like to lose. And I feel like I lost. He chose someone over me. He didn't see all that I've done over the years for him and our family. I lost. I became a statistic and lost.
I know it gives them power. I guess I just can't come to terms with the idea that I was with a total stranger. For at least part of our marriage. I mean....it would be dumb to think that I managed to catch him the only two times he's pulled this shit wouldn't it? Statistically speaking, those are ridiculous odds. I know him leaving is a gift, but one would hope after 16 years and 4 kids he would leave gracefully. My best friend who's really the only one who knows it all is in shock. Her and her husband have been our friends for well over a decade and she and I have been friends since we were 5. She's so confused by him and his behavior. She said "if I didn't know you and the situation I'd be asking you who you were banging to piss him off so much". She doesn't want him around their kids because of how he's been acting with all this.
I'm going to try to grayrock and do all the things. I need to. I about hyperventilated after our argument this morning. I need to face reality that he doesn't care. And that's ok because I don't have to deal with his verbally abusive gaslighting anymore. That's OW problem now.

I see you've posted in the divorce forum.

I'm so proud of you.

Look..I know,over the years, it's probably seemed as if I was hard on you. I don't think there's ever been one of you threads,in which I didn't bring up that damn safe word. It wasn't because I was trying to be hard on you. It was because I wanted to remind you that he's a POS. No matter what mask he may have been wearing at the time,underneath he was,and has always been,and always will be, a POS.

I have never supported your marriage. Or your "reconciliation." Because you are a treasure, and he didn't deserve you. And because it was obvious, to those of us not in love with him,that he wasn't invested in you,or the marriage. Or the kids,for that matter. So,no,I couldn't support that. But, I have always supported YOU. Always.

I know that you don't want to divorce. You want him to be remorseful, and make promises. The thing is, he's not. He never was. And any promises he'd make would simply be lip service. I think you've come to understand that. And you are seeking help in the divorce process. It's a huge step for you. And so courageous. I'm so proud of you,for taking these steps to protect yourself, your kids, and for finally getting out of this toxic situation. I truly believe you are going to thrive,once he is no longer in your daily life. I believe you are going to be happy..and relieved. And your kids will see that,and they will be happier because of it.

[This message edited by HellFire at 6:32 PM, Tuesday, April 19th]

Warning - I use a lot of foul language when I talk about As and WSs and APs.

Listen, you already know this but you need a reminder. You didn't do anything wrong and you aren't a bad person. Waywards have to get their kicks, and their thoughts rewire their brains to create an alternate reality in which they are fighting for their happiness and freedom from a horrible spouse.

All BSs have been that "horrible" spouse, and none of us could recognize ourselves when our WSs listed what we did wrong to make them have to cheat. To them, the garbage person willing to engage in an A with a married person is a hero, a truly nice person, and the only person who understands them. Yeah, right. We have all heard about this unicorn world that does not resemble reality at. all.

He's got to reinforce that idea to himself by telling you how awful you are and how bad the marriage was. Stop listening. Stop repeating it. He writing a movie script where he is the protagonist. Don't let this sack of shit rewire your brain. Don't speak to him nor listen. Walk away. You have to protect your mind. These affair-seeking people love drama and mind games. You don't have to play with him. Cultivate peace.

The greatest insult to someone who needs this much attention and drama, is to withhold attention and drama. Read about Grey Rock. Read about 180 again. Stop defending yourself against crap he says. My WS tried that shit with me, DARVO-type garbage, when I exposed one of his As to the AP's spouse. I started saying, "That's right, bitch," instead of defending myself once I realized the purpose of his accusations about my character was to put me on the defensive so we were not talking about his actions and character. "You're stalking my AP!" "That's right, bitch." (walk away)

Walk away and breathe, think positive things and let his voice be a little mosquito buzzing somewhere out there until you can get away or he leaves.

Train your brain to stop caring whether he will regret his actions someday. Focus on the fact that YOU know these are times with your children that will never come again. Cherish that, and know your children know who is the sane, present parent. Who cares what WSs and APs think or feel? We already know their worlds are not real.

Try to re-frame this:

I guess it is a game..and the problem is I don't like to lose. And I feel like I lost. He chose someone over me. He didn't see all that I've done over the years for him and our family. I lost. I became a statistic and lost.

(And I will admit - you sound JUST LIKE I DID.) I too did not want to "lose". But ask yourself this: what are you "winning" by keeping him? Really - WHAT? ARE? YOU? WINNING?

If by some magic forces beyond recognition, he decided to stay - he decided to fight for you - at best you are winning someone who, at some point, for a long period, treated you like a punching bag. He didn't treat you like garbage - use you and throw you away - you were a TOOL for him to take out his anger/fear/loathing/whatever. You served a purpose - for HIM - and your feelings and needs and wants did not matter.

That is what you would be winning - someone who, at best, magically changes into the person you want - but who in the process of this catharsis (that hasn't happened) treated you like a punching bag for 6+ years!!!!!

The only way you win is to make today the day that you stop being a punching bag for him and move forward.

Have you ever had anyone you know and respect - someone who loves and cares about your well being - call you out for staying? Ask you "what are you doing putting up with this?" They don't think staying is winning - so are they wrong for thinking that, or are you? I had someone ask me a similar question once - and I came back to it over and over again: what am I winning?

At best you are winning retired punching bag status - this has gone on waaaaay too long for him to make amends overnight. At worst, you are just toughening up for another round. You have given him enough chances to win - the loser by your ending this will be him - the winner will be you. (and you are wrong about one thing - he DID see all you did for him and your family - and his version of thanking you was to take another swing)

Maybe with time - he will change (but that too will not happen overnight). Fine. If he does, your decision to let him be a part of your life will be yours at that time - but in the meantime stop wasting your own life - you only get one as far as I know. Maybe it will never happen. Maybe it will and you won't want him. But what you do know is that you don't want him now - you KNOW it. You don't want this life with him - it sucks. Winning is releasing yourself from it. It is. Trust me.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 6:59 PM, Tuesday, April 19th]

My best friend who's really the only one who knows it all is in shock. Her and her husband have been our friends for well over a decade and she and I have been friends since we were 5. She's so confused by him and his behavior. She said "if I didn't know you and the situation I'd be asking you who you were banging to piss him off so much".

He wore that mask well. You'll be surprised at how good certain people are at pretending. He just happened to find the person who validated taking that mask off, revealing the true ugly face underneath.

Hellfire, its funny you mention being so "hard on me". I remember thinking a long time ago, "woah this person is really intense" but in a totally good way. Like, dont hold shit back, tell it to me straight way. because lets be honest. IRL there are very few people, if any, who know all of the REAL dirt with our marriages. No one knows about the verbal abuse Ive started mentioning it now, but now its just a blip on the radar and Im sure its coming off more as an "excuse" than anything since im mentioning it now. No one really knows about that night where I ended up hitting him because he was out of his mind. I hid all of that. I downplayed it, I even made it sound like SD was overreacting with the way she was telling people. I regret that every day. But no one else knows that stuff. So having someone that knows all that and can still give it to me straight is a gift. So dont ver think that I didnt understand where you were coming from. I know it was because you supported me but not my marriage. You knew that this is where it would end up eventually.
I know Im not winning anything. Essentially by staying I am losing. Im not staying though. Any scrap of trust I had coming back is shredded to a zillion pieces. And I told him that. I finally was comfortable letting him go an do (he sees that asme being controlling) and as soon as he's going and doing, I catch him doing this. And ive been trying to take a step back and really hear what he is saying and not just react. The things He likes to use against me, "controlling, jealous" are problems that he created by cheating the first time. I think all women (and men) have a bit of controlling and jealousy in them when it comes to their significant other. They are ours, and we want to protect them and keep them. Thats not bad. but when he says controlling and jealous about me, he makes it seem like I kept him locked in a tower. But it was all stuff we had discussed. "Im not comfortable with you having female friends, for obvious reasons" and even after the fact he has had female friends, but they were out in the open. They were women he worked with that I knew about and had spoken to. They didnt get my spidey senses going (which ive now learned to trust more than a persons promise). And I wouldn't really even call them friends. "Im not comfortable with you going there with those people" because hanging out with a bunch of single guys at the bar that you would causally run into the first OW at was extremely triggering. "im not comfortable with you staying out that late" because let's be honest, a married man doesn't need to be out with anyone at 3am. And I know it took a while for me to come around, but we also had a ton of shit happen after the first A to really stop any progress I was making with my trust. We had a baby and he passed away, we had another baby that was preceded with a 3m hospital stay for me. Trusting my husband was the furthest thing from my mind when it came to the possibility of him cheating. So when we did circle back around to WHs desire to go out, even though it had been years since the first A, it only felt like 6 months.
Beachateaux We were all living in my moms house. He has since moved out. He comes in the morning to pick the kids up for school and he comes in the evenings after work to see them for a few hours. Im happy to have him out. But sometimes the coming and going irritates me.
Yesterday after everything that happened, I decided I was going to be the bigger person. We took the kids out to dinner because I didnt want to deal with the awkwardness between he and my mom. He was making it weird at first and then I just said fuck it and started talking to him like we would have before, He had a coworker whos SD passed away. I asked how he was doing. I know he had driver issues and employee issues and so I asked about them. We talked. And it was so nice For a split second I didnt hate him. Thats not to say everything is peachy keen but it was nice to see what things could be like for us. And that's all I want. I want to be able to do things as a family still. He wasnt able to do that with his ex wife. They both hated each other and she was always with a guy that was too controlling to let her do anything anyways.
He reached out to my mom in regards to their tension. He said that "after all that she said I can come to the house and see the kids whenever I want". Making it seem like I overreacted, Then I saw what they actually texted. My mom said she would leave when he came over so he could see the kids whenever he wanted, That she wasnt ready to talk to him yet because she was too disappointed. Huge difference. I dont know why he spins shit when he knows Ill be able to cross check his answers.

Sweetheart, don’t forget there are lots of things at play here that you can win. Keeping a man isn’t winning. Keeping your dignity, keeping your sanity, keeping your self-respect, these are all goals and it sounds to me like you’re winning. Don’t let anyone tell you that there’s only one game here and that is "keep your man." If that really is a game, go ahead and lose. But I think there are far more important games at play here and you’re winning all of them.

OP - I read your posts and your ws is no prize. The reason he won’t fight for your marriage is because he gets his ego fed by having women fight for HIM. The fact that you aren’t sleeping is proof to him that he is the prize. All he cares about is that he is desired. That’s exactly the game my ex played too.

He also said he didn’t want a divorce. Well sure, who wants a divorce when they can have someone do their laundry, cook, clean and be a good wife and still have a girlfriend on the side. How dare you want to take that away?!?!

I’m angry for you. I’m angry that he is so selfish that he will not own anything he does. My ex still tells the kids that I wanted the divorce and he didn’t. SMH

We all really want you to be happy. You deserve so much better. As soon as you can distance yourself and go gray rock, you will find that things get better. I know it sucks that you have to change and do the heavy lifting when he caused it all. But do you really want to stay in this place/feeling? Get to MEH about him and it will bring the world in focus for you.

Lots of hugs your way!

I know. He is no prize. And I need to remember that. Its hard to shake the vision of a long and happy marriage from your mind. He was my best friend. And he turned out to be stranger.
I asked this on the divorce forum but its a little slow over there so Ill ask here.
He moved into his old bosses house. I love the guy. He's great. However the house is not child friendly. Has a big pool with no type of child proofing. And its deep. It has a shallow end but its like 5 ft. The two big kids can swim but it still worries me. And clearly the baby can't swim so it makes me even more nervous. However, he said he doesn't have room for a crib or pack n play. So how does that work with time sharing? He can't keep them at his house. He said he would come here and put the baby down for naps and I assume put the kids in bed? But I would have to leave bc im not going to be made to be a built in baby sitter that is here to do all the heavy lifting with the kids. Dont get me wrong, I lovely kids, but if its his turn to have them, he needs to be responsible for them. I have work and school that I need to get done on the days he has them because I have less time to do it now. So what do this mean. How does this work? Would I be considered having 100% custody?
I found out I was denied for an income based lawyer. Dont know how as seeing how my bills are greater than my "income". But they gave me more resources where I can fill out the paperwork myself and they guide me on what I need to do.

Annnnnnd here come the mind movies. I'm waiting in car rider line to pick up the big kids. Got here early and I'm exhausted so thought, I'll shut my eyes for a few while we wait. And BOOM. All I see is them. I want to scream.
He says it was never physical but finally, sort of admitted to being at her house. He said they played cards. I've literally never known my husband to play cards with the exception of Uno and War with the kids. He said she taught him how to play Rummy. Isn't that an old lady game? WTF. You are playing cards until 3am with a woman at her house. And he waited in a parking lot before going to her house. I don't know why. I assume either bc her boyfriend/baby daddy needed to leave, she wasn't home from work and didn't want the neighbors to see a strange car waiting at her house or maybe the kids were still awake. Regardless. He's been there. And now I can't even close my fucking eyes.
He told our friends that he still loves me. That he wants to make this work, which made me happy so i can hopefully crush his dreams but he damn sure isn't acting like it. I'm so tired. I'm so angry. I'm so sad. I'm so tired of not being the psycho wife. I wish I didn't give a shit. Thank god I have my kids. They are literally the only ones that can drive me insane every day but still keep me from going crazy.

Ignore what he's telling friends. He's lying to them to save face. Meanwhile, he is being horrible to you. He's only telling them he loves you,and wants it to work so that when it doesn't, he can play the victim.