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Denver,

Take her smothering you with sex for two years away from everything, and then what does reconciliation look like for you Denver? It sounds like this was not her first rodeo and she served you one hell of a triple decker shit sandwich.

How did she show remorse?
Did she accept full accountability for her actions?
What has she done to better herself as a partner for you?

If the sex is what mainly made it work for two years, did R really occur?

Hey BinD,

I just wanted to chime in and offer my sympathy for the problems you're going through. It's hard shit to navigate.

From your original post:

"well... what am i going to do, I love her so much... I guess this is my life now"

And here you are again. Maybe your wife is going through menopause or pre-menopause or pre-pre-menopause. I hope you two are talking about this, but whatever the case, I completely understand your frustrations.

I imagine you feel robbed. You also said that you had a couple of years of hysterical bonding, which you described as "magnificent." Maybe you're feeling now that it wasn't all that. That it was nothing more than a coping mechanism to ease the pain of her adultery. And now you are faced yet again with a low libido partner.

But the choice now is yours. "Acceptance" or bolt. And don't get me wrong about acceptance. I hope you can communicate these issues with her, and more importantly, I hope that she listens and offers her sincerest apologies for her actions. The question for you is...would that be enough?

Sorry for the novel. I just hope you find a path to happiness.

The past few years before her most recent affair, her craving for sex has been diminishing to even less than that. During her most recent affair Sept 2018 - June 2019 sex really dried up. I would do whatever I could think of to try to be more romantic and it rarely mattered, she would almost always say no.

Her craving for sex never diminished. What diminished was her craving for sex with you. I agree two times or even once a day is probably unsustainable in the long term, but with the crap she put you through you are reasonable in demanding multiple times a week. She needs to know that there is no statute of limitations on infidelity. You are justified at any point to point that out to her.

I found it astounding that anyone thinks it's okay to DEMAND sex. What kind of dynamic do you have going on in your marriage that you think it's okay to DEMAND sex from your spouse as some sort of reparation for cheating? I find that disgusting.

Hi wow some really great advice. I would like to reply to some of that now. Firstly and probably most importantly, I don't believe I'm in a sexless marriage. To be honest, I'm pretty sure my wife and I have more sex than most couples my age. I also don't believe my wife is withholding sex as a form of abuse, she's just not like that. Now that I think about it, sometimes she'll use it as a way to bring us closer... so opposite of abuse. Also my wife is absolutely entering peri menopause and I completely understand her lack of desire is probably, at least in part, hormonal. It's just I felt like this before, intensely. As a result a 'no' from her brings a lot of emotional trauma because after all the 'no's she gave me, she gave a lot of 'yes' so often to another(s). Another recurring theme I heard many tell me is that I need to talk about this with her. I agree, I should know better by now I need to talk more. I'm have some trepidation because the last thing I ever what her to hear from me is: "you need to put out more to keep me from triggering". I simply cannot let her feel like that. I believe she would acquiesce and sex would become a chore for her. We will need to discuss in MC i think. Safer to do it there so that I don't give her the wrong message.

78monte... yes you get me completely. You do seem to know exactly how I feel. It helps knowing that my pain isn't special. Maybe that's not exactly what I mean to write... it helps knowing I'm not alone in how I feel. This site helps.

BarelyBreathing: I would never say my marriage is sexless. Not by a long shot. Also, I have always respected my wife's ability and need to say no as often as she needs to. I also don't make it a big deal when she does say 'no'. I don't ever get openly angry or openly show her that I feel rejected and sad, I endure quietly. Which I think goes back to me needing to communicate this (which is exactly your advice).

ImaChump: I agree that sex with my wife is a lot less special now than it was before I knew she was giving it away so cheaply to other men. I can't think on that for long without a massive trigger but yeah, I get it.

Stillconfused2022: I really don't want my wife to go along with sex if she's not in the mood. Well maybe every once in awhile it might be OK because that will happen and I agree with you sometimes she'll 'go along with it' and end up enjoying it and with us being really close. Yes I will communicate more, that is good advice.

Grieving: my wife works hard to quiet my triggers. She is remorseful and has really redoubled her investment in our marriage. We're both of us still working through all this... but she still has her own personal demons. We're both still in IC and MC (to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars since d-day). So yeah... she's working hard.

Trdd: You have it absolutely right that the issue is that I trigger when turned down. Its not really even about the frequency so much, just that I can't personally process hearing 'no' from her. Also, hell yes I'd be open to other types of play if she's not up for sex. I'll bring that one up when we talk.

goingtomakeit: You wrote:

For many women, the emotional and spiritual component are already on the table prior to sex. Sex is a little more transactional for them. For guys like me, it’s everything because I bring most of the emotional and spiritual with me to the act.

I'm the exact same way, sex with my wife means a tremendous amount to me. I'm not just talking about frequency here, sex with my wife is just precious to me. I can't imaging having that kind of connection with anyone else. Which is why her affair was so devastating. I'm learning that sex is more transactional to my wife. Transactional sex is not something I can internalize or identify with really, it simply does not resonate. I get that it exists... I just don't understand it. Anyway... regarding your advice on communicating. Will do.

HellFire: I never heard the myth that women approaching menopause become MORE sexual. i've only ever heard the opposite. But i suppose hormones are hormones and anything is possible. I would never ask for sex on demand. Well... maybe not never. Right after d-day I was pretty bossy in the bedroom but I wasn't emotionally myself back then and she didn't seem to mind my being bossy. These day's I'm more myself and never 'insist' on sex, not once. I don't even like her to acquiesce when she's not in the mood. Its far more... amazing... when she's into it. Anyway, I know I treat my wife the way she wants to be treated, as a woman not a cheater. She gives me that feedback often.

Lurkingsoul12: I do the vast majority of the household chores. Well I don't mop the floor (I leave streaks) and we share cooking responsibilities. Other than that I do all the dishes, clean the house, take care of the pets and do literally all the outside chores (trim trees, mow lawn, fertilize lawn, plant flowers yada yada). I'm not a martyr, its just part of how I'm hardwired and gives me a good deal of satisfaction. While she benefits from my effort, it's only right that I say I do most of the chores for my own self. She appreciates my effort to be sure but my wife's love language is NOT acts of service... sadly. She is more of a Words of Affirmation (WOA) kinda gal... dang. WOA does not come naturally to me but after years of marriage (and MC) I've gotten quite good at it (or so she tells me). Your right that does bring us closer and if I really push her buttons and find super-creative ways to show her I love her it can sometimes lead to sex so you're right.

Greto: I feel like you and I have similar views on what sex means to each of us. Without meaning to generalize, I hadn't expected to hear that same point of view from a woman. That was refreshing. My wife and your husband seem to share similar mindset on sex. I guess people just view sex differently... and the same. You wrote:

Some weeks we don't have sex often, and I get sad or in my own head.

That is exactly how I feel some times .

sisoon: am I prepared to walk away? Nope. well not given where I am now anyway. If sex were to go to zero or near zero and my wife refused to acknowledge that i had unmet nets then probably I would. Well if it came to that I know I would walk. I'm confident it won't get to that point. I'm confident that she won't let it get nearly that far. I agree that I probably do have a normal sex life but to your point, I am not really interested in other people's normal. That was well said.

BluerThanBlue: my wife works hard to repair the damage she's done to our marriage. Its hard to identify everything but one thing does stand out. Our marriage and our life together is now her biggest priority. Its nice to be the center of someone's focus. I just wish we could have got here without her cheating.

I fully agree with everything Hellfire said.

Sisoon said he is entitled to want what he wants. Absolutely true.

So is his wife.

So, it’s compromise (which sounds like what has occurred) or divorce.

Waitedwaytoolong, I don’t think you can blanket state that her desire for sex itself, regardless of partner, hasn’t diminished (but only has with HIM). You can’t know that, as you are not her.

Most marriages have varying degrees of mismatches—in libido, desire for communication, interests and activities, philosophies about childrearing, etc. Some of these mismatches—gasp!— happen over time as life goes on. People change. Personalities change. Life’s stresses affect different people differently. Bodies and hormones change, and affect all sorts of components of the person. I know I’m not making groundbreaking statements here—everyone knows this—and it’s mystifying to me that yet so many people seem to think that infidelity just negates all of the rest of what happens over the course of a normal lifetime.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 11:02 PM, Wednesday, August 2nd]

Denver, I just wanted to say that you seem like a thoughtful, caring person who is dealing with something that is genuinely difficult to deal with. The kinds of rejection we experience when our spouses betray us—them saying yes to another and no to us—is so deeply wounding. It’s no wonder triggers hit us so hard.

I do encourage you again to talk to your wife. There are ways to overcome libido mismatch that don’t involve someone just having sex with their spouse to placate them or check a task off a list. When I’m inclined to say no it’s usually more about fatigue and stress drowning my desire than it is not having desire, and I think that’s the case for a lot of women at my age and stage of life. Once or twice a day probably isn’t realistic—that feels pretty far outside the norm to me in the course of regular workaday life—but there may be things you both can do to prioritize sex more. And there may be things she can do to soften a no and support you through your triggers. But it takes communication.

Good luck to you, friend.

Waitedwaytoolong, I don’t think you can blanket state that her desire for sex itself, regardless of partner, hasn’t diminished (but only has with HIM). You can’t know that, as you are not her.

DF, I don’t disagree with you. I was quoting BID, when he said her desire diminished prior and during her affair. Turns out she had plenty of desire, and plenty of sex. It just wasn’t with her husband. My reference was for her past.

DF:

Waitedwaytoolong, I don’t think you can blanket state that her desire for sex itself, regardless of partner, hasn’t diminished (but only has with HIM). You can’t know that, as you are not her.

Can you tell us your experience during your affair? You stated that you liked the sex with AP as you were partners before your BH. Do YOU match WWTL’s "blanket" statement?

Thanks for clarifying your sitch.

If your problem is the trigger, then it's in you, and you have/are the solution. What you have posted comes down to - IMO - that you feel rejected as a person when your W says 'no' to sex, even though it also looks like she does not reject you. She just rejects sex at that moment.

My metaphor for this is that she says no, and you turn that into a message that goes something like, 'she doesn't love me' in your head. IOW, your problem is your self-talk, at least that's how I understand the process.

If you can't change your self-talk on your own, a good IC can help. Changing self-talk isn't easy, but it provides great return on investment.

I think too many men are focusing on the wrong thing. Op has said she's done the work,the sex is frequent,etc.He has said the problem isn't with her occasionally not being in the mood. The problem is he triggers when that happens, and he wants help in eliminating the trigger.

The solution isn't that his wife should never say no. That's ridiculous.

I really hope you get the help in dealing with this trigger, OP. You sound like a good husband, and she sounds like a good wife.

Hey Denver, nice to see you but sorry you are struggling.

I feel your pain. We have similar timelines, personality traits and bonding styles, but I think my story is a much bigger shit show than yours. I think your WW is trying much harder than my WH, and at least you have the years of expensive therapy to help you sort through the emotions and communication hurdles. I'm white knuckling it here and it sucks. It also sucks to know you can have a love as strong as yours and a spouse who is trying to repair the damage she did to earn you back but still suffer the random and cruel aftershocks of the betrayal so far downstream. It seems we should be out of the woods by now, doesn't it? Haven't we paid our dues to be able to live out our days in happy recovery land with the loves of our lives who broke our hearts? I ask that ironically, because I think it is the root cause of my lingering issues, the trying to love and trust the betrayer part. There is only so much guard I have left to let down, and so many feelings to reshuffle or reprocess or stuff down. It's hard work rebuilding something worth staying for from all the pieces that remain, and damn hard making sense of any of what remains. But here we are.

Sex is so complicated an issue for me, especially now, as we are also past the hysterical bonding phase and trying to find a new normal that works for us both. First, regarding the female perspective - peri and menopause wreaked havoc on my body, my heart, my sleep, my moods and horrifyingly, my female anatomy. It was a grind of symptoms and medications to try and find some stability, and it had a terrible affect on my sex drive, especially after my hysterectomy. Not to be too graphic, but intercourse became so painful I needed cold compresses and had to hide tears afterward. I still wanted/needed that connection and intimacy and would have been open to other ways to achieve that if my WH hadn't been pretending to have low T and no sex drive for years. It was post discovery, in tears at my Dr.s office, after my STD tests, that she prescribed me anti anxiety meds to help me sleep and hormones to help my lady parts find their mojo. Estradiol changed my life, and gave us back the sex life we deserved. So my point is have your lady pay attention to her hormones and don't take any shit from Dr's who refuse to work with her to manage any symptoms. Talk to a room full of 50+ women and you will understand how dramatic the impact of reverse puberty can be, both physically and psychologically. Puberty was so much easier than menopause. I was in perimenopause by 43 and full menopause at 46, total hysterectomy at 52, and didn't get the hormone therapy I needed until I was 58. I was almost crazy from that saga, and I got long term infidelity as the cherry on top.

Regarding the inability to process the no - for me a lot of that is just triggering back to the bucket of rejection an A feels like. I take it personally, I feel insecure, unwanted, undesirable, and I know a lot of that is silly A residual, and not really about me. Sometimes he is tired and just wants to sleep, and I work through feeling unf*ckable by making him wrap himself up in me and telling me he loves me and it helps a little. But I have to work really hard not to think about how the MOW hounded him for sex, how he managed to show up and perform when she needed it, or how he miraculously managed to juggle us both during our false recovery and really hysterical bonding. I have bitterly asked if an email or secret text might get me laid. What's the trigger I need to get his attention when I need it? I think some of it for me is the hurt inner voice asking what about me, what about my unmet needs? It was a hundred little petty frustrations that drove him to another women and led to his secret life, and yet, here I am, frustrated, unmet needs, and where do I turn? Not the internet for casual sex, that's for sure. Usually, I turn to a bottle of wine until I am numb enough to let it go for the night, and we know that is a crap coping mechanism. The big problem for me is that all new situations in this relationship are filtered through the A lens, and I don't know how to change that. It would be a great topic for therapy if I was going to go.

Also as a woman of a certain age, if my WH wanted sex twice a day, I'd be sore and likely have a UTI! We have our ebbs and flows, and I don't know what's normal, but we have days and nights that are full of intimacy, and we can go weeks without it, but the cuddles and the closeness stay constant. That helps with my feeling rejected when I try to initiate without success.
You may be in a surge of high T right now that is driving your sex drive, or you may still be in the lingering phases of HB or marking your territory, or maybe, like me, you just need to feel the naked vulnerable restorative intimacy that only sex can bring. But there are so many emotional landmines to navigate there. Sometimes it is the loving afterglow of sex that wrecks me, because those intense feelings of love and connection I feel are one sided. He's mostly just having sex, and it doesn't mean to him what it means to me and that reality, one I never got until now, will bring me to tears if I can't push those thoughts away fast enough.

I'm still learning as a BS to say no thanks if I'm not in the mood, which triggers a whole other bucket of emotional crap, like what if I don't put out and he needs another woman behind my back again, and trust me, I've had a lot of sex I really was not in the mood for, but i did it for him, because I put his needs above my own, but that ship has sailed. It took me a while to say not tonight, I'm not up for it without feeling fear because sex became the currency of our marriage, the service he expected. I have worked through all that, and I don't have sex unless I want it too now, and he is accepting of that. My reasons why, btw, can be because I had a bitter thought about his A or the MOW, or I am a little sad about life stuff, or tired, or my back/neck hurts or I have a stomach ache, or am distracted by things I need to do or didn't get done.... I have to be in the right head space for my body to want to play and it's complicated. It is something we never talked about pre-discovery, but I have no issues talking about any of it now. I think it's really important we understand what each of us is thinking and feeling, no more simmering issues or unmet expectations. I do not have time to waste for that.

I think a good topic of conversation for you and your wife might involve discussing the why, in the moment, when you want sex and she does not. There are so many other reasons besides "she's not that into you" that may be the root cause. I have learned that my WH struggled at times with his sex drive with his MOW, even secretly trying viagra to boost his A performance, so I know it was not just about him wanting sex but not sex with me, but more about him not able to enjoy or get riled up for sex with either of us.

Is she tired? Does she feel well? Does she feel like her lady parts need a rest? Is she sad or angry with you? maybe exploring the reasons, as well as telling her the reasons you want her, especially the need to express your love for her - maybe that will bring you closer and help with that empty feeling of rejection. My guess is it's not about you, or her not wanting you as much as it is just normal sex drive ebbs and flows. I hope you find a happy compromise that brings you closer.

Best to you, I wish you all the luck and happiness you deserve moving through this new version of your marriage. I'm pulling for you because I'm pulling for us too, and I like to think that there is a way through that feels good enough for this to be worth working so hard for. We both keep coming back to the baseline assumption that we love each other enough, we want each other enough and we have invested so much in each other that together seems the only logical path forward. Looks good on paper.
Hang in there. Hope you find the right balance in the bedroom that works for you both and this becomes just another thing you have worked through together.

Nexther,

I haven’t had sex—with anyone—in over 4 years. If sex were so important to me, and I were DTF with just anyone, or at least anyone who is not my H, I guess I would have cheated again.

But, no, that is not and will not be the plan.

Sorry to the original poster for the t/j.

My husband could have written this. In fact I had to read this a couple of times to convince myself you aren’t him.

I am in perimenopause now. My body is almost foreign to me right now. I am hoping to get hormonal therapy. We still have sex more than most couples, but we have had these conversations.

Triggers are wiring. It takes time to rewire something. Here are a few things we are doing that are seeming to help:

More frequent bids of affection and taking a walk most days and we talk. Extra connection does help me some on the desire front. And my genuine initiating more affection helps him feel connection more often too.

He now understands due to hormonal fluctuations sometimes I am not going to "get there". So I communicate that I want to feel close or that it feels good, but he knows not to keep it going on forever trying to make me achieve it on those days. Long drawn out sex where I am then unsuccessful in getting there doesn’t make me enthusiastic to turn around and do it the next day.

There are way better and more effective ways of initiating too. I have had to get specific about that aspect because of my own triggers ( he had an affair too) but I think this is often a thing, it existed before without triggers.

In terms of triggers, you have to start replacing self talk. My husband used to call it rejection too. It’s hard for me to think he feels rejected when we have sex 3-4 times a week. I am affectionate with him daily, I speak kindly and candidly to him, I am an attentive and loving partner.

Everyone assigns value to things, and the value you place has a lot to do with what you feel you lost. I think it causes you to focus on lack. Anytime we focus on lack it’s all we see. So remind yourself of the abundance in your relationship. Gratitude over the good. Science shows it takes 21 days to rewire your brain with daily gratitude practice.

I wouldn’t be saying this to a new bs, or one who is married to a ws who hasn’t worked on themselves. It sounds like you have something to work with here, so try to work on your focus for a while. I know being four years out seems like an eternity, but it’s not uncommon to still have struggles at this point. We are six years out and just worked through a lot of this in the last short while. Of course some of that is timing of perimenopause as to how it hit later for us. Good luck

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:16 AM, Friday, August 4th]

I haven't had sex since last year, Before I used to get angry when he would not initiate sex for months even then he acted like I was pressuring him. I'm not going to pressure my husband to have sex with me, Now I really don't give a fuck, so I'll be leaving soon or throwing him out, there's a limited amount of shit sandwich I'm willing to eat, I want to keep what little self respect I have left.

[This message edited by inmisery1 at 4:15 AM, Saturday, August 5th]