SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

For some background, my d-day was 4 years ago this past June, you can read more from my profile.

Sex is, and always has been, very important to me. My ideal is once or twice a day. My wife is OK with sex far less frequently. She'd be OK with once a week (or less). The past few years before her most recent affair, her craving for sex has been diminishing to even less than that. During her most recent affair Sept 2018 - June 2019 sex really dried up. I would do whatever I could think of to try to be more romantic and it rarely mattered, she would almost always say no. I was lucky to get it once a month and by then i was so wound up it wouldn't last very long at all, which was completely unsatisfying. It just felt empty... i'd be thinking about sex all day long for weeks and weeks and it'd be over in just a few precious moments. It was awful for me. I felt rejected and unloved and unfulfilled and OMG unsatisfied. I remember thinking "well... what am i going to do, I love her so much... I guess this is my life now" and did my best to endure.

Then i find out my wife was having an affair. I learned that sex with him was once or twice a day! I haven't enjoyed my wife that much since our honeymoon all those years ago. And they did things together she flat out has refused me (toys, acts, positions... you name it). I was crushed, I am still crushed. I can't describe the sheer enormity of my pain... but I guess that most of you have also had to endure that same agony.

Anyway, right after d-day we enjoyed about two years of hysterical bonding, which was magnificent. During that time she never once told me no. And this wasn't all "I need to do this to make him happy", she did quite a bit of initiating. She did most of the initiating to be honest. I know that played a big part of keeping us together and I am grateful.

So... now that hysterical bonding period is over we are back to me most often initiating sex and her sometimes refusing. We have sex far more frequently than before and certainly lots more than during her affair but its no longer as often as I might like.

So this all brings me to my problem. When I initiate and she tells me "no", I can't process it. I am suddenly emotionally right back during her affair, pre-d-day when she would tell me "no" all too often. I feel rejected, unloved, unfilled and unsatisfied. But now on top of that I have the same feeling I had post-d-day with unbearable waves of pain and jealousy and rage... and sadness. Sadness above all things.

Most times I initiate, she will acquiesce but I can tell it's not out of desire for sex, I can tell its out of a desire to keep me from triggering. I don't want her to do that. So I initiate far less often than I would like, I don't want her to feel trapped or god forbid, forced into it. So i wallow in my unfulfilled sadness. Does anyone else feel like this? Can anyone give me advice?
-broken

Perhaps a sex therapist could get you both on the same page.

We've all heard the unmet needs fallacy as a justification for an A. Funny, how your needs are clearly not being met, and you are not the one having an A, but seem to be bending over backwards to accommodate your FWW.

Firstly, I had a friend who was in a sexless M. A sexless M is a M during which there is sex once or less a month. Now, I believe the withholding of sex is a form of abuse. Just like withholding communication or stonewalling. Just imagine that after being told how important it is, you reluctantly agreed to speak to you FWW once a month, and even then, she could tell that you just weren't into the conversation and wanted it over with. You would be categorically labeled as manipulative and abusive.

Now, that being said, I think you should really consider if this is salvageable and what steps might be taken to fix it. IC orca sex therapist might be in order, but the first thing you need to do is clearly communicate to your FWW that this is a non-negotiable need for you. What I mean is, she does not get to dismiss your needs without giving them tgecdue respect you are entitled to. She should not say that you should just get over it, or that's just the way she is.

I hope you both can come to a healthy resolution to this.

I'm sorry I have no advice.
However, I know exactly how you feel.
I have always had a greater sex drive than my wife. Been told she isn't interested throughout the majority of our marriage.
Then after being together over 30 yrs, she decides to give away what I've wanted for 30 yrs.
After her 6 month long venture into adultery, she initiated more often and things were good in the sex department.
That lasted about 2 or 3 yrs, then ot started to dwindle.
Now 6 yrs latter, it feels like it's a chore for her.
One thing I must add; she is going through menopause, so her libido is low.
Maybe your wife is experiencing menopause.
It just sucks that they did what they did at this at this time in our lives. Not that there is ever a good time to do what they did.

How old is your wife? Pre-menopause and menopause did a number on my libido. Not making excuses, but the hormone changes are real… think puberty in reverse. And there’s no blue pill to help us.

Also, who says a sexless marriage is once a month? That may be fine for some couples- don’t apply your label to it.

That said, a couple needs to find a frequency that works for both. And putting an affair in an M when the BS is not feeling satisfied certainly makes it that much tougher. I agree that you working with a sex therapist might be helpful— b/c this is obviously a wrought and important part of your marriage.

How often is she refusing? Is she flat out refusing or is she suggesting an alternate time? Is she refusing once out of every 10 times or once out of every 50?

You two need to COMMUNICATE about this. Get into MC or with a sex therapist and work it out. You deserve to feel loved and cherished, but she needs to able to say no once in a while without it being a big deal.

Mismatched sex drives (aka "unmet needs) are often used as "justification" for WS to cheat. How ironic you are the one being "sex deprived" yet your WW was the one that cheated.

I’m not sure if there are any FOO or CSA in your wife’s history. These can often make people feel as if they are "worthless except for sex" and that is all they have to offer. Both of these are in my WW’s past.

In our situation, my WW felt I only showed her attention/affection when I wanted sex. So she started withholding sex from me. Then when she wasn’t get the affection/attention she felt she deserved, she went out and traded sex for attention/affection/validation from other men. At the time of all of her cheating (multiple APs hover multiple years), I was in my 20s for the majority of this acting out. I turned to pornography and masturbation to "meet my needs" without cheating with an actual person (I know many have issues with porn and it being a "gateway" to cheating with people, but this truly kept me from pursuing that option). I really didn’t think my wife would cheat based on her lack of interest in sex…….

I can empathize with your position. I too experienced TONS of rejection from my wife especially when she was cheating. After D-Day, I quit initiating at all. We also went through the "hysterical bonding" phase but have slacked back off to 1-2 time per week. This is plenty for me especially since my WW killed her "specialness" with all her cheating and I now strictly view her as a physical release (complicated but mostly due to the lack of effort she is putting into R).

IMO, therapy with a MC versed in sexual/intimacy problems or a sex therapist.

Good luck on this terrible journey.

Please don’t take this as unsupportive, you have been through the worst pain imaginable and if you trigger when she refuses she should be willing and eager to give you all the love and support in the world…. But,….

The issue of whether she should go along with sex when she is not in the mood is a much more complicated one. As a psychiatrist I have had these conversations with many individuals, male and female, and with couples. Leaving aside data comparing libido by gender, I can just say anecdotally that it is vastly more common for men to want sex more often than their wives. I realize I am stating the obvious. The difference between expectations is often vast. Another complicating factor is that often women will not want sex with their spouses, but then when they start doing it - even out of obligation - they can end up enjoying it and feeling much more connected to their spouse. Obviously no one should feel coerced by their spouse, but they can be encouraged. My point is there is no right answer and I agree with the suggestion of a sex therapist.

On a personal level - and that is my purpose for being here - personal issues…I can definitely relate to the predicament. We had very infrequent sex before his A. I completely underestimated how rejected that made him feel. This is no excuse for the cruelty of an A and he was not great about communicating how he felt about all this. I would like to echo what someone else said about the wife feeling the husband is much sweeter and more kind when looking for sex. It doesn’t sound like that is you because you sound very devoted, makes me a bit jealous…most of us would love to be the recipient of that. But, for many women I think that’s a big issue. The romance is only there when the husband wants sex. Tender gazes, compliments, declarations of love are only on offer when there is something to be gained. It happened to me again tonight - all of a sudden hubby was all nice and I momentarily felt connected and good until I realized it was just an attempt for sex. I reemphasized my very real headache and he turned out the light and went to bed. Did he feel rejected? Maybe, but 12 months post disclosure of his A with his secretary I really am not that sympathetic. Most nights I am sympathetic I just actually have a bad headache.

Anyway, I hope you can communicate more with your spouse about your wants and needs. Consider the fact that even when she seems to go along just to placate you she may end up really enjoying it. That happens a lot for me. Afterwards I am thinking why was I so resistant?

Here are my thoughts on this situation:

1. You should never have reconciled - 2 affairs with 2 losers and you take her back?!?!?!? She is just not into you and your reconciliation was just an act to continue to be able to get your support.

2. Now she is back to normal and I, for one, would be on high alert - your "wife" is a cheater - pure and simple.

3. She really is not into you and you need to cut and run - this will solve the problem of your sexless life.

How are things going in other areas of reconciliation? Do you feel like she’s all in? Does she demonstrate remorse and show true investment in the relationship? Is she considerate of you and your needs in other areas? Do you feel like the relationship is generally healthy and fulfilling? Do you feel like she’s worked through the character and personal issues that made her turn outside the marriage sexually and emotionally?

If yes to all those questions, this may simply be an issue of sex drives not aligning, especially if she’s experiencing the hormone changes of peri menopause and menopause. That isn’t uncommon in marriage, but it gets extra fraught and painful when it intersects with affair triggers. I don’t see any way forward that doesn’t involve a lot of communication, compassion, and compromise.

It sounds like you have reconciled well outside of this issue, is that correct?

To me, it appears the issue is more that you trigger when turned down and not that she is not trying to meet your needs. People have different sex drives, as you know, and couples have to compromise. She may be having sex more than she needs or wants but it's still less than you want. She has moved the needle in frequency even after the hysterical bonding period. Have you worked on your triggers with a therapist?

Have you discussed other options for when you want sex but she does not? Meaning, no intercourse but other types of play that would still satisfy you. Is she open to those options?

Here is my suggestion-and one the SI community always tells me-TELL HER.

I was in a dead marriage for 4 years. Sex very infrequent. Kissing almost infrequent. Trust at zero. (A was 24 years ago-never really recovered-just rug swept).

Then she reached across the bed.

Fast forward, and we have sex one night because I want to-she just says ok because I want it. Not fulfilling-so I tell her sex to me is physical, emotional, spiritual all wrapped into one. If she wants all of me, sex is the bridge. I told her when she turned (and turns) me down, or does the "let’s get this over with" shit, it wears down my self esteem. I am late 50s , but I still want to be desired-I think most men do.

For many women, the emotional and spiritual component are already on the table prior to sex. Sex is a little more transactional for them. For guys like me, it’s everything because I bring most of the emotional and spiritual with me to the act.

My W really listened. Now, struggles over sex are almost nonexistent. We have sex 3 times a week on average, and it is fulfilling for both.

Also, we just recently did an exercise- I wrote 20 ways I want to be loved. She did the same. It is hard to come up with 20-just do the best you can. I wrote them on a piece of paper and gave them to her. No specific order. Everything from hold my hand to intercourse on my list.

I have her list too. Some things I did for her were not on the list. She did not put-take me out to dinner or buy me jewelry on her list. Instead, it was "help me make dinner " and "work in the yard with me." She also put some bedroom stuff as well

Communicate with her. It’s scary as hell to open up, but worth it. If you need to work through your own shit, get an IC. Guys from our era have a hard time doing this, but it really helps resolve stuff.

I hesitate to comment,because when these kinds of threads pop up,and women comment, many men rush in to tell them they're wrong,our experiences are lies,it HAS TO BE the WW is responding the way she is because she is a cheater..and not a woman.

However..

I'm around her age. The myth that woman become very sexual due to menopause, is bullshit.

Also,certain medications cause a lack of libido. Certain medical conditions, such as thyroid disease, also affect the libido.

Honestly, from what you've written,it sounds like you have a very normal sex life,for your age,and your wife's age.

We all have triggers we have to work through. This is a trigger you need to work on. It doesn't sound like you believe she should have to give you sex everytime. You seem to see that's unrealistic.

Please don't listen to the comments that are about to come. That she should give you sex,on demand,in any way you want,as a penance, for the rest of the marriage. It's been 4 years since dday,and you've reconciled. At some point, husbands need to stop seeing their wives as a cheater,and see them as women..women with genuine hormonal issues. Menopause is hard. Empathy and love,and patience,will help you achieve your goals far more than anger and accusations.

[This message edited by HellFire at 1:52 PM, Wednesday, August 2nd]

I have her list, too. Some things I did for her were not on the list. She did not put-take me out to dinner or buy me jewelry on her list. Instead, it was "help me make dinner " and "work in the yard with me."" She also put some bedroom stuff as well

You will be surprised to know there are many women who want their husbands to just help them in their household chores, lawning the garden, watering the plants, etc. more than expensive dinners and jewelries. One thing I have noticed a lot among women whose sex drive reduces after a certain period of time in marriage is that they are very often stressed out. Household works, parenting and/or job, all of these leave them exhausted and bored at the end of the day. This also kills their sex drive because they are emotionally exhausted and tired to enjoy sex. So, taking away stress from her could be the key to a better sex life.

This could be the case with you since her problem precedes her affairs.

A couple of issues spring to mind:
IMHO your expectations of 1-2 a day are not realistic… Well… not "normal" might be a better phrasing. It’s not abnormal or unrealistic, only it’s not a commonly met need or a common desired or needed frequency. I think a long-term couple with a daily workload might be seeing 1x a week or so. Not saying your requirement is wrong, but it’s maybe like requiring lobster for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Affairs aren’t about the sex per se. This is a common misunderstanding. By the time your wife could have known that sex with OM was so great it had to be done several times a day it’s too late. The infidelity started way before the first sexual encounter. Infidelity IMHO is all about validation and confirmation of some strange illogical needs. Affair partners seldom become AP’s because they have so much to talk about or because they have so much in common – IMHO it’s generally about a man (or woman) making the WS feel wanted and desired – that is then affirmed by having sex. There is a common generalization that like most generalizations has immense caveats but a lot of truth that states that men have affairs for sex and women for validation. I think it’s really simpler than that: Both men and women have affairs for power. That "power" can be displayed by "I can give your sex" and/or "I can have sex with you".
I know it sounds weird – but there really isn’t anything "sensible" about infidelity.

When your WW had sex with OM for the umpth time that day it wasn’t about the fantastic orgasms or anything of that nature, but rather the sense of power and validation.

I can think back to my singe-days after ending my engagement to the woman that cheated on me. For a period of time I would be open to brief ONS encounters with more-or-less any woman that was up to it. Sometimes I would be thinking that this woman was so clearly not my type, not the figure, shape, height, hair-color, character… whatever… that I was looking for, but simply that I could pull her and/or that she could pull me was enough. It’s a bit like fishing where you might cast for one more time despite having no intention of eating what you catch. You just want to catch.

Sex and intimacy change over age, time and development of relationships. I have been faithful to my wife since the day we met. She is the most pleasurable sexual partner I have had in the sense that I really enjoy being with her and being intimate with her. I have no desire whatsoever to have some sexual need, kink or fantasy met elsewhere – even if she was incapable of providing me those services.
However, she’s not the "best" sex, "best" experience or most-sex-in-shortest-time or anything like that. Titles for the various categories – best BJ, loudest O’s, sexiest positions… - are spread between the various partners I have had over my lifetime. Yet I wouldn’t want to change a single thing about my wife.

One of the biggest aphrodisiacs I ever applied to my marriage was about 15 years ago when I realized we were at a sticky place in our relationship. I started to invest time into us being together, and to stop taking our marriage for granted. Time together is not dinner at a fancy restaurant or the opera. Time together could be anything from talking at breakfast, going to the gym at the same time, dividing chores to have more time together, doing a budget and sharing financial goals like vacations, new car etc…
I also took care to talk respectfully about her to others. No longer "the old woman" or the "wifey"… but as Mrs Bigger who has a masters in nursing, fantastic mother, great wife, who her former patients and families of patients stop in the street to thank for the caring she offered… I found that this stance changed the chemistry in our marriage, and the interactions with others outside our marriage. We gained more friends of the marriage rather than individual friends of each other. I think all marriages have toxic friends who aren’t really invested in the marriage succeeding, but side with either partner and will echo and even expand on any negative vibe they get from their married friend.

The above actions led to us bonding a lot more. We eased a lot of stress-inducing factors like chores, scheduling, money and so on. This in turn gave us more time to relax, and more time to relax eventually leads to more energy and commitment to the marriage. Sex included.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 3:17 PM, Wednesday, August 2nd]

Please read and re-read the last paragraph of Hellfire’s post.

*IF* you feel like reconciliation and healing are generally going well, and your marriage is or is becoming a healthy, satisfying relationship, then this trigger around sex is something the two of you will have to be open and honest about and work through together. It doesn’t sound like you’re dealing with a sexless marriage or with someone who doesn’t care about your sexual needs and desires. It sounds like you’re dealing with very normal issues of different sex drives, overlain with very painful and understandable triggers related to her cheating on you.

The assertions that come up on these kinds of threads where posters essentially tell betrayed husbands that their formerly wayward wives should be expected to be their uninhibited, 1000% enthusiastic, *uck any time they want sex dolls for the rest of their lives are so counterproductive, sexist, and unrealistic. Obviously, if you’re married to someone who makes no effort to care about your needs and desires, the marriage is unlikely to work, and some people have core sexual incompatibilities that make a healthy relationship untenable.

But to reconcile, eventually marriage issues have to just become marriage issues, and triggers have to be dealt with as triggers. Triggers around sex are deeply, deeply painful—I know; I still have some related to my husband’s affair. We also sometimes have run if the mill mismatched desires that are just part of a long term relationship and the vicissitudes of life. But it is possible to work through those things with good communication and mutual commitment, and to have a fulfilling sex life despite bumps along the way.

[This message edited by Grieving at 3:31 PM, Wednesday, August 2nd]

Sex is far more important to me than to my husband. He knows this and add on top of his infidelity/lying issues he has made great efforts to work with me.

I think communicating your feelings and needs are important. My husband did not realize how lack of sex can make me feel until I told him because to him sex is more transactional and a chore. Once I was able to explain the importance he was able to work with me and now our sex life is much better.

Some weeks we don't have sex often, and I get sad or in my own head. But since my husband knows this, he and I talk about it. He reassures me and the weekend he tries to make up for the lack of weekday sex.

But to end this, you are not alone and I can feel unwanted/rejected too if sex isn't happening.

Are you prepared to walk away on this issue? One of my requirements for R was that my W desire sex with me and show it. We talked about the requirement, and she signed on, so that part of R was set. You have to talk together. R needs to be a product of both partners' desires; if you don't have essentially the same vision for M, I don't see how R can work well.

So ... have you talked with your W about this? What has she said and done in response?

I agree that the triggers are yours to own and resolve. Maybe 'no' to sex is rejection of you; maybe the 'no' comes because sex is painful for your W. You'll never know unless you raise the issue.

*****

The myth that woman become very sexual due to menopause, is bullshit.

That some women become more sexual after menopause is not made into a myth because some women feel less sexual. Very few things in this world are either-or; in any case, the amount of sexual desire after menopause varies from woman to woman.

Honestly, from what you've written,it sounds like you have a very normal sex life,for your age,and your wife's age.

Normal here means something like 'what most people do'. That's (totally) irrelevant to specific cases. brokenInDenver is entitled to want what he wants, but he's entitled to get what he negotiates.

I have a hard time telling someone they should set 'normal' as a goal. Personally, WRT the things I'm interested in, I want way beyond normal. I'm happy that others want way beyond normal for and from the things they're interested in, too, assuming what they want isn't illegal or unethical.

Joy and connection make life worthwhile, IMO, and they don't usually come from 'normal'.

I believe you misunderstood me,sisoon.

The myth I refer to,is that women turn into horny beasts as soon as they hit a certain age,or hit menopause. The truth is SOME WOMEN do..but SOME WOMEN don't. It sounds as if his wife is in the don't category.

brokenInDenver is entitled to want what he wants,

He is. His wife also shouldn't feel she must have sex either him several days a week,or he's going to be angry with her.

He has stated they had 2 years of HB. That's a long time. Now they still have a lot of sex,just not as often as the last 2 years. He's entitled to want more..but she is also entitled to want less. A conversation should be held,and a compromise reached,in order for them to both be happy.

I also think we shouldn't dismiss that some medications affect libido.

Women should be allowed to say no a few times a week,without worry that their husband will become enraged. All women. Even FWW.

It actually sounds like OP agrees with that,and wants help to work on this particular trigger,because he doesn't want to to feel anger when she says no, he wants to not feel complete rejection and sadness. Instead of telling him his wife should never..or only very rarely..say no(which is unrealistic and ridiculous)..maybe it would be more productive to help him figure i
out how to not see it as a rejection,but simply a wife who just isn't feeling like having sex that day.

[This message edited by HellFire at 4:45 PM, Wednesday, August 2nd]

BrokenInDenver, what did you and your wife do to rebuild your marriage a part from hysterical bonding? What did your wife do outside of the bedroom to to win back your trust and fix the damage that she caused?

Sex can help with reconnecting and healing a marriage, but if you’re relying on it exclusively as the basis reconciliation, it’s like shooting up morphine to cure a broken leg. Sure, you will feel good and the pain will abate temporarily, but you’re not healing the broken bone and will eventually find yourself addicted to the morphine and distressed when you can’t get it.