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I'm struggling to stay NC tonight. It's the first real night I feel like it's all setting in. No texts or calls from wh outside on about our daughter earlier before school got out. I have no idea what he's doing. I know he said he was getting his tattoo worked on (a tattoo for our son who passed away and has part softball the kids in it as well). I thought I'd get a text or picture when it was done. I saw an outgoing call to a girl my age that works at the place his boss owns. Could be nothing or they could be meeting for a damn date for all I know. I know IT DOESNT MATTER. But I'm pissed. He's going out like a fucking bachelor and I'm here doing this all because he couldnt be a better husband. ITS NOT FAIR. My kids don't have a dad at home because he thought other things were more appealing. I don't understand this at all. I know this is all part of it but I'm pissed. More pissed than the first time for multiple reasons but I think the reason that gets me the most is his IDGAF attitude. I would be devastated if I did something that caused this. And then he goes and still makes the decision that, "nah I'm good on seeing the kids". I mean it's not like we are going away for a night together. He chose not to be here and see his kids. I have no idea how I've gotten to this point in my life but I am pissed. I hate not knowing what he's doing.

It's going to be very difficult for you to get out of your mind while you're still in contact with him. NC = no new hurts. You will have difficulty starting to heal until you stop contact with him.

Think about it this way. If he said tomorrow, "I'm sorry I fucked up" Would it matter? Do you want to be with someone who's cheated on you twice? Who sounds like he was emotionally abusive, and not there for you? Sure you could talk on the phone, but what did he actually DO to help you and your children? Do you want a man that has cheated twice? Don't you deserve better than that?

Is there any explanation on any planet or universe that would make you feel better about what he has done?

You should just go with he's an ass who never really showed you his true self. That's why he does these things, that's why he is this way. He's a selfish entitled douche canoe.

All that from Nomudnolotus ^^^^. Plus this from me... try, try, try to reframe. Your STBX missed an evening with his wife and with his children, one that might have been idyllic if he had spent his time intentionally and with integrity. Take if from me, whose kids are grown now.. these times do not come back. I remember how tough it was to get a couple of screaming toddlers into their jays and all the antics and sass from older kids who don't think they need a bedtime anymore. This one smacked that one and that one didn't do their homework, and on and on. Some days you could just scream from the sheer difficulty of what seems like herding cats. But the TRUTH is that every single moment is precious. And he's choosing to miss it.

Don't you miss it too by being so caught up in your focus on this bad specimen of manhood that you lose the joy of what you still have. Reframe. And keep reframing. Try mindfulness. Engage in the all the precious moments spinning out in front of you. You'll be okay.

((big hugs))

ChamomileTea ^^^^^ all of this too!

From a different perspective also.

I'm the child of divorce. My dad was a cheating alcoholic who loved to party on his days off.

I didn't know this when I was a kid.

What I did know or feel, was the tension in the house, the stress and anger of my mother, which I thought was because I wasn't good enough.

I thought I wasn't enough for my father to pay attention to me.

I walked on eggshells for the first 13 years of my life, I had a cloud of doom floating over my head.

It has taken me years and years to even start to shake off the effects of this.

When my mother finally dumped him, things got better, she got better, she got healthy, she got happy, and we had a lot less money, but a much healthier home.

You think the kids don't know, but they do in their little hearts, they can feel what's going on.

Thank you guys. As always, you nailed it. I'm just in a shitty mood and have no where else to pitch a fit.
Nothing he says would change it. I know that. But it would still be nice to hear. Even if he didn't mean it at this point. Hell if I know. I just need... SOMETHING. I think I'm just going crazy. There's no structure. He just goes and does what he wants with who he wants and I'm here herding cats. We were supposed to do it together. I hate sounding like such an awful mom complaining about her kids. I just....I need time to breathe for a second. And I can't..I drove to the store to grab a bottle of wine tonight and that was the first time I'd been alone, totally alone in over two weeks since everything happened. I can't even get a good cry or scream in my pillow because I share the room with our baby. I thought "ok I'm in nthe car alone, I can get it all out." And nothing. Not even a twitch of an emotion. I keep rereading my posts and I'm clearly stuck on him not caring. It's just hard to face the facts that someone can say they love you, but make you feel like you don't love them enough, and then turn around and cheat on you twice. I'm in the depths of parenting with a baby that's not sleeping (I fell asleep in the car rider line today. Car was parked and the baby was asleep an so fell asleep. The teacher had to knock on the window to wake me up so my son could get in the car). And he's missing out on time with them for what? Bars?
I think I'm also worried about what he's doing because even though he cheated, I really hope he's not flaunting around town like this big single guy and embarrassing me. I really hope he will at least keep shit under wraps until we get a little further in this process. I know it doesnt matter. But. It does. To me. For now. Is it such a bad thing that I want him to show a little decency and respect?

No. That's reassuring. Our daughter just turned 11. I'm so worried about it. I do think she feels the tension though. I know she does. Right now I know I'm not doing a good job being happy. I mean, maybe I am. I feel like the days aren't horrible..I'm pretty focused on getting everything done when the kids are home. I'm sure I have my moments. But I do hope that things get better. I made a joke to a girl I know that is recently divorced....that I bet I don't have anxiety or depression, just an asshole husband. So maybe once the dust settles I'll feel better.

You will fee better Elle, but nc will help you get their faster. He is sauntering in and out of your home like he hasn't a care in the world and this sets you back every time.

Set up a visitation arrangement, even if he just takes the kids to Mcdonalds. This gives you some time alone, and HE can do some parenting. Hand off at the car, don't talk to about anything but kids and finances.

I know it hurts, I know you want answers, but no matter what he says, deep down you'll know it's just a bunch of lies, and you'll just have more questions.

He's shown you who he really is, believe him.

For your own sanity, you need nc, and to detach, and to make him step up and do some parenting, so that you can have some time to decompress.

You also have to cut yourself some slack about the kids. You can't be perfect, I didn't say that to make you feel bad, I only wish my mom had kicked my dad to the curb a few years earlier. She tried to keep the family together for so long, because she thought kids needed their parents together, all I'm saying is that once we got through the worst of it, it was better to have a single parent home with one happy healthy parent, then a two parent home that was completely dysfunctional. If he is a 40 year old man that needs to go out and drink, he has a drinking problem and an adulting problem.

It takes a lot of hard work to fix, and it doesn't sound like that is going to happen. I know it's utterly heartbreaking that he isn't the man you thought he was, but he probably never was.

If you look back you probably did a lot of justifying for his actions, because you wanted him to be the man you thought he was.

You are so much better than this, and you deserve so much more.

Remember that you are doing the best that you can, and it's a lot to happen all at once. It's a trauma, and you are a strong incredible woman.

Thank you No. And I didnt think you were trying to make me feel bad at all. I did justify a TON of his actions. Downplayed his rage when it would pop its head out in front of other people (usually just me and the kids were the lucky ones to see it).
Thank you for validating my feelings. It is heartbreaking. And it makes me sick. And it makes me sad. And...if im being REALLY honest with myself....I keep having the smallest bit of hope that he will come crawling back. I know its stupid. But after 16 years and 4 kids (including the loss of a child) and 4 miscarriages and the death of a parent and all of life's other shit, its hard to just turn that off. Ive said it before and Ill say it again. I know my situation isn't the worst on here. Its probably one of the least intense A's. And I know there are people that have been married longer and gone through more than we have. But it doesn't change the fact that he was my +1 for 16 years and for that person to just up and leave was unfathomable. No I dont want to be married to someone who could do this to me and the kids. No I dont want to walk on eggshells and worry about his next outburst. No I dont want to be in a marriage where I am continuously counting the days in between any type of intimacy to make sure we dont go too long because otherwise he will blow up (regardless of how badly I DONT want to do it). No I dont want to be in a marriage where I have to pay for things with sex and expectations of sex. No I dont want to watch his spending and wonder if he's off his meds because he seems to be a little manic. No I dont want to be in a marriage where I am made to feel like a "mooch" or "lazy' because I stayed at home with my kids during a pandemic so they wouldn't have to go to school and risk bringing home the virus to our newborn. No I dont want to be in a marriage where I will never be able to trust him, and then have that turned around on me and be called "crazy, controlling, jealous, or psycho". All of these things make sense on paper but the chemistry in my brain is having a hard time coming to those same terms.
I managed to go NC. Our last communication was at 1:07 pm yesterday. It is 830 am now. he texted me at 8 trying to set up a time for the kids today. I haven't responded simply bc my phone is in the bedroom and Im not risking waking the baby up to get it. I ended up sleeping in the big kids room. My daughter wanted to sleep with her grandmother so that means brother got to sleep in the top bunk lol. So I got in the bottom. It was probably what kept me no contact since I left my phone. But hey, whatever it takes right?

I totally understand where you are at Elle. Logically you see all that is wrong with him as a man and a husband and father. But...1. you have been trained to except that, it's abuse, with the walking on eggshells and bursts of anger, you've been trained to accept this as normal. Logically you know it's not normal, but you've rationalized and normalized this so long so that you could love this man, that you do still love him.

But, do you want him back because you love him, or is it fear of what is going to happen to your life? Fear of losing time with your children? These are things that you should dig into.

Good for you for going nc. I would write him a text that says this is best for now, and lets set up times during the week for you to take the kids out somewhere. Make sure you have a paper trail that you aren't just ignoring him. That you're giving him access to the kids, just not where you live.

Something like "Hello Douchecanoe, having you in my home and space is no longer working for me. I know it may be some time before we can get a formal custody arrangement set up, so what would you feel would work for you as far as taking the kids.

If you choose to have overnights you will need a crib, car seat, diapers etc available at your new place. Let me know what you are thinking so we can work something out on this." Signed, Badass mom and wife who is so much better than you.

I'm also very sorry for the losses of your other children, I know how heartbreaking that is from personal experience.

Elle you are strong, so strong, and I know you're hurting so badly right now, and you're scared, and overwhelmed and lonely. You can do this though, you've got this.

I will tell you this. After my mom finally kicked my dad to the curb and she got some concelling, she met the absolute most wonderful man and they have been married for almost 30 years and he treats her like a queen, and he treats us better than our own father ever did.

I look forward to the time when the dust has settled and not so angry, sad, heartbroken, and wanting revenge lol. We took the kids to the zoo today. It was planned. We promise sour daughter and we are trying to let her see things will be ok etc. And it was a good day..the drive out there ewws rough. I cried pretty.mucj the whole way (although wh didn't see). We got home and he went to use the bathroom and immediately walks out and asks if I "could sew this on bc it just fell off". It was the button to his pants. In my mind I said "ok" but what I actually said surprised me, and made him scoff. I said "you have a belt on, you'll survive". I wanted to say yes but I realize that was part of the "pick me pick me" dance. I have nothing to prove anymore..I could have done it. And he knows it. But it's not my job anymore. I know it seems small but to me it was big.

If it feels big it is big. Go you for not playing the pick me dance!

Small but gentle two by four now,

I know you want your kids to see that it's okay, and if you have some things planned, I understand. But, please don't plan anything else, that is playing pick me. They still know that things aren't okay. It would be better if they learned "mommy and daddy aren't together anymore, but we both still love you" Then did things with him and things with you, not together.

That is telling him that what he did is not that bad, otherwise why would you go somewhere with him? That is letting him play happy family when he has destroyed that. That is confusing to your children. If you're going to be separated/divorced, then be that, for their sake.

You think he didn't see you crying, but he probably did, this would give him an ego trip. "Look I treat Elle like crap and she still wants me so bad"

Go nc with this man, set up a custody schedule, don't go with him, hand off kids at the door.

It had been planned for a few weeks bc of DD bday. I'm sure he thinks I was crying over him, which I wasn't. I was crying over the fact that that "family" wasn't a family anymore..not in a literal sense I guess. I was more angry. Crying that he had to go and fuck it up for all of us. And I had overheard him on the phone with his mom while we were waiting to go. I'm not sure what she said but he told her "we've seen it coming for a while, what's done is done" and that "regardless of her mood, I'm gonna have a great time with my kids today". Because apparently I walked out of the room right when he walked in???? And even if I was in a mood ( I wasn't, not like I wanted to be) I'm allowed to be in a mood so eff off....ya know? But it made me angry to hear him still spinning his story "it's been coming for a while" or "it was inevitable" yeah... because you cheated ya idiot. But again, in his mind he had created this whole story of how terrible things were and how awful a wide I was and blah blah blah. So. Yeah. I did get a good meal out of it though soni consider that a plus

I'm glad you got a good meal out of it!

I'm glad you got your inner anger, you need that!

It feels like you are seeing more and more what a jerk he is, and that's good for you, it will help you shut down the love feelings!

You've done a good job by realizing it's time to end the relationship, and standing firm on that point. That said, and with 100% sympathy, I have some stern advice:

Stop pretending to be an intact family. That is not reality. That is not helpful to your kids; it is gaslighting them. It confuses them, makes them question their reality, and as you know from being cheated on, that is a bad way to feel. It also models for them that this is the way a mother should be treated by the father of her children. Do you really want them to believe that? Model for them strength and independence, instead.

Be honest and admit the reason you're doing the joint outings and letting him into the house "to see the baby" is because you are still attached to him and want to see him. As long as you keep up this pattern, you will continue to be an emotional yo-yo, content or miserable based on his whims, his comings and goings and the things he says.

Go no contact with him, for real, as in you don't see him or talk to him anymore, just communicate via brief texts/emails, and exchange kids at a neutral meeting point. People keep recommending this to you not because it's a nice abstract idea, but because it actually WORKS. Really, it will end your pain and bring peace to your home life. Those of us who are urging no contact have been in your shoes, betrayed, longing, angry, hurt, etc. And genuine no contact brought all of those feelings to an end and eventually allowed us to happily move on.

Do not keep trying to do his half of the parenting for him. If he more or less drops out of the kids' lives, then they will learn not to view him as a role model, for either themselves or for a future spouse. You wouldn't actually want one of your children to have a relationship like this, would you? If not, end the facade and stop modeling poor relationship skills to them.

You can move on without him and be fully happy again. It's going to require an initially painful period of no contact, but after a while, the no contact will be a source of happiness for you. You're a strong person, stronger than you think. You've got this.

[This message edited by morningglory at 3:13 AM, Sunday, April 24th]

I do think there is a lot of fear wrapped up in all of this. I am actually quite independent. Or used to be. I never really had boyfriends. I had a few but none were really that serious. I Didnt have time for them, didn't want to bother with the hassle. But as far as being alone, that doesn't scare me.I actually look forward to it. When I was in the hospital for 3 months, it was glorious. Dont get me wrong, it was hard. I missed the kids, it was during the peak of covid before we had even a whisper of a vaccine so I couldnt have visitors, there were no groups for the long term patients to get together for, I had lab draws every morning at 245 am., midline placements every 10 days, infusions, boredom like crazy, BUT not having to worry about his moods every day. Not getting guilt tripped for being gone. I still saw the kids everyday, but he had to step up. I do worry about missing time with the kids. But I am hopeful that once we get things sorted and we've moved on from the A, we can tackle the big events together. I worry A LOT about another woman. A step mom, or a GF. When I became a step mom, my SD was 2. And her mom and WH did not get along. But the ex and I did. And at the time I didnt see what a big deal it was but now I do. Thats mostly because she had been cheating on him and moved away with the guy and got married so she was clearly over it lol. And hopefully ill get there and another woman won't make me want to scream.
Ive always been the fixer. When something broke I fixed it. I did all the home projects. I was always the problem solver. Honestly, the majority of stuff WH did, it was because I needed to give him something to do to make him feel like I needed him. Does that make sense? The only thing I really NEEDED him for was driving over bridges so Im gonna have to figure that out since our beach here is an island and I need to drive over 2 to get there.
Im really starting to see the "little moments" that everyone talks about that he will miss. After the zoo he dropped us off and left. My mom isn't home, he could have stayed to help with baths etc or put the baby down for bed if he wanted. Or hell, just had some more time with the kids. I wouldn't say no if he asked. But he didnt. He just left. So I got the boys bathed and we are playing and just doing whatever and then it hit me. That Im doing all of this stuff. The dinners and baths and bedtime and bedtime stories and the weekend breakfasts and checking on them in the middle of the night and up with the baby at night (wouldn't mind handing that off to someone though lol). Those little moments add up over time. And yeah we may take them to the zoo or a waterpark one day. He may take them to a hockey game or the movies, but when kids grow up and look back, they remember who was there all the time. Who tucked them in every night. Who cooked dinner. When we talk about stuff with my SD, its so frustrating sometimes because she doesnt remember hardly anything we did when she would visit. And when she visited we did SO MUCh because we had very limited time with her. She doesn't really remember Disney World or playing with baby tigers, or all the visits to the waterpark. She remembers the comforter her mom picked out for her bed when she was 5 because they always played a game with it at night. Thats the stuff he's missing out on. Its not HIS memories that are being messed up. Its the kids memories OF HIM. I dont think he gets that. He should. He's done this before. He would get so frustrated that his SD missed her mom so much when she would visit. When they moved back he still had to really work hard to get her to spend time with us. You'd think he would want to avoid that again, yet here he is.

You are absolutely right Morningglory. I do want to see him. Because when I see him, I know he's not doing anything else. I know he's not talking to anyone else. It takes that part of my anxiety away. I KNOW. I know it doesn't matter at this point. It really doesn't. Im having a hard time with that. The not knowing. And I know everyone gets it. I promise I am trying to go NC. But when I told him I didnt want him here last Saturday, he immediately turned it around that I was keeping him from him kids. I told my mom tonight she is going to have to watch the kids one day this week so he and I can make our arrangements. Its not a conversation we will be able to have in front of the kids. Because I need to set the boundaries. His coming and going isn't healthy or fair to me or the kids. We need structure and routine.
How did y'all handle the child support and alimony before it went to court? Im still working out details for my lawyer so I can only imagine how long this will all take. We talked about $400 a week for child support. I haven't mentioned alimony to him, but I do think its owed. Ive been a SAHM for 3 years, we've been together 16 yrs, married 13 yrs (14 this October). Is asking for alimony something you do now or later? Even if its just a little. I want him to pay something. He resented me every moment of the 3 years I was a SAHM because he absolutely hated supporting me. He has brought up me not having a job being one of his "big issues" in our marriage, even though we both talked and agreed on it. Oh and lets not forget that I always had 2-3 jobs. REAL jobs, not side hustles. JOBS. Now that im ready to get down to the financial side of it, I have a whole other ball of nerves in me.

Before we went to court, my ex (who was abusive, even worse than yours) completely ran the show, took advantage of my kindness and weakness at every turn, subjected me to constant criticism, and was consistently difficult about money and scheduling.

Getting the legal agreement saved my life. It was night vs day. No more arguing. No more debates. No more values discussions. No more contact. Get thee to a lawyer asap and get the wheels of divorce and custody moving asap. It makes all the difference in the world.

Btw, these bullies melt in front of a judge. It's like when the Wicked Witch of the West gets water thrown on her at the end of The Wizard of Oz. It happened in my case and my lawyer said it is common for abusive men to do that. They know they can't push anyone around in court. So don't let any of his threats intimidate you about getting that legal settlement.

[This message edited by morningglory at 3:22 AM, Sunday, April 24th]

We talked about $400 a week for child support. I haven't mentioned alimony to him, but I do think its owed. Ive been a SAHM for 3 years, we've been together 16 yrs, married 13 yrs (14 this October). Is asking for alimony something you do now or later? Even if its just a little. I want him to pay something.

I would see an attorney, seriously. Your WH is already acting like an asshat. No way would I try to negotiate a settlement with him on my own. If you just need a quick idea about what child support and alimony might look like, you can probably find some information online. Try punching in the name of your state and "child support calculator".

A lawyer will advise you on the financial settlement, how much to push for, and he/she will do the pushing for you. It's a wonderful thing, having an attorney working for you, because the attorney isn't emotional, isn't intimidated, tells you not to contact your ex, etc.

Don't try to settle this on your own. Get a lawyer even if you have to use legal aid and/or borrow money from your mother.

[This message edited by morningglory at 3:25 AM, Sunday, April 24th]