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Newest Member: InkHulk

Just Found Out :
After 9 years of R, I just got the 'oh I think I'm polyamorous afterall!' talk. At marriage counselling. Out of nowhere.

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OrdinaryDude ( member #55676) posted at 5:34 AM on Friday, May 27th, 2022

contact a D attorney and end this farce.

Yes, this, and gray rock her, don’t discuss anything more than logistics concerning the kids.

Me - BH 50+
Her - WW 50+
Married 30+ years, 2 adult kids
(1989) PA Rug-Swept
(2002) EA Rug-Swept
(2016) EA *Getting Out Of Infidelity*

**Working at Reconciling**

posts: 3413   ·   registered: Oct. 19th, 2016   ·   location: The Big Easy
id 8737328
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morningglory ( member #80236) posted at 1:34 PM on Friday, May 27th, 2022

Is she fucking serious?!

No. She's a lying liar who lies. She is not committed to you. She's clear about the fact that she doesn't even intend to be in the future. Her marriage is hanging in the balance, and her top priority is moving away for two years. That's all you need to know.

I'm sorry this is happening to you, but it's obvious that she is not in love with you and is not committed to a monogamous marriage with you. This has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with her desires. She wants involvement with other men. She wants sex and love with other men. Reflect on that, next time you're debating what to do.

Divorce her, and you will heal and eventually fall in love with someone else who wants the same things you do. As a stable man who wants monogamy, you'll be hot on the dating market. Once you go no contact with your wife and fall out of love with her (this WILL happen, I promise), you'll look back and shake your head at how you allowed her to treat you, and never let it happen again.

posts: 358   ·   registered: Apr. 15th, 2022
id 8737394
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 Hurthalo (original poster member #41782) posted at 2:41 PM on Friday, May 27th, 2022

Divorce her, and you will heal and eventually fall in love with someone else who wants the same things you do. As a stable man who wants monogamy, you'll be hot on the dating market. Once you go no contact with your wife and fall out of love with her (this WILL happen, I promise), you'll look back and shake your head at how you allowed her to treat you, and never let it happen again.

Bloody hell, I love this. I actually do.

Had a fallout tonight, and it turns out her workmate (non involved with, it that's what you're thinking) was also polyamorous (first I heard was tonight) and it turns out his marriage is now falling apart.

Apparently me telling me wife, 'well, imagine my surprise' was a step too far....

posts: 173   ·   registered: Dec. 26th, 2013   ·   location: Australia
id 8737455
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nekonamida ( member #42956) posted at 3:52 PM on Friday, May 27th, 2022

I'm starting to think that your WW wants out but doesn't want to be the bad guy or feels like she needs a big justification to D. And also she'd be fine with not having to deal with the pesky consequences of D and getting to date around too. Whatever she's doing to say/show she still wants you looks performative as a way to get what she wants. You should get a lawyer if you haven't already and end this game that she is playing.

posts: 5138   ·   registered: Mar. 31st, 2014   ·   location: United States
id 8737488
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src9043 ( member #75367) posted at 5:38 PM on Friday, May 27th, 2022

The writing is pretty much on the wall. Given her past history of cheating and her deceptive excuse of using polygamy as a means to do what she wants with other men while keeping you as her safety net and sole care taker of the marriage while she is gone for two years, I suggest the following: Dissolve the marriage and decide upon her return whether the two of you wish to be together. Hopefully, you will have moved on by that time. But it will be your choice. She will not be able to keep you hostage to what is becoming a sham marriage while she gets her kicks.

posts: 636   ·   registered: Sep. 7th, 2020
id 8737503
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Dude67 ( member #75700) posted at 11:12 PM on Friday, May 27th, 2022

This is another one of those cases that unless you stiffen your backbone your WW will continue to abuse you. I agree with the last couple of posters.

MC is not going to be successful in the slightest in your case. Your WW was a cheater, blindsided you at MC, and had been going online behind your back seeking sexual partners in the polyamory world.

Do you actually think you can trust this woman now, or at any time in the future? You’re totally setting yourself up for a life time of continued pain, abuse, and uncertainty. Don’t you think your WW has shown you who she actually is at this point? And let’s say she comes around, after the kids are out of the house do you really think that she’ll gladly ride off into the sunset with you as a loyal, safe, loving partner?

You can effectively co parent with her, you can even have love for her, but to stay married to her is a recipe for disaster. Everyone here seems to see the upcoming train wreck except you I’m afraid.

If you want to save this marriage you have to be willing to lose it. No more being a doormat.
Thus, I firmly believe you need to have a divorce agreement written up and sit her down and present it to her saying that she’s left you no other choice, but you wish it didn’t have to be this way.

One of two things will then happen. She’ll either become a safe partner (via IC) of course or she’ll agree to divorce. You’ll then know your answer either way. You simply can’t be afraid of the outcome.

posts: 444   ·   registered: Oct. 21st, 2020
id 8737554
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 Hurthalo (original poster member #41782) posted at 1:34 PM on Sunday, June 5th, 2022

Thanks for all the posts team. Apologies about the lack of update, I've been trying to keep my head above water in regards to everything; especially in regards to the kids and work - not to mention trying to refrain from screaming at my wife in sheer frustration at any given hour.

You are going to laugh, but not be surprised one iota, at what has transpired in the last week or so. I suspect I know the outcome of this, but I'll post it for posterity anyway - I'm just left shaking my head in disbelief.

Something didn't sit right with me in regards to getting the poly bomb dropped on me at MC, and after she mentioned two weeks ago finding out that her workmate/friend's marriage 'was in the middle of falling apart because their polyamory experiment has failed', something clicked. She also mentioned to me a few days ago that she was catching up with said-workmate becasue he wanted to have a coffee because he was upset about his marriage problems. Since my wife's 2013 affair, I have been extra alert in regards to male workmates with whom boundaries might be blurring. She works in a male-dominated industry, so I maintain a realistic view of interactions. But she knows that not maintaining boundaries are what led to the last affair. Needless to say, in the context of the last few weeks, my spidey sense was now tingling.

I feel bad about this, but the other night I went through her phone. For someone who she has been friends with, there is a distinct lack of messages between them. In fact, there are large multi-month gaps in their messaging history. Red flag 1. My heart starts beating.

Again feeling guilty, and applying the maxim of 'girls tell their friends everything', I have a scan of her conversations with her best friend who lives in another city. It's awful. I am basically an arsehole. My hobbies piss her off. I started putting an office chair together in the lounge room and that pisses her off. I mean we ALL whinge to our friends from time to time about 'you won't believe the silly thing my significant other has done now', but this is almost caustic. I sure as hell NEVER talk about her like this. When I went overseas for work, she wrote: 'I am relieved he has gone to tell you the truth.' I had no idea she felt this way. It gets better. She's still angry that I 'character assassinated' her during the blowup of the 2013 affair. By that she means, 'he told a bunch of people what was going on'. I literally had to tell her parents because she wouldn't stop talking to the AP. I had to tell one or two workmates because I was in tears at my desk. Apparently I'm an arsehole because a few people in our industry might have found out about it accordingly. Despite the affair taking part in the bloody workplace!? Wow.

She did confess to her friend that she felt like dropping the poly bomb was a way to 'set a firecracker off as a call for help'. Hmm.

It gets better though. Let's call her friend 'B'. I find this interesting line of conversation from a few weeks ago. They are talking about a TV show they are watching. I should also add that in Australia, it's a common slang to refer to someone as 'old mate'. Like: 'You spilled your drink? Call old mate over to give you a cloth to clean it up!'. It's a generic term of endearment for someone you don't know. Anyway:

Wife: 'Old mate would love this show.'

B: 'Hurthalo?'

Wife: '...No.' (her use of the ellipsis is pretty telling)

B: 'Oh.'

B: 'There's so many old mates you refer to.' (here she's saying, 'you call everyone old mate! Who are you referring to?')

Wife: 'Most recent old mate.'

B: 'Which you've never entirely divulged deets on. Bu I'm ok with that.'

Wife: 'You know me well enough.'

F$#k. This. Noise. By now I am raging. I screenshot the convo and send it to her. I confront her in person. She shuts down and says, 'I don't want to talk about this. I'm tired.' I finally get an explanation (which I don't believe at this point), apparently she realised that their conversations were starting to cross familiarity boundaries and she quote: 'pulled back from it'. I ask that if 'nothing happened, then why does her friend who lives 300kms away know that this guy is in some way significant?' I get something about 'well she knows that he worked with me and that we had been discussing our marriages.'

I ask why she has evidently been deleting messages between them. 'That's because we were discussing you and my unhappiness, and I know that you reading that would hurt you.' Oh, you mean by all the exactly zero times I've checked your phone? I posited that it was an emotional affair in the workplace - the very same thing that happened last time. She has tried to tell me that 'it's not like that, if it was an affair, he certainly wasn't privy to it.'

She's shrugging this off like it's nothing. Like opening up to someone of the opposite sex THAT YOU ARE FEELING GUILTY ABOUT DOING SO WITH isn't an affair.

I'm so done with this. I'll never find out the truth. I'm actually highly contemplating contacting this clown's wife. I have a deep suspicion that their marriage falling apart probably has more to do with my wife then she would like to admit. I'm livid - but not surprised. It's funny how my wife's research into polyamory seems to have coincided with all this. Bloody hell.

[This message edited by Hurthalo at 2:17 PM, Sunday, June 5th]

posts: 173   ·   registered: Dec. 26th, 2013   ·   location: Australia
id 8738725
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leafields ( member #63517) posted at 1:44 PM on Sunday, June 5th, 2022

So sorry you're hurting. Infidelity is the most painful thing ever.

Don't feel guilty about going through her phone. If it is her personal phone that was bought with marital money, it is a marital asset and belongs to both of you.

I'm the one who filed the D paperwork. I'm sure it was because XWH could say I was the one who wanted the D.

FWIW, contact the OBS and let her know what is going on.

[This message edited by leafields at 10:46 PM, Sunday, June 5th]

BW M 34years, Dday 1: 2/18, Dday 2: 8/19, D final 2/25/21

posts: 1174   ·   registered: Apr. 21st, 2018   ·   location: Washington State
id 8738726
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 Hurthalo (original poster member #41782) posted at 2:07 PM on Sunday, June 5th, 2022

Thanks for the comment leafields. I certianly didn't fel guilty about it noting the clarity has given. Because I sure as hell was getting a watered down version.

FWIW, contact the OBS and let her know what is going on.

This is the problem I face though, how likely is she going to care noting she was in the lifestyle and she's basically getting divorced anyway?

posts: 173   ·   registered: Dec. 26th, 2013   ·   location: Australia
id 8738731
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jb3199 ( member #27673) posted at 2:22 PM on Sunday, June 5th, 2022

I am basically an arsehole. My hobbies piss her off. I started putting an office chair together in the lounge room and that pisses her off. I mean we ALL whinge to our friends from time to time about 'you won't believe the silly thing my significant other has done now', but this is almost caustic.

This is the screaming red flag with flames burning on it. Affair in the works or not, you are being villainized by your wife. She has held, and is building, more resentment towards you. Ask me how this plays out rolleyes

It's hard to give positive marital advice when in a situation like this. You are the bad guy in her eyes. Enforcing your boundaries is the best advice I can suggest, along with NOT making any major life decisions at this point. Have you committed to moving, or are you staying put?

BH-50s
WW-50s
2 boys
Married almost 30yrs.

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary Puckett
D-Day(s): Enough
Accepting that I can/may end this marriage 7/2/14

posts: 4030   ·   registered: Feb. 21st, 2010   ·   location: northeast
id 8738734
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 Hurthalo (original poster member #41782) posted at 2:52 PM on Sunday, June 5th, 2022

It's hard to give positive marital advice when in a situation like this. You are the bad guy in her eyes. Enforcing your boundaries is the best advice I can suggest, along with NOT making any major life decisions at this point. Have you committed to moving, or are you staying put?

She has confessed that she wants to make the marriage work. I take some consolation that she realised that she was headed down a shaky road by opening up to the workmate, but still, there's more red flags than a Chinese Communist Party parade noting what's coming out.

I am headed overseas (Canada!) for work in a week's time for nearly 2 weeks, I will be interested to see what pans out while we're on a 'quasi' enforced break. I'm staying put for the moment, but I have had a bag packed all this week to leg it at a moment's notice. I have certainly been tempted to.

We've agreed to park fighting until our next MC session anyway.

posts: 173   ·   registered: Dec. 26th, 2013   ·   location: Australia
id 8738742
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morningglory ( member #80236) posted at 4:55 PM on Sunday, June 5th, 2022

how likely is she going to care noting she was in the lifestyle and she's basically getting divorced anyway?

People deserve to know the truth about their lives. This wife might have felt bullied into the lifestyle, with her husband pulling a similar trick on her about polyamory the same way your wife did to you. And she might have folded rather than stood up for herself the way you did.

OP, have you ever considered the possibility that your wife got the idea for dropping the polyamory bomb at MC from this man? That's entirely possible and might be one reason she deleted the texts (aside from the probability that she's likely been screwing him). His wife might have been putting a brave face on what was internally a very painful situation to her. And, she might not know why her husband either recently asked her for a divorce, or why he behaved so miserably that she felt she had to ask for a divorce. His EA or PA with your wife is possibly the reason why. She deserves to know. Tell her. How she reacts or how much she cares is up to her. Don't be complicit by withholding the info from her. Btw, seeing if your wife responds to you telling the OBS will indicate how close she is with this man & how invested with him. Don't tell her you're going to do it. Just do it, and see if your wife later brings it up.

here's more red flags than a Chinese Communist Party parade

LMAO. Love that phrase. I might steal that for use in the future.

I'm a woman and will tell you that loving wives/girlfriends DO NOT complain about their husbands/boyfriends the way your wife talked to her friend about you. That isn't normal. The norm is to either praise them highly, express serious concerns with love, or make mild complaints that are tinged with humor. The way your wife talked about you is the way a woman talks about her ex or about a partner she plans to dump. She already is, in a sense dumping you, to move away for 2 years in the midst of your marital breakdown. That is her way of escaping from you to get her freedom, yet still receive the financial and social benefits of being married. I'm curious if her workmate will be moving to her area after he divorces. Maybe not, as that might just be a fling for her, but that relationship is certainly either an EA or PA, as the deleted texts indicate.

If after everything you've learned, you still think there's a chance that she's going to be devoted and monogamous while she's gone for 2 years, then you might want to start reading Mao's Little Red Book and get a red flag to wave yourself. The better option is to raise the white flag, indicating your intentions to stop fighting for this marriage. The war is over. Time to move on.

[This message edited by morningglory at 5:11 PM, Sunday, June 5th]

posts: 358   ·   registered: Apr. 15th, 2022
id 8738752
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ChamomileTea ( Guide #53574) posted at 10:13 PM on Sunday, June 5th, 2022

Not to alarm you, but I'd go through all her shit with a fine-toothed comb. I'd go through her phone, any PC or tablet she might have, online cell bills, banking statements, everything. Typically, by the time a partner is asking to ride, they've already peeled a pony out of the pack. Hopefully, yours will be the exception to the rule.

^^^^That's from my first post to you on page one, and I still think it's the most likely scenario. From the beginning, it hasn't made sense that out of the blue she feels like the marriage needs a "tune up". I just don't think most people will go to that kind of trouble unless there's a specific problem on their minds, which makes the timing of the bomb drop so suspicious. The first appointment after your intake interview and she springs this business about "seeing other people". I would hazard a guess that the sole purpose for her suggestion that you seek counseling was to put this subject in front of you with the gravitas of a therapist present. And even after ALL the back and forth between you since this idea blew up in her face, if you slide back to a couple of weeks ago, she is STILL intent on that particular agenda:

MC asks wife if she feels that even if things got better whether that would 'cancel out' the desire to have a relationship with someone else. Wife says, 'I don't know yet.' WTF. I say, 'Well this isn't something I would ever, ever be comfrtable with. I could have 'fun' with someone else - but never brook an emotional ongoing relationship outside the marriage.' Wife says, 'well we might be at an impasse.' She then went on to describe how monogamy was a traditional consruct that due to advances in feminism - she didn't want to feel trapped in.

I'm not one to run off with a half-baked assumption, but I'll be honest with you, I sure as heck WOULD contact that co-workers wife and ask her if she's noticed anything off. Unfortunately, I think you're on the cusp of another dday. People just don't tend to blow their home dynamic up like this without some shit going on. I hope I'm wrong. I really do. But even if this guy turns out not to be the one, I think the likelihood is quite high that there's already something going on.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 10:13 PM, Sunday, June 5th]

BW: 2004(online EAs),
2014 (multiple PAs)
Married 38 years;
in R with fWH for 7

No one can make you into a liar but you.

posts: 5639   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016   ·   location: U.S.
id 8738789
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 Hurthalo (original poster member #41782) posted at 2:38 AM on Monday, June 6th, 2022

People deserve to know the truth about their lives. This wife might have felt bullied into the lifestyle, with her husband pulling a similar trick on her about polyamory the same way your wife did to you. And she might have folded rather than stood up for herself the way you did.

OP, have you ever considered the possibility that your wife got the idea for dropping the polyamory bomb at MC from this man? That's entirely possible and might be one reason she deleted the texts (aside from the probability that she's likely been screwing him). His wife might have been putting a brave face on what was internally a very painful situation to her. And, she might not know why her husband either recently asked her for a divorce, or why he behaved so miserably that she felt she had to ask for a divorce. His EA or PA with your wife is possibly the reason why. She deserves to know. Tell her. How she reacts or how much she cares is up to her. Don't be complicit by withholding the info from her. Btw, seeing if your wife responds to you telling the OBS will indicate how close she is with this man & how invested with him. Don't tell her you're going to do it. Just do it, and see if your wife later brings it up.

Morningglory, funny you mention this, I posited the same to her. It does seem VERY cozy that the breakup of their marriage coincides with this, and my wife's sudden urge to 'possibly explore her poly side.' My wife said, 'I doubt she'd likely care, she had two to three boyfriends of her own apparently', but we all know the lines cheaters say to minimise/trickle truth. I have no way of contacting her anyway, so I guess I'll never know. I'm still getting the repeated line that NOTHING was going on between them in a romantic sense, but there's a hell of a lot of messages going back and forth over the last 9 months. We had a ball this VERY weekend and she even sent him a pic of her in her ball gown posing. When I asked why she would do this I got, 'he's into sewing (he is) and so I thought he'd want to see the dress.' Yes, of course that's why. rolleyes

LMAO. Love that phrase. I might steal that for use in the future.

I gift it to you! Haha!

I'm curious if her workmate will be moving to her area after he divorces. Maybe not, as that might just be a fling for her, but that relationship is certainly either an EA or PA, as the deleted texts indicate.

He isn't. As far as I can tell this (so far) is all one way. He cares about her as a good friend obviously, she's obviously quote: 'leaned on him far too much emotionally.' It's somewhat ironic that I got accused of not being emotionally available as a reason for this all blowing up, and yet she's seeking solace in a guy whose emotional availability to her is about a quarter of what he has noting he's juggling a wife and two full poly girlfriends.

That's from my first post to you on page one, and I still think it's the most likely scenario. From the beginning, it hasn't made sense that out of the blue she feels like the marriage needs a "tune up". I just don't think most people will go to that kind of trouble unless there's a specific problem on their minds, which makes the timing of the bomb drop so suspicious. The first appointment after your intake interview and she springs this business about "seeing other people". I would hazard a guess that the sole purpose for her suggestion that you seek counseling was to put this subject in front of you with the gravitas of a therapist present.

Exactly. Even with this guy aside, she was still talking to OTHER guys on that other app and 'getting to know them.' That's a whole other kettle of fish. What angers me more is that friends of ours were evidently cheerleading her and at the very least curious about what she was finding/experiencing.

I'm not one to run off with a half-baked assumption, but I'll be honest with you, I sure as heck WOULD contact that co-workers wife and ask her if she's noticed anything off. Unfortunately, I think you're on the cusp of another dday. People just don't tend to blow their home dynamic up like this without some shit going on. I hope I'm wrong. I really do. But even if this guy turns out not to be the one, I think the likelihood is quite high that there's already something going on.

I went through her messaging history with a fine toothed comb last night. I've seen enough to know that it was an EA. I don't believe it was a PA, it doesn't sound like that kind of thing. But I have no doubt he has 'mentored' her in a way into the poly lifestyle and shown her what it could look like. Either way, she felt guilt doing it, and I didn't know about it, so she can call it what she wants, but it is an affair.

I have a individual MC session and a joint one this week, will be interesting to hear what the MC says noting the latest developments. I'm heavily leaning to D. I think I gave her a wakeup call last night, I reminded her of the following realities:

- this EA has likely cost her our marriage,

- it will ultimately cost us 100s of thousands,

- her long awaited posting to that other city is likely now off the table noting custody requirements,

- our 3 daughters when they come of age are going to have some hard questions for her, and likely won't judge her favourably,

- our very comfortable combined income is now going to be reduced to her to a 1/3 to a 1/4 from her POV. And she'll likely be paying me child support if she takes the posting anyway.

I think that was a reality check.

[This message edited by Hurthalo at 2:39 AM, Monday, June 6th]

posts: 173   ·   registered: Dec. 26th, 2013   ·   location: Australia
id 8738805
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morningglory ( member #80236) posted at 3:30 AM on Monday, June 6th, 2022

Stay strong. You'll get through this.

posts: 358   ·   registered: Apr. 15th, 2022
id 8738810
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BluerThanBlue ( member #74855) posted at 3:51 AM on Monday, June 6th, 2022

There is no doubt in my mind that your wife has been cheating on you physically and emotionally. Once affection and respect are gone, she has effectively destroyed any barrier that would prevent her from crossing the line into adultery.

The following maxim is proven true time and time again: when a spouse asks for a non-monogamous relationship out of the blue, it’s because you’re already in one.

BW, age 40
Divorced WH in 2015; now happily remarried to a great guy

I edit my comments a lot for spelling, grammar, typos, etc.

posts: 781   ·   registered: Jul. 13th, 2020
id 8738811
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Bezuidenhout ( new member #79375) posted at 7:01 AM on Monday, June 6th, 2022

I will be utterly shocked if you don't consult with a divorce attorney after everything you found out. When last did you have your blood work done? Usually, men who stay in doormat marriages have low testosterone, and she is undoubtedly treating you like a doormat. She completely degraded you and you still talking about MC?

posts: 22   ·   registered: Sep. 7th, 2021   ·   location: U.S
id 8738816
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SnowToArmPits ( member #50943) posted at 11:23 AM on Monday, June 6th, 2022

Hi OP.

She has confessed that she wants to make the marriage work.

A marriage that 'works' for her, is going to be hell for you. Welcome to hotwife / polyamory / cheating/.... works fine for her.

You're coming over here to Canada for 2 weeks. If you can afford it, hire a PI to keep track of what she's up to. She's going to cheat mate. Sorry.

posts: 452   ·   registered: Dec. 25th, 2015   ·   location: Canada
id 8738818
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Cooley2here ( member #62939) posted at 5:19 PM on Monday, June 6th, 2022

RUN! RUN! RUN! RUN!
Not only is she a cheat she is off the wall! Do not stick around for more pummeling. Get going on a divorce.
Step back. What she is doing is emotionally assaulting you. It is abuse.
You are now trauma bonded to her. It takes a huge pry rod to get away from her but you can, you should, you will.

When things go wrong, don’t go with them. Elvis

posts: 3343   ·   registered: Mar. 5th, 2018   ·   location: US
id 8738866
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Bigger ( Attaché #8354) posted at 6:00 PM on Monday, June 6th, 2022

- it will ultimately cost us 100s of thousands,

Why? I don’t walk upside down and am not familiar with Australian law, but a quick google-search says the average cost of divorce in Australia – if contested and taken through the court-system – is between 50 and 100k Australian Boomerangs or dollars. It’s as low as 1k if done amicably through a mediator and maybe 10-20k for more complex but amicably done using family lawyers and a mediator.

I’m not telling you to divorce. That’s totally your call. But you mention that the comments you made got your wife back to reality. A dose of reality. Only maybe your comment about the cost wasn’t reality…

The COST of divorce is a terrible reason to remain married. There is little love or respect (both core building stones of a marriage) in the sentiment "I would divorce you if I could afford it".

Same with how her daughters might judge her…
I really stress that kids base their future family on their family of origin. Yes – they might despise her, but if they ever get a sense that the only reason you remained married was the cost of divorce… that despise could go both ways parent-wise.
IF YOU WANT TO BE MARRIED CREATE A MARRIAGE TOGETHER. and not some compromise of a least-investment-lost business plan.


Unlike others I don’t doubt your sanity or masculinity but I do encourage you to take all your fears and make them reality. Fears tend to be anxiety or concerns about the unknown. You might FEAR divorce because in your mind you think it will lead to you living in a box by the side of the road. Probably won’t unless you have the assets and asset structure so complex it requires thousands of legal hours. Like stakes in LTD’S, trusts and shares and complex building structures.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 10741   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
id 8738875
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