SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hurthalo,

If you follow Bigger's advice, you'll both see whether or not you want to be together, and the choice between D & R will become clear - you'll both see that either you want enough of the same life or you don't.

I urge you to lay out your requirements, the deal breakers. Lay out your desires. Find out if they match your W's.

It isn't valid to try to renegotiate a contact that has already been agreed to.

I have great difficulty accepting that. W2b and I talked a lot about our lives after our wedding, and those talks were part of our contract as far as I'm concerned.

And within 7 years, our lives were very different from what we had promised each other. We renegotiated throughout the years as old options disappeared and new ones came into our lives. Certain desires became stronger Other desires, strong at the beginning of our relationship, became far weaker.

I don't mean to quibble about words, but I have great difficulty discerning between what actually happens in M and renegotiating the M. If what actually happens isn't renegotiation, the effect is pretty much the same.

It isn't valid to try to renegotiate a contact that has already been agreed to. You hire a contractor to do a certain job for x amount of money, and he decides that he isn't going to do the work but still takes the money. That's grounds for a lawsuit and/or termination of contract, which is analogous to divorce.

The standard marriage vows don't describe a specific lifestyle beyond remaining faithful, sharing possessions, and staying together until death. That allows for all of the normal changes of life (kids/no kids/more travel/less travel, etc.)

This WS has broken her vows and now wants to invalidate one of the vows: fidelity. That is not okay mid-marriage. Especially since in reality marriage vows are not merely legally contractual, but also honor vows made in the presence of God, family and community.

Saying you don't want to abide by one of the vows is akin to requesting divorce. Which is where this mess does seem headed.

I don't think this is reasonable, honestly. People change, and want different things. If both spouses want to renegotiate the boundaries of their marriage, why is that such a terrible thing? Frankly, I suspect most people would rather have their spouse lay their cards on the table that they want to be nonmonogamous rather than cheat. Wouldn't you? Then you have the choice to accept or reject the change, or discuss it further.

Marriages are not one size fits all. The beauty of relationships is setting agreements that work for the people involved.

HurtHalo, I was sorry to see your last update. I would absolutely tell the coworker's wife. People can and do cheat in poly relationships, too. The difference there is that cheating is violating an agreement rather than being specifically about sex or romance or intimacy. And an ethical polyamorous person would not have been making all these suggestions to your wife, quite frankly.

You deserve so much better than this.

Frankly, I suspect most people would rather have their spouse lay their cards on the table that they want to be nonmonogamous rather than cheat. Wouldn't you?

No, monogamy is a pillar of marriage. When people marry and vow to one another and to God to be faithful, they are expected to follow through with their vows.

Of course you can renegotiate what your marriage should be. It’s called "negotiating" not dictating. The word implies you have a conversation and come to an agreement on what you both want or can accept. In this thread it sounds like the wife is dictating the terms – or at the very least there is a great gap between what she says and what she does.

Very few (if any) enter a marriage totally clear on all the terms. This isn’t a formal contract that beforehand dictates how life will develop, but rather a collection of expectations and assumptions. Monogamy is one of them and to many a key factor. I think it’s fair to say that someone entering a marriage that wants to omit monogamy could do that IF the partner is in agreement and it’s clear from the get-go.

To me – the way the WW went about broaching the subject of polyamory at MC isn’t the issue. In many ways that was the correct place to do so. However, seeing the OP reluctance to open the marriage the WW has two honest options IMHO: She can accept that the marriage is both sexually and emotionally monogamous or she can divorce. If she wants to spend time discussing the issue then she should stick to the original monogamous marriage while they get to the bottom of that issue.

Let's not assume that what applies to us applies to everybody. Let's minimize our reliance on dogma. Let's remember there are vast knowledge gaps in ALL of us.

There really are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in our philosophies.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:39 PM, Sunday, June 12th]

I’m a much more simplistic person than I used to be so my advice is also simple. Be grateful that she said something out loud and because you know it’s not what you want, you know you have no reason to stay.

Not to downplay all of the advice here but you can be incensed about the timing. You can feel blindsided by what she said. You can be angry and feel like you’ve wasted more of your time. You are right to feel all those things. But all that being said she has now told you what she wants and you don’t want it. The fact that apparently she has acted on it again just reiterates my point. Period. Game over. No need to try to figure out any more details or “negotiate” the terms of your marriage unless you are willing to concede this aspect of what she wants to do. it’s what she wants to do and you now know it. Move forward accordingly with you life. Time is of the essence because you only have one life as far as I know. Don’t waste another minute.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 11:16 PM, Thursday, June 23rd]

Not to downplay all of the advice here but you can be incensed about the timing. You can feel blindsided by what she said. You can be angry and feel like you’ve wasted more of your time. You are right to feel all those things. But all that being said she has now told you what she wants and you don’t want it. The fact that apparently she has acted on it again just reiterates my point. Period. Game over. No need to try to figure out any more details or "negotiate" the terms of your marriage unless you are willing to concede this aspect of what she wants to do. it’s what she wants to do and you now know it. Move forward accordingly with your life. Time is of the essence because you only have one life as far as I know. Don’t waste another minute.

Read this. Then read it again. Then again.

My xwh did the "I'm poly I'm gonna sleep with other people" thing too. Whether he is or not I still couldn't tell you. What I CAN tell you is that I AM NOT. I'm not poly. I don't want an open marriage. I don't want to date and sleep with a lot of people. I don't want a spouse/partner who DOES want those things. I tried to 'negotiate' it for 6 months after the initial bombshell before I snapped out of it and told him flatly and firmly that he was welcome to date and sleep with anyone he liked... but he couldn't do that AND stay married to me. Period. I am passing no judgment on polyamorous people - if that's your thing then do it honestly and openly and I wish you well. But I am not that and never will be and will not negotiate on that point for myself.

Remove the sex thing from the equation. If your wife said that she wanted to live in Finland period end of sentence, and you wanted to live in Australia period end of sentence and neither of you was willing to even think about living somewhere else... how would that marriage work? I did my homework after dday. I really did take a serious look at poly as a lifestyle. But ultimately he wanted that and I did not, and ne'er the two shall meet. There's just no healthy workaround for that scenario.

If you're not into being in an open marriage - SAY SO. Say it loud say it proud my friend. Because vows or not, you are under no obligation to entertain this if it isn't what YOU want. You aren't the one attempting to change the contract.

Reminder: she did not ask to renegotiate the terms of their marriage in good faith. She was already talking to men on dating apps when she announced that she was polyamorous. This also happened right as she was about to live separately from OP for a couple years.

I find it disingenuous and completely tiresome when people try to use the language of sexual identity as justification for wanting to screw around behind their partners’ backs. I also think it’s fair to assume, based on the fact that she has never been completely forthright with hurthalo about the last affair he knew about, that she probably hasn’t been faithful all these years.

Hurthalo, I suggest you cut your losses. Even if she backs down this time, it’s going to periodically rear his head. I’m also fairly certain, based on the Cheater’s Handbook, that she will eventually use your unwillingness to open the marriage as resentment fodder after your next Dday.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 2:01 PM, Friday, June 24th]

Brother how are you?
Take solace, as in my last post. She was egged on in this EA by her polygamy friend.
Just a manipulative cheater trying to get her thrills met by her polygamy suggestive partner.
Also tell the other wife regardless what your WW has said. Why believe anything she says. Remember cheaters lie to support their actions.
Let her pay you child support!
One day at a time.

I did my homework after dday. I really did take a serious look at poly as a lifestyle. But ultimately he wanted that and I did not, and ne'er the two shall meet. There's just no healthy workaround for that scenario.

This is the crux of the matter and IMHO precisely what we have been suggesting for OP. Evaluate what she wants, evaluate what you want, evaluate what is offered and attainable and then act on that. A very likely outcome is a thanks, but no thanks, let’s accept reality and divorce.

This is the crux of the matter and IMHO precisely what we have been suggesting for OP. Evaluate what she wants, evaluate what you want, evaluate what is offered and attainable and then act on that. A very likely outcome is a thanks, but no thanks, let’s accept reality and divorce.

Oh I get that Bigger. But in my case it took me time and sorting through the BS to get to a point where I could lay down my boundary, even when doing so ended with my divorce. I know 100% that poly ain't for me and even so I still entertained the notion for several months.

Hurthalo, I get not wanting to divorce even with all this shit goin on. I was right where you are. Take your time to figure out what YOU want - not what's best for the marriage or your kids etc, but what is best for YOU. Really look into yourself and decide what you want here. And ultimately if what you want is a monogamous marriage, then stick to that and tell her so. I'm not going to blow smoke at you - if she is set on living a poly life and you're not, you likely will end up divorced. But as scary and sad and horrible as that is, I promise you it is not the worst thing. The worst thing IMHO is staying married to someone who kills your soul every day. I lived in that reality for 9 looooong months after dday and it was awful. I never wanted to get divorced, but in the words of the philosopher Jagger "You can't always get what you want. But if you try sometime you'll find you get what you need." Divorce wasn't what I wanted, but it was absolutely what I needed to get me out of a relationship that was hurting me and not enhancing my life anymore. Hang in there my friend. I promise you'll get through this.

Just wanted to drop in another aside that one of the tenets of polyamory is ethics. If someone's cheating, it ain't polyamory, no matter what they try to dress it up as.

You magnificent people. I know it has been a long time between posts, but I have been insanely busy with work...and remember my work trip to Canada? Yeah, didn't happen because after 2.5years of avoiding the spicy cough, I got COVID three days before I was due to fly out. *shakes fist at uncaring moon*

The initial crisis is now over, and it has given way to me just now quietly seething with rage at the audacity of the situation. My WW has attempted to gloss over it all by stating, 'I was in a really bad place a few months ago mentally' but here are the plain facts:

1. She was messaging her poly workmate EVERY day for months. Nothing damming, but way too over familiar, and at the very least, way too reliant on him, and basically an EA. Calling him babe and ending the odd message with a 'x'. Spare me. There was even one time when she went to a sex shop to buy a toy for us to have fun with...and she messaged him to let him know she was shopping in a sex shop. As you do with a 'totally plutonic' workmate. Fuck me?!

2. Despite her claims that 'the poly thing was likely just a cry for help in the marriage', it doesn't negate the fact that she heavily researched a book on poly called 'Rethinking Affairs', was actively talking to poly people on a dating app, and afore-mentioned workmate just happened to be poly....yeah, and I was born yesterday too.

3. Despite pulling my weight around the house, cooking, cleaning, working fulltime, being an active parent and single parenting while she's been away doing military courses on and off for the past few years; I get rewarded with being lambasted to her friend. The fact her fucking friend knew that this guy was evidently someone of note that she 'still hadn't been given the details about' just pisses me right off. How dare anyone cheerlead a friend's character assassination of a husband when in the next breath they're asking for details of their friend's suspected affair partner? The sheer audacity!

I'm trying to harnass this anger. My wife is still adamant about moving for the big posting in 6 months, but I'll be a monkey's uncle if she thinks I am going to single dad for effectively 2 years while carrying near 99% risk of her reverting to a character flaw she's shown me twice in 10 years. The irony of blaming this latest crisis on feeling 'emotionally disconnected' from me while happily emotionally disconnecting from me for two years. It actually just makes me laugh if it wasn't so hypocritical.

All the advice above on this page, I have read and been appreciative of. Thank you Bigger and Buffer for checking in.

ThisIsSoLonely: I loved your piece in particular. So true. And thank you EllieKMAS for re-iterating it.

I need a glass of wine! Sorry for the rant, ha!

[This message edited by Hurthalo at 3:21 PM, Friday, July 1st]

OP - sounds like you truly have a clear picture about your WW.

After all the necessary venting, what is your process going to look like to make the best decision for you and your kids?

Will your WW be deployed out of the country/on ship, etc. while at this next two year posting, snd if so, how long will these deployment(s) last?

Knowing her, there is a good chance of her cheating if she deploys. One potential solution is to agree to the posting but tell her that as a requirement of you going along with this she needs to take period no notice polygraphs, at a minimum, right after she returns from a deployment.

It sounds like your WW will only respond positively when you show strength in the face of her nonsense. She might have been thinking that she could get away with murder because you already forgave her cheating once before, and you’re a nice guy, you love your kids, so there’s no way you will jeopardize your family even in the face of her stepping out again.

I’ve been around many military families where the wife is in service and the husband is a civilian. To be honest, virtually 100 percent of the females in service cheated on their husbands while deployed.

Wife says, 'well we might be at an impasse.' She then went on to describe how monogamy was a traditional construct that due to advances in feminism - she didn't want to feel trapped in.

Sorry to have a laugh at your situation, but you just have to laugh at the nonsensical audacity of a modern day cheat. IF she didn't want to feel trapped, than why is she still trying to lie to you about wanting to be with you. Also, her intent on moving, with or without you tells you all you need to know.

I suspect that even though you are hoping to save your marriage, her response and intent on moving forward reveals that she feels smothered and is getting squirmy. She has her mind made up, she wants to test those waters, but this inconvenience truth is not something she is going to openly admit to you or your family IC. DO NOT put it past cheaters to lie to their IC. DO NOT.

Hurt, please see the writing on the wall. You can not single hand save your marriage. Without a willing participate on the other side, you're going to end up bitter and the marriage will be very one sided. That is not a healthy marriage, nor is it a marriage one should want to stay in.

I suspect that your wife wants to seek happiness, keeping you as an option of her new life fails. You're not even a plan B, you will just remain as one of many options if you enable her. That is not who you are, it will never jive with you. Let her go, and seek the life that you want to live. One of monogamy and true love. You cannot be a marriage of one personal all in, while she's not. I suspect that if you divorced, she probably wouldn't really care save for some lip service to make her look good. I just don't see her caring all that much. So why should you?

Betrayal, cheating, infidelity......whatever one wishes to call it.....is not about being bi or polyamorous or gay pretending to be hetero or any of these things. The primary issue that results from the pain is unfaithfulness. Can I trust you to be loyal to me in all cases and under all conditions for all time. That is the deal. Being attracted to both sexes or being interested in multiple partners is not the issue. The trauma a BS feels is from the betrayal. If you cheat with someone of the same sex or a different sex is the same level of betrayal. Poly might sound great in some ways. Doing it and thinking it are completely separate issues. Doing it involves betraying trust. Doing it makes one a manipulator of another. What we imagine in our head is one thing, what we do is entirely different.

Hurthalo, it doesn't really matter what justification, rationalization, or explanation your cheating wife has about her "poly" state of mind. What matters is what specific, consistent, deeply committed, daily ongoing, remorsefully driven actions she is taking to win your trust back and healing that which is in her that makes her an unsage intimate partner.

As Sisoon has suggested, if you do not know what you require in an M, you are lost to the ages. If you do know what you require and what you will not accept, then make that clear, insist on it as a preface to potential R and then stay that course. First, you must determine if you have the strength, self determination, and willingness to stay the course, whatever that is, in support of what you require in an M.

You are NOT the reason for her wayward thinking and neither is your M. She has to overtly and with dedication show how far and wide she will go to fix herself and rebuild the trust. Can she do that. All waywards are broken. Particularly in ways of thinking that makes them unsafe as intimate partners. If she does not see this in herself and does not seek out solutions to her unsafeness (usually individual counseling), you have to decide your future with her as she is.

I hope you realize her blaming you for her shitty behavior is the ultimate in wayward behavior.

I hope you are taking good care of yourself, and getting some solid rest, and that you are feeling like you are over the worst of the Rona.

Please try to focus on what's best for your kids and yourself.

I'm trying to harness this anger. My wife is still adamant about moving for the big posting in 6 months, but I'll be a monkey's uncle if she thinks I am going to single dad for effectively 2 years while carrying near 99% risk of her reverting to a character flaw she's shown me twice in 10 years. The irony of blaming this latest crisis on feeling 'emotionally disconnected' from me while happily emotionally disconnecting from me for two years. It actually just makes me laugh if it wasn't so hypocritical.

I cleaned a lot. And listened to a lot of rage-y screaming music (Tool and Linkin Park were particular favorites).

I get it - that 'What-the-ACTUAL-fuck' feeling. I felt a LOT of that in the last months of my marriage too. My favorite was when during an intense discussion, my xwh said "Look I need to date and sleep with other women and you are just gonna have to get on board with that fact." Fucking excuse me sir? You who is jobless, contributing no money to our lives, contributing no effort to our marriage, who only has a house and a car cus your wife bought them for you?? Spoiler alert - I didn't 'get on board' with that bullshit, I instead got on board with putting on my bitch boots and laying down my boundaries. And it was HARD to do that, but I am so very glad I did.

You know the reality here my friend. If she is determined to cheat, there's precious little you can do to stop her doing so. You could be the BEST husband on the planet and it does. not. matter. Her doing this is about HER, not YOU.

What you CAN do is decide what you're willing to deal with and then make your choices accordingly. That suuuuucks being forced into making that kind of a decision, and it isn't fair at all. But once you really own that the only control you ever have is over yourself and what you will or will not allow the game changes.

Despite her claims that 'the poly thing was likely just a cry for help in the marriage

There's a school of thought on men's forums that when a wife asks for an open or poly relationship, your marriage is over.

I suppose there's a chance she'll stay faithful during her military posting... I wouldn't bet a dime on it happening.

Sorry you caught covid, and that your wife has you seething. I think if you stay married to her you're going to have a good deal of anger to eat and deal with for the rest of your marriage. And you get to chase after her like a father trying to keep a randy teenager in line.

Get a divorce. This marriage won't get better. You'll be even more angry 20 years from now if you stay. And it will be even harder to leave.