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So until its approved by a court do I just take whatever he will give me? Do I not even mention the alimony yet? Im just not sure how to navigate these next few conversations. I didnt qualify for the pro bono lawyer so my next step is getting the paperwork and filling it out myself and then finding a lawyer to help. this will save me some money in the long run. Its what the pro bono guys sent to me for my next option. So im going to the court house to get the paperwork. I have no money to borrow from anyone. My mom is tapped out, that's why we moved in to begin with. I do have about 4500 saved up but I was hoping that would be my emergency money since I won't have my WH to fall back on. Should I use that for a lawyer?

I say if it can get you some kind of plan or order together, do it. You'll need all the legal advice/help you can get. Don't make any financial decisions without it.

[This message edited by Forks027 at 6:05 AM, Sunday, April 24th]

You should probably use some of that money for a lawyer. You can ask for costs too. Doing this without a lawyer would be hard, and since your kids are young, there are so many things you want to make sure are in there.

I know you want to do holidays together, but realistically that won't last long. If he has someone permanent in his life, or you end up with someone in your life, that won't work out. You need to have this all worked out in your custody agreement.

Holidays
Right of first refusal
Child support and how long
spousal and how long
medical
dental
college
where they go to school
who does pick up and drop off
can one of you move and how far and if that happens who then is responsible for pick up and drop off.
And a lot more.

You don't want anything vague, don't leave anything to chance.

Yes, I recommend putting the emergency money toward an attorney at this critical time. You have a secure place to live, your mother isn't going to evict you, you're all basically healthy, if there were an accident, ERs treat people first and ask for payment later, and if a real emergency somehow came up for the children, your ex is legally bound as the parent to pay for it if you can't. The need for a legal custody and support agreement is your true emergency right now.

You have a baby, which means that this legal agreement will be dictating your financial security, custody and interactions with your ex for almost 20 years. That is huge and it is nothing to try to economize on. Most attorneys will take credit cards, as well. Put some cash down, and the rest of the retainer on a credit card. The most cost-effective way to divorce and arrange custody/child support is to negotiate rather than fight it out in court, but that negotiation must happen through a lawyer, and often happens in the courthouse, right before a scheduled hearing. You absolutely cannot skip the paid lawyer part, sorry. It's well worth it when all is said and done, though.

Do not bring up alimony per se now, no. That's for your lawyer to do. You are not knowledgeable about the law and are emotionally invested in your ex and he knows it, which makes you a very weak negotiator. Don't try to file anything yourself- you could make an error that will cause problems later. Spend the money and get an attorney.

Right now, you should keep pressing your ex for money, just don't use legal terms like "alimony". Tell him (and document this) what is "needed for the children, and to keep the household running", just like has always been needed. The family financial needs didn't disappear when the marriage blew up, so he needs to keep providing what he was before. He'll probably resist paying what he should and try to minimize what you need. Document that, too. Keep pushing for the money you and the kids need, and don't minimize what you need because this feels like an emergency situation. If you have a child getting ballet lessons, for example, don't take her out of ballet lessons to save money. Don't delay buying new shoes for the kids, or putting one in braces, etc. From a legal perspective, you should be pressing for the money you need for the things you've always had, rather than cutting back right now. The money you are asking for now is actually part of the evidence potentially to be presented at court as to how much money is needed. It might seem counterintuitive as it feels like you should cut back in this situation, but the fact is that if you minimize your family's needs and avoid asking for all the needed money now, the court might assume that you don't really need that money, at all. It also signals to your ex that he can pressure you to accept less. Keep documenting full, normal family expenses and keep persistently pressing your ex to pay them. Just don't use legal terms like "alimony", because you're in no position to negotiate that without an attorney.

It sounds like you haven't yet consulted with a regular (not pro-bono) family law attorney. Do so asap. Initial consultations are free. This will give you the best idea of what the process will cost and how to pay, as well as give you the best idea of how to proceed at this point.

[This message edited by morningglory at 12:35 PM, Sunday, April 24th]

Im just not sure how to navigate these next few conversations

Don't have them. Seriously. Stop talking to him.

I agree. Get an attorney,and ask that he pay the attorney fees. He isn't going to be fair,or reasonable. And the more you "play nice", the more self respect you will lose.

File. Get an attorney. And get EVERYFUCKINGTHING you are entitled to.

I agree with Hellfire, get every single thing you are entitled to, stop playing nice with this man. Get a pitbull of an attorney, do those free consultations.

Do this for your children and for you.

Don't talk to him about it, don't negotiate, reason with, plead with him.

So asking him to pay for fees, that would be done by the lawyer. I don't say anything to him about it. I've been researching lawyers today outside of the ones that the fre guys gave me. And everyone gets such mixed reviews. There are a few that are supposed to be fierce and then I see people saying they were a total flip, or they used their entire retainer up before they even got done with the paperwork. Jesus christ. I'm so fucking angry. I don't have time for this. I should have just not said shit, finished school, saved up all my evidence and then dropped sit like a bomb on him. But florida is a no fault state so it doesn't matter.

In other news. I feel like I've become radioactive. My friends that know seem to avoid wanting to talk about it or ask about it. And I get it because it can be toxic I guess but shit. I'm struggling over here. If I didn't have you guys I don't know what I'd do.

That happened to me Elle, they got tired of hearing about it, and just wanted me to do something, leave or not leave but shut the hell up :( That's the good thing about this place, I think most bs understand the obsessive thoughts constantly running through our heads and the need to talk about it again and again, as if this can help us understand how the person we loved turned into this evil alien.

Keep talking here, it will help you a lot.

These are friends, relatives who might be getting the boot from you, and they should.

...I think most bs understand the obsessive thoughts constantly running through our heads and the need to talk about it again and again...

Agreed, and conversely, people who haven't been through it just don't get it. It's not that they're not trying or that they don't want to help us necessarily. They just don't have the right frame of reference. How could they?

Same thing with depression. I used to think I was pretty empathetic, but it wasn't until I experienced it for myself that I really understood it.

I definitely get it. When our son passed away our friends were "there" but never talked about him. At that time i know it was more about not wanting to make me sad. Now they understand that talking about him makes me happy, mostly. But I'm sure it got to a point of being tired of me taking about him early on. I get it. People who don't understand this grief dont know how to approach it. And something like a spouse cheating, its like if you talk about it, you put it into the universe and manifest it.
Yes. The obsessive thoughts. It's overwhelming. I want a friend to kidnap me, sit on the floor and drink wine all night and let me talk about it all I want her to say "Fuck him" when appropriate, tell me I was a bitch when appropriate and just be there. But when we all have kids and husbands, no one wants that kind of drama in their living room.
I'm worried about school this semester. It's a tough class and I'm worried I can't focus. Not for lack of genuinely trying. I have imposter syndrome as it is. And being in a masters program with a 4.0 feels VERY foreign. So having this huge life event on top of it feels like it's reinforcing that self doubt.
I had to reach out to my employer about what was going on. Ibahebt even started yet. I literally do not have the support system right now to work. I sent an email after hours. I'm sure it will be one of the first they read tomorrow morning. I'm hoping they can work with me. The supervisor I have for my hours knows and she was super supportive (and she's actually a WW and it was nice hearing her perspective). I have a voice telling me to take a semester off to regroup, but I'm the kind of girl that likes to rip the bandaid off so i figure I need to suck it up and fucking deal with it. I hope that works out. Right now I'm not sure but I feel like taking a hiatus from school will just give WH more fuel. And all I want to do, more than anything else, is prove home wrong.

It's okay if you've got too much on your plate, Elle. It's also okay if you feel like you need to stay busy. Everyone processes the grief differently. One of the best pieces of advice for processing a trauma is to try Meditation/Mindfulness. Here's the thing though, I suck at it. All I do is find fault with how I'm not doing it right so I get nothing out of it. But... I did discover that I can get a lot of the same brain-calming benefits from adult coloring books. I can sit with a package of colored pencils and some intricate coloring pages and let my mind relax. It's just enough brain activity choosing the placement of colors to keep the mind involved in the task so that the breakneck pace of constant rumination is broken up.

Back in those days, my brain felt like it was overheating like a leaky radiator. I wouldn't have been surprised to find steam coming out of my ears. Of course, with small kids and a study schedule, you've already got quite a bit to do, but if you will try to find some time for yourself, meditating traditionally, or through adult coloring books, or even by using auditory techniques.. it's going to pay off by helping you not feel so fried all the time.

((hugs))

Don't be surprised if you find your coupled friends pulling away from you now that you're getting divorced. It's been my experience that married women want to socialize with other married women and couples, not with single/divorced women. That's partly due to convenience (matched tables at dinners, easy shared topics of conversation), and partly due to fear (if I get too close to someone getting divorced, they might contaminate me).

I have a seriously ill child, and while I certainly don't expect or want his illness to dominate conversations, I've been shocked at how little anyone chooses to even acknowledge it, although they know. My female work acquaintances, who are always sharing about their (happy) private lives, rarely ask about my son. They're too busy talking about everything great going on in their lives, and I do sense a subtle looking down on me for having serious problems in my life (sick child, LTR break-up, etc.)

The just-world hypothesis is a real thing, and many people just can't help but assume that people with problems are themselves to blame for the bad things that happened to them. So they distance themselves from the people with problems.

This is one reason why I choose not to socialize much, particularly at work. I'll stick to my few close, supportive friends, and let the rest focus on their own lives.

Morningglory im so sorry about your child. Its a tremendous weight to carry. Just know I see you. ((HUGS)) Our son is autistic so its not nearly the same, but I do understand what its like to a degree. When we need to make special accommodations for him, or we go do something and he has a meltdown etc. sometimes people (friends and family) think he's just spoiled, I can't explain anymore that its sensory overload. I just remove him from the situation and
shut my mouth.
But I understand if they distance themselves. My WH was over and we tried to discuss a schedule etc. It started well enough but obviously took a turn. He said everyone he told about us was not surprised bc we had been faking it for so long. Which was surprising. Its very likely a lie bc we didnt hang out with ANYONE together outside my friend her husband really. And our neighbors. We dont have a ton of married friends. And those people were surprised and sad when they found out. Its all his single friends that would be saying that. And I found out that a married couple we know, he's been talking to the guy a lot lately. Ive seen his number on our phone records and now I know why. He and his wife, who just finished chemo for breast cancer (she's 36), are getting a divorce. Per my WH, the guy told him she's a pill head and crazy. I was just like....what? She had cancer. I would imagine she was on a ton of pills??? But its like a group mentality thing with his buddies now. We are all getting divorced, have been divorced or are still single. What a life. We can all hang out again. I discovered we have a family friend that does family law so I reached out to him. I though he was a defense attorney but he's not so Im happy to have someone I know and trust in my corner.

He said everyone he told about us was not surprised bc we had been faking it for so long.

If you're going to continue to put yourself through the headache of talking to him, at least make sure he regrets his snarky asides by shaming him. Tell him none of your friends were surprised you caught him cheating again, or tell him that you look forward to not "faking it" anymore.
Sheesh. He needles you because it costs him nothing to do it. Make it unpleasant for him.

He said everyone he told about us was not surprised bc we had been faking it for so long.

Baloney. That is not a normal comment that people say when they hear about someone's divorce. He's either out-and-out lying, or he's referring only to close friends who he's been secretly telling for years that his marriage is just a fake.

I discovered we have a family friend that does family law so I reached out to him. I though he was a defense attorney but he's not so Im happy to have someone I know and trust in my corner.

That's wonderful! So glad to hear that!

[This message edited by morningglory at 9:52 PM, Tuesday, April 26th]

I fucked up. And I hate myself. I let myself down..and y'all down. He's been putting on the charm and asked when we would be back together. I danced around it he pressed. After two days I agreed to try.BUT I told him....my ultimatum is he would have to stop taking to these other girls (more on that. There's a new girl in town) and stop going out (on top of the typical shit). He said I would need to promise to change before he committed. I was flabbergasted. I stood firm and reminded him that if we were to "try" again, that the basic principle would be for him not to act single by talking to women and going to bars. For whatever fucking reason, I allowed myself to waste A FULL DAY trying to convince him to agree to my ultimatum. But I didn't see it at the time. Looking back I see it. Round and round we went and he never once agreed. I promised I would TRY to change, that change takes time. I know I've ever been the physical or affectionate type. He didn't like that. A promise to try "is not enough. A promise to try isnt a commitment". WHY THE HELL WAS I TRYING TO BEG HIM TO COMMIT?!?! We went to dinner with the kids (I know..please. I know) and he was pissed. Apparently some how some ambulance chaser got my info that I submitted to see if I qualified for that pro bono lawyer, and called him.and said I had a legal matter against him?! WTF. They can do that?! I was denied last week. Maybe the week before. How the he is that legal. What of he was super abusive and found out? That could literally get someone killed! Anyways. He was in his pre crazy state. I can tell. It's right before his pupils get big. He said stupid shit and then a girl walked by (and hoest to God I'm hoping ah was of age) and he goes "Damn" and I looked thinking something happened and I asked what's wrong? And he said "well look" and I see this chick with a shitty "pencial" skirt (aka a skirt that was a few sizes to small) a weird crop top and knock off birkenstocks. And for a second I was confused and inlooke sat home be I said "really?!" To which he says, "I can be that dick you make me out to be". I didn't think I could be any sadder. Madder. Heart or. Yet here I am. I understand rock bottom. I understand NC=no new hurts. I guess this is what I needed. That final nail in the coffin. And no sooner than we had dinner, or right before we met (timestamps are weird) he called the new girl. WHAT. THE. HELL. IS. WRONG. WITH. ME.

You're doing just fine. You're still proceeding with the divorce. It's normal for a woman in an abusive relationship to have difficulty leaving. That's typical and is not indicative of anything wrong with you. Once you're divorced and no contact with him for a time, you'll get your full senses back and feel fully in control, and this won't keep happening.

That is awful about an ambulance chaser calling him. If you have any way to get the contact info, I would report him to the state bar association. He should be disbarred because that is absolutely putting women in danger.

Just keep dedicating yourself to leaving each day. You'll get there. Keep the appointment with your attorney friend and follow through with his legal advice for divorce, custody and support. You'll be a free woman soon.

Wow... I'm so sorry. Not surprised. Just sorry.

Don't be too hard on yourself though. Your brain is literally wired to give him chances. So.. let's work on that, okay?

I think the best way to describe the way our brains create programming is to re-imagine our neural pathways as the the Two Wolves from the parable...

An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. "A fight is going on inside me," he said to the boy. "It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil – he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego."

He continued, "The other is good – he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you – and inside every other person, too."

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, "Which wolf will win?"

The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."

Your current default pathway thinks a lot about your WS and incorporates him into your day-to-day thoughts as a partner. It refers to him as "husband" and believes he's trustworthy, even in the face of all this evidence that he's not. It still relies on the story you've created to make this marriage tolerable.. no, preferable, to the alternative. The thing is though, we actually GROW our neural pathways and connections. You're not stuck with that "old wolf" just because he's the default right now. You can design and the grow a "new wolf", one who is programmed by YOU and what you know to be true. The new wolf understands that the STBX is NOT your friend. The new wolf doesn't want to talk about him and doesn't give a shit who he's dating, except maybe to feel sorry for her stupidity. The new wolf has a full life and too much to do to waste time on toxic people.

You see how that works? You basically have to change channels in your brain. Focus on feeding that new wolf by creatively visualizing the life you want and by drilling the FACTS of what your STBX turned out to be without the rose-colored glasses your old wolf is used to viewing him through. We have so much more control over our thought process than we think. We just don't always know how to exert it. Starving the old wolf means that you don't tolerate rumination on the marriage or on your ex. It means you FEED that new wolf instead. If you catch yourself ruminating or toking the hopium, you SQUASH IT. Take a walk, read a book, sing a song, draw a picture... and THINK about your new wolf, what you want that wolf to be for you.

It's hard, but you can do it. Get an attorney and put your house in order. I believe in you!

((hugs))