SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Not to TJ but if you could, your signature reads "Headed for divorce" and I'm curious if that is still current, are you still married, in the middle of a D? Did it wake her up?

I am sure Unhinged will answer you too, but I just wanted to add in my thoughts.

You seem to still be hoping for some kind of hail mary where your wife suddenly 'wakes up' or comes back. That is not a good reason to file for D imo. Filing is not some kind of tactic or tool to use to try to manipulate an outcome. Filing is for YOU. It is to get you out of an untenable situation and away from a marriage to an unremorseful wayward.

The 180 is also a technique for YOU - it is designed to give you some much-needed mental space and clarity so you can hopefully make a decision from a place of logic rather than emotion. The 180 is not so you can make your ww do or act differently.

Could either filing or a hard 180 'wake her up'? Maybe. But not likely. And if you're doing either of those things to try to change her, you're very likely going to be disappointed.

If you DO decide to file for D, make sure you are doing that for yourself and not to try to get your ww to do something or to behave like a committed spouse.

You seem to still be hoping for some kind of hail mary where your wife suddenly 'wakes up' or comes back. That is not a good reason to file for D imo. Filing is not some kind of tactic or tool to use to try to manipulate an outcome. Filing is for YOU. It is to get you out of an untenable situation and away from a marriage to an unremorseful wayward.

This, times a million. Filing D is not a gambit to catalyze her actions. In fact, it is said repeatedly here that you should NOT try to control her actions in any way. You can only control you. You don't point a gun at somebody unless you actually plan to shoot them. You don't file D unless you actually want a divorce.

Ellie:

As I read my message I can see that it might look like I'm exploring that possibility, to use D as a wake up call.

That isn't my intent. When the day comes I tell the WW I want to D, it won't be a tactic, or a strategy. I will never bring that up unless I absolutely mean it.

A few months ago when WW threatened D, that very next day I started making calls to attorneys and started a spreadsheet of assets to split. A quick discussion are you sure this is what you want, and after that no pleading, just moving ahead. In other words I'm not playing with D, nor using D to play.

I was curious at the situation is all.

YOU:

"Yeah, but these scenes stir up a lot of bad feelings, I mean the guy on TV is not principled, and your OM wasn't principled I mean he knew you were married and still pursued you, and the difficulty thinking of you as unprincipled to go for it."

Wife response: Yes, I understand how you would feel that way. I was unprincipled. I am working hard to fix that, and want to continue to make it up to you. I am so sorry I did this to you.

Unhinged has a preteen son. He's stated a few times that immediate D would have been his choice without that. That's a purpose for staying that you don't have. It will likely be better for your youngest if you separate. I have to believe she feels complicit in your betrayal since she was present.

I would venture to guess that unhinged's marriage is unlikely to survive past ten years when that child is reaches adulthood. He falls into the pattern of the BS who tries to stay but just can't move past the A. Eventually the resentment builds to a point that the M becomes just too toxic to stay. Most of the time this happens around the 5 year mark, and he's a year or two past that. I can't see him and his WW getting to a place that M survives w/o the purpose of raising the child.

You seem to be coming to terms that your WW is not a candidate and is very unlikely to become one with which you can R. She is unable to give you the things you need to heal. The question is how long you are going to hold on to your marriage and how much damage you are going to take before you let go. I see this as you holding a match she lit. Unless she helps put it out, which she has shown little desire to do, you are going to get burnt. Ask yourself if it is better for you financially and emotionally to get out now or in five years?

Two months after d-day I was ready for a divorce. My son had just turned four years old. He was my life and I was his. I stayed for him. My STBX did her best to reconcile. For me, though, infidelity is a deal-breaker and I couldn't "get past it."

I don't post much in the R forum. Your thread, however, caught my attention.

I truly believe that any BS offering the gift of R has to prepare himself for the very real possibility that the his WW may not be willing or able to do the work that R requires.

Anna:

Yes, that would have been wonderful to hear.

It makes me think of a compliment, "You have the empathy of a betrayed spouse"

grubs / Unhinged:

Thank you for sharing the update. Having a young son changes things. My kids are older, I'm not really concerned about them and I think my youngest would probably want to live with me.

Raising a young boy in the shadow of adultery is so horrible, and I'm sorry to hear it. I'm sure you'll work things the way you need to.

I'm in much the same situation with an 11 year old son. Absent that I can't imagine staring with my WW.

HowCouldSheDoIt, what is your biggest objection to hitting the eject button here? Your WW doesn't sound like a very pleasant person and she completely disregards your pain. The chance of a repeat seems high here.

What are the upsides in staying? What are the downsides in leaving?

[This message edited by SI Staff at 9:52 PM, Wednesday, July 21st]

Thumos:

what is your biggest objection to hitting the eject button here?

Being sure it is the right thing to do. Plus the timing will be better when she starts her new job in a couple weeks and is earning an income.

Your WW doesn't sound like a very pleasant person

I disagree, she is very pleasant. So long as I don't mention the A and just rugsweep, things would be back on track quickly.

and she completely disregards your pain.

Yes, she does. No effort whatsoever in making amends for the A.

What are the upsides in staying? What are the downsides in leaving?

It would be good to keep the family together, I'm comfortable in this life, financially it is a big hit to leave, hard to start over, hate to walk away from a life I've built. I do recognize that life is gone forever, still difficult to let go.

It would be good to keep the family together, I'm comfortable in this life, financially it is a big hit to leave, hard to start over, hate to walk away from a life I've built. I do recognize that life is gone forever, still difficult to let go.

I wouldn't let the finances be the deciding point or even a heavy weight in deciding. No matter what the split is going to be in the next year, you'll end up giving away less now than in five years. Money was a fear of mine when I D'd as I took on the home and car payments for her car that was in my name. I actually had three cars post D. I really thought I was going to struggle to make ends meet. Turns out that she was greatly outspending the amount of money that she brought in and while it was tight for a year or two, I ended up better off rather quickly.

Someone who completely disregards your pain that they are the very cause of is by definition an unpleasant person.

Why do you twist yourself into knots to deny the obvious?

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:23 AM, July 22nd (Thursday)]

Someone who completely disregards your pain that they are the very cause of is by definition an unpleasant person.

When I was at my codependent worst, I was an amazing compartmentalizer. Many BS who post here are as well, although they don't realize it. (Do compartmentalizers ever realize what they are doing?) My H could do something so hurtful, and I would let things go back to normal. I would make dinner, laugh with him, watch a movie. It felt--judgmental, I guess--to stay upset with someone who had a good side. I would get angry at myself sometimes. "Stay angry, Owning! He deserves your cold shoulder!" But I could not keep the anger because going with the flow, being a nice person, not rocking the boat was my core self.

This is how codependency is almost a hidden "illness," but it is really just a very, very common personality trait in betrayed spouses. I have made the controversial statement that this personality trait is what made some/many selfish waywards believe we would forgive the cheating in the first place --we compartmentalize our hurts for the sake of peace in our lives and with our partner. I do believe that HCSDI's WW fits this description.

I had to teach myself to hold a grudge, that healthy people do not dismiss poor treatment in order to embrace the offender's many good traits. Healthy people have boundaries that do not allow mistreatment. It is my belief that HowCouldSheDoIt will need to confront his inability to stay upset with his WW, his entrenched desire to be the good guy at home, his dismissing of his own feelings as not important enough to make waves, and his lack of boundaries (relational changes like withholding friendship, meals, time, affection) with a person who disrespects him.

It is only when I look back that I can see that my husband betraying me wasn't the worst betrayal; that title belongs to the pain of betraying myself. I cannot believe the way I valued the M over my own feelings and value. I cringe. I treated myself so badly by allowing my H to treat me so badly as many BS do. All with a smile on my face. We have to actually learn not to be this way, and for many of us this is a brand new way to live. HCSDI will need to figure this out for himself like so many of us do. This is the way we BS learn and grow...and realize we save ourselves. Our WS can't do it for us.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 10:55 AM, July 22nd (Thursday)]

I honestly thought she was the one who had to work on it ... I feel like she's putting you in a position of guilt if you don't sweep everything under the rug quickly ... She would like you to carry on as if it never happened ... Impossible. .

I cringe. I treated myself so badly by allowing my H to treat me so badly as many BS do. All with a smile on my face. We have to actually learn not to be this way, and for many of us this is a brand new way to live. HCSDI will need to figure this out for himself like so many of us do. This is the way we BS learn and grow...and realize we save ourselves. Our WS can't do it for us.

This was a very difficult lesson to learn. In looking back I also cringe, because if anyone had been doing these things to my daughter I'd be the first to tell her it's bullshit! But I couldn't see it! I thought he was a good father and a good husband because he provided, doing a job that he didn't like sometimes just to bring home that paycheck. That he was good because he was home, unlike other men who went out drinking at bars and stayed out all night. Because even though he sat at his desk playing video games all night, if I needed him, he was there!

I knew he was selfish, that if he had to do anything that was an inconvenience for him, he would make an excuse to not do it. Or blame me for me having a difficult time (so many stories about this). I didn't even realize that he would DARVO (a term I only learned since joining this site) me every single time I brought up something he didn't want to deal with or talk about (mostly something he'd said or done that made me feel a negative feeling). That shit was OFF THE TABLE where he was concerned.

And yet, given all that, I gave him the benefit of the doubt and started believing his bullshit. I even told my IC (this was only a year ago) that I knew I just took some things too personally. Because that's what he would always tell me!

You might be too close to the problem, and yeah, your wife might be a decent person most times. Just like mine was/is. Usually though, they are that way because they are happy with the status quo. As soon as you upset the apple cart, they are no longer pleasant because you have the audacity to bring up their failures. The audacity to expect them to own up to their bad decisions. You hold a mirror to their face and they don't like it. So yeah, like you said, if you rugsweep and shut the hell up about her A, then all is good! In fact, all is GREAT! For her. And honestly, isn't that all that matters?

I know it's that way for my WH. Pre-A anyway. He even admitted it. As long as he was getting what he wanted from me, he was happy, and didn't need to meet my needs at all.

I just recently saw this thread over here in the R forum and have been reading it after following you on JFO. I started writing this post around page 6 of this thread and some of it may be late because you are starting to open your eyes, but I will post it anyway, because much still applies.

Your situation is really distressing to follow. Please know we are trying to help and encourage you. We are both men of faith, so I will address you accordingly.

“My whole attitude about money is security.”

Money was not designed for security. Security comes from that which cannot be taken away. This is the root issue with your materialism I had mentioned earlier. True security can only come from our relationship with God. You will not find it in your 401k - or your wife.

You say you have read “No More Mr. Nice Guy”. Dr. Glover talks therein about toxic shame and how it is one of the principal factors of creating the Nice Guy Syndrome. I think you have bucket loads of it. You say that you were abusive. Us Nice Guys are not really that nice. We are resentful and passive-aggressive towards others rather than dealing upfront with our needs and wants because we draw our self-acceptance from other’s acceptance of us. The nice guy needs validation from others rather than finding it within. You are emotionally dependent on your wife for your well being. That can be suffocating to a woman – to anyone for that matter – and it is a dagger in the heart of sexual attraction (that's not blaming you for the A). Does she feel to you more like your mother than your wife? More of a caregiver than a partner?

I strongly encourage you to really drill down into your shame and abandonment issues. You will need professional help. The book “Healing The Shame That Binds You” by John Bradshaw, is a good source. Please note that no book receives a “blanket endorsement” from me. I approach each with the attitude of a miner looking for gold nuggets of truth even if I disagree with (and usually do) the author’s world view. DSO writes “Now What” and “The Dead Bedroom Fix” that can help you recognize pathetic behaviors you are doing. Again, I don’t agree with all that they teach, just looking for nuggets. “Practical Female Psychology for Practical Men” by Joseph W South, will help you understand some of the testing and manipulation you are experiencing. You need to learn about the "Double Bind" and all of its variations and how to handle it. All of these and more titles are available as audio books on Scribd with no limit to the number of titles per month you choose to listen to – unlike Audible. I listen multiple times at different speeds and it helps. Also, for a more hands-on method, there is “No More Mr. Nice Guy: The Hero’s Journey, A Step By Step Guide” by Michael Pariser, a colleague of Dr. Glover. This is an in-depth, how-to book to apply the steps outlined by Glover.

You cannot change or control your wife but you can change and control YOU. You have very much work to do on yourself. I encourage you to use this upcoming period of separation due to her work to revolutionize your life. For that to begin you must first decide that you hate the way your life is going and are ready to do the hard work of change. She can take it or leave it, but she will see (not hear – quit talking) the direction your life has taken and where you are going and either continue her separate path or get on the train. Only then is when the true work can begin. She will find out her bs and manipulation will no longer work on this new man. This new man won’t get pissed she didn’t do something the right way because he no longer NEEDS anything from her. He may WANT some things but he is not needy. You don’t need to post on FB how you are changing because that would be doing it for the wrong reasons – to get a reaction from her. That is weak thinking. Embrace the vision of that new man and do the work. Not to win her back, but to bring positive change in yourself.

Dee said, “You will change whether you want to or not. You won't be so able to deal with this limbo as time goes on and she starts going out of town.”

This is true. The Torture Train is coming at you at full speed and will flatten you like a penny on the tracks, whether you are ready for it or not. You are going to change. We are offering you the choice to change into the version of yourself that you will like and respect. You will not like the version of you that the Torture Train creates. Neither will anyone else – your WW who will D you, or any future prospects whom you try to rebuild with.

I know that you hope to salvage your marriage. I really hope you do. But true reconciliation is not the destination of the path that you are currently walking. Seriously look at D and all of the details that will involve. Knowledge is power and even if you choose to persevere, you will have a better resolve in it by fully understanding why you did not choose D.

All the best to you. Strength, brother.

[This message edited by CuriousObserver at 6:41 PM, July 22nd (Thursday)]

Thank you for the replies.

True security can only come from our relationship with God

That is true. Money was never an idol of mine and when I had a home church I was dutiful tither. Having money saved helps to assuage my core fears. But I do take your point.

In fact I take all of your points and I thank you for taking the time to write it. I will check out more of those resources. I have never read DSO and he has some cathartic articles, but I agree when you say there isn't a blanket endorsement because he also writes kind of like that MGTOW movement, which is interesting but hard to agree fully with. But it has been helpful to read and consider.

These past couple weeks I've felt more anger returning. Anger like "Who the fuck does she think she is?" and feeling like a sucker for sticking around.

It was around two weeks ago when I started going more grey-rock, and a few days after that WW asked me about things and I said "I give up. I'm through trying, I just can't any longer" and of course she just walks away and ignores me for the next week. I ignore her and start putting together a mental balance sheet of assets. Fuck it. Saturday she approaches me and says she's sorry for hurting me and I told her (I had planned it but hadn't really rehearsed it yet)

Me:"I realize that I was trying to affect an outcome to R, I wasn't trying to control you, but I can see it probably felt manipulative. I will not do that anymore. I'm not saying I want to divorce, but I am saying I give up. It feels too one-sided, I feel alone, there's no cooperation, and I can't take the daily hurt of watching how resourceful and ambitious you are for your career, but no effort at all for making amends for the cheating. I would think that you make amends for the A regardless of my past behaviors, because it is the right thing to do. The bible is very clear that your sin is yours alone, and cannot be blamed on anyone else."

WW:"I do want to make amends"

Me:"I thought you did too. But my boundary of 'I cannot be in a marriage with unaddressed adultery' seems to be in conflict with your boundary of 'We cannot talk about the adultery'"

WW:"I don't have that boundary. I want to talk about it. What do you want me to do?"

Me:"I'm not going to give you things to do until we're doing R, which is about plugging in and committing"

WW:"How do I show you I am plugged in and committed?"

Me:"I suppose I would start by sitting down with me and going through the MacDonald book starting on chapter 6 and asking which parts are most relevant and most important to me, and how you're going to make changes to implement."

WW:"Ok, we'll do it tonight"

Me:"I don't want to do it tonight or this week, we have too busy of a week. We can do it next week, before you leave."

So that's where things are at. I meant every word I said and as I write this I feel very different. I don't feel fear or anxiety. I feel more indignant. She probably handled things in the best possible way but I still feel unconvinced.

So that's my update.

There's a bit in Bo Burnhams new comedy special where he is talking to Socko (a sock puppet). Not totally relevant but I felt some parallels.

Bo: "What can I do to help?"

Socko: "Read a book or something, I don't know

Just don't burden me with the responsibility of educating you

It's incredibly exhausting"

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 10:30 AM, July 27th (Tuesday)]

"How do I show you I am plugged in and committed?"

It always seems like a WS should know the answer to this. But they don’t. SOME of it is self-preservation. They KNOW they made BAD choices, and I think most assume they will never be accepted back in to the marriage.

I have a great R. Not a good R, a great one. And I know how rare it is. But how we got here was me drawing a hard line on what I needed in order to stay in the marriage.

I didn’t do the D or else thing.

I think if I did that I would always question her motivation for change. I want her to want me and this relationship as much I do (or did before the A).

That said, she knew I was done one day. I didn’t say it, she just knew I wasn’t in it anymore. So, she ASKED me what I wanted.

I told her.

I wanted what I signed up for. A marriage where I don’t have to play detective or watch my back. A relationship where we give instead of take. A relationship where checking in with me is CONSIDERATION and not twisted in into the CONTROL word.

I’ve always checked in with her, because that’s what a team does.

So, my wife didn’t jump all in either.

But when she did, she really did. It doesn’t make her perfect ‘now’ — I just SEE the effort, every day. Most important, I feel it.

I have no idea if your WS will figure it out, just saying what R looked like for me.

Hard as Hell, but consistent actions pay off (a couple YEARS of it) later.

These past couple weeks I've felt more anger returning. Anger like "Who the fuck does she think she is?" and feeling like a sucker for sticking around.

Now is a good time to pay attention to this. If you read the book "Cheating in a Nutshell" you'll get some more insight into this.

Me:"I suppose I would start by sitting down with me and going through the MacDonald book starting on chapter 6 and asking which parts are most relevant and most important to me, and how you're going to make changes to implement."

WW:"Ok, we'll do it tonight"

I think you're doing relatively well in detaching, but I think you need to have a harder edge about it. Stop holding her hand on this.

When she asks, "What can I do?" Say, "It's not my job to tell you what to do. You were smart enough to figure out how to commit adultery, you're smart enough to figure this out on your own."

"Google that shit."

[This message edited by Thumos at 11:40 AM, July 27th (Tuesday)]