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Short version of the background: WW had a physical affair for 6-8 months, continued emotional affair until D-Day1, D-Day2 about a month later when I found out she went back to AP.

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On Wednesday we had set aside time to talk about an upcoming vacation but instead of having that conversation WW said she wants to try to reconcile and do couples counseling. Tuesday had been our consultation with an attorney-mediator and apparently the reality of the situation really hit her after that. Literally a week earlier I had told her that I had given up hope that she could or would dedicate the effort that our family deserves to healing our relationship and now this.

I think that staying together would be the best thing for our family but I don't know how to tell if this is sincere.

Points Against Reconciliation
- Two days earlier she said she loved AP.
- She's lied so much in the last year that it's difficult to trust anything she says.
- She didn't break off the affair before talking to me about reconciliation. This one is a little weak to me because in her shoes, especially since she knew I had given up hope that she would actually be able to try to reconcile, I might have left open the fallback position, too. But if she had done it that way I would have been much more certain of her sincerity.
- The timing of it makes me worry that she's afraid of the stresses of divorce. Wanting to avoid divorce isn't really the same thing as wanting to be married.
- I don't think she will tolerate electronic transparency unless CC convinces her to do it. She says it gives her panic attacks and flashbacks to being stalked by a man that sexually assaulted her as a young teen
- One of my daughter's friend's father recently wrapped up his divorce and I opened up a little to him about what was going on. When I told him about this offer to try to reconcile he warned me that his exwife had done similar things to delay divorce so that she could try to collect or manufacture evidence so that she could get a better result in the divorce. Now, bear in mind that he eventually won full custody after getting a forensic psychologist to diagnose his exwife with a slew of things from the DSM so that might not apply here.

Points For Reconciliation
+ She is in IC and it does seem to be helping.
+ The same day she said she loved AP she also said she wasn't sure that she could ever introduce our daughter to him. Apparently AP is kind of crude and not super tolerant of alternative lifestyles. He used the word "faggot" in a joke (it wasn't even that funny, I asked). Our daughter is gay and has friends that are gay, trans, or non-binary. I brought up limerence. She was aware of the term and maybe it finally resonated with her. At the very least, I could tell that it rang some mental alarm bells for her when she said out loud how inappropriate the relationship was for her actual reality rather than as something separate and hidden.
+ It would be an unmitigated good thing for our daughter to live in a happy, healthy two parent home. This is especially true given our daughter's own struggles with depression and anxiety.
+ When it comes right down to it, I think I know the major factors that contributed to the degradation of our marriage and the affair. Her issues with shame and poor coping mechanisms. My stubbornness and difficulty understanding my own feelings and anxieties. Both our poor communication skills. This is all very fixable stuff if we want to fix it.

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Thoughts? Questions I could ask to better gauge her sincerity or capability to reconcile?

If you have to go to therapy, counseling, or read a book to feel remorse, change, etc well you have your answer

Based on the points you listed I would recommend to go for divorce.

Your pro reconciliation points are very shaky.

1. I don't see from your posts that IC has been a help to her. The fact that her IC called electronic transparency as outrageous strengthen my point.

2.

The same day she said she loved AP she also said she wasn't sure that she could ever introduce our daughter to him

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This can change any day. Once she moves in with her AP she will change her mind immediately and introduce her daughter to her AP. Another thing to point out is that she is basically choosing her AP over her daughter. She knows her AP's stand on homosexuality can affect her daughter negatively and it will also affect her own relation with her daughter. And, yet, she is choosing her AP without the care for you and your daughter. If you were in a position where your relation with your potential romantic partner would affect your child and your child's relation with you, then would you still go for that romantic partner?

3. Staying in the marriage just to avoid messy divorce or financial discomfort is not reconciliation. It will be a living nightmare. Your daughter won't be safe in such toxic environment. She can do well if atleast one parent can provide her the required love, stability and safety.

4. Thats blameshifting. Resolving your inner issues will create a better marriage but that works only if your wife is out of infidelity and is totally committed to you. She is still in affair and not committed to you. You know it. So, playing good husband won't work.

Continue with your divorce. If by miracle your wife becomes the model remorse WW and wins you back during the process of divorce then you can end the proceedings and start the reconciliation process.

Her sudden change of heart needs to be investigated. Don't commit to R until until you solve this mystery.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 5:39 AM, Friday, June 16th]

I am going to talk to you about you, not her. Feel free to ignore every word, but just know that many of these same things were said to me many years ago.

What should you do to heal yourself during this time of limbo?

1. Live each day for yourself, not your WW. Pre-reconciliation is a time for reset. The BS frequently needs to learn the emotional benefits of being selfish.

2. Learn to stop thinking about, analyzing, planning, fixing the WW or the M. Force yourself to stop this "hobby" of focusing on the R and trying to understand/fix. View the topic as off limits, although that will be very hard for you. Do it anyway.

3. Go to IC. Journal. Spend more time figuring out your own needs, fears, thoughts, motivations in life. Get to know yourself better.

4. Learn to self-soothe. Learn to be comfortable in your discomfort. Learn to let go of the outcome. Keep your focus on today. Mindfulness. We all get today, and there is no point in thinking further. Enjoy today. That is soothing if you try.

5. Pursue hobbies, friends, extended family. Enjoy people outside of the M. Enjoy yourself.

6. Detach from the M until the M seems safe. This requires months, not days or weeks. What would feel safe? Normal markers that make us feel safe when dating: the WW is considerate, transparent, spending time at home (not pursuing an active social life elsewhere), attentive toward you and the family, empathetic, making obvious changes, open, not defensive, and always upfront and honest. This happens without asking for it because you are not EVER focused on the M; you are focused on yourself. She is simply stepping up regardless.

As you are doing all of this and living life and going with the flow, you will have the time and perspective to re-evaluate this person and the M. If you like what you see in several months time, then you can talk about re-establishing yourself as a married couple. Maybe that would be a good time for MC. But during this re-set period, you both need to learn to value you. Because she has been the person of value to both of you for far too long, and your relationship is lopsided and unhealthy.

Until she has proven herself, how can you ever announce an intent to jump back into the M? You can't. The best you should offer is "we'll have to see."

I hope that time will do you both a favor. I am rooting for her to become a generous person and for you to start valuing yourself. My IC once said I needed to "get out of the way" to see what my H was made of. Exactly. Your WW cannot step up unless you drop the reins and step back. Good luck!

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 6:26 PM, Thursday, June 15th]

I think you have received some good advice in prior posts.

It is HARD to know whether to D or R based on the affair and the aftermath. However given your experience I think it would be very challenging to trust anything your wife says.

I would focus 100% on her behavior.

I would question WHY all of a sudden she wants to R. Did the AP dump her or indicate he’s not interested in a "relationship" or some other reason relating to the AP to cause her to "reconsider"?

I would be very careful here and proceed accordingly. Protect yourself until you are sure she’s in this for the right reasons.

Actions, actions, actions! Watch her actions not her words. I second everything the1stwife said. Always value yourself. Good luck.

Bob

This is not how you rebuild (you should know, being a builder )

If she truly wants a relationship with you, cuz she loves you and can’t bear to not be your partner, which her actions say otherwise, then she would be doing much more than she is and has been.

First of all, let me be clear, with all she has done to destroy your relationship, you should divorce. Even if someday you might want to start something new with her, if she’s done the real work to fix what is broken in her, you should divorce. This marriage, I am sorry to say, is toast.

She has cheated and lied and cheated some more and lied some more. She has broken every vow that she made on your wedding day. There is really nothing here to build on. I read your list. Nothing you say in support of R is compelling to me.

Ok, all that said, if you are still interested in trying to reconcile, let’s discuss that. Do you really understand what that means if it is a true attempt at reconciliation?

Let me start with my viewpoint of what it does not mean:

- just because she says she wants it doesn’t mean she gets to come back and things go back to the way they were during the affair

- she doesn’t get to "try you out" while keeping her AP on hold in case her half assed attempt at rebuilding or more likely, rug sweeping, fails with you

- she doesn’t get to come back and give lip service on doing any work on herself or helping you heal, with not really doing anything

- she doesn’t get to stay non-transparent with her communications and say "trust me"

Honestly, to me it sounds the above is exactly what she is asking for. She needs to prove it’s not.

I think it’s best you effectively communicate what you expect and then move on til you see it in her actions. If it were me, this is what I’d say, something to the effect of:

You say you want to work on reconciliation with me. I’m not sure you even understand what that means. But giving the benefit of the doubt, let me be very clear on what I expect of someone who is so desperate to get back with me because she loves me and can’t bear to be without me, and not just for financial security or other more practical reasons.

First of all, you will never speak to your AP ever again, the rest of your life. He’s gone. He’s out of our lives forever.

Second you work in counseling for the next 2-3 years or more to understand and fix what was broken in you to think that having an affair and hurting terribly the man you vowed to love honor and protect was the right way to work on issues in your marriage.

Third you will get the AP out of your heart and convince me you see him as the piece of shit he was to engage w a married woman. This will take a long time to convince me that you no longer see him as your knight in shining armor.

Fourth, transparency of devices. This will be forever. You are no longer trustworthy. I understand your issues with past trauma on this. That was not me. If you can’t get past this, we have nothing more to discuss. It’s a must have for me.

You treat me 10 times, no 100 times better than you ever did your AP. You must show me that I am more important to you than he ever was. It’s for you to figure out how to do that.

Last hint I’ll give you is that in one week you present me with a written rebuilding and healing plan. Do the research and self introspection necessary to build such a plan. We will review your first draft in a week. I’m sure it will be insufficient but we’ll use it as a starting point.

I want you to know. It will probably take 3-5 years of concerted efforts on your part (and mine of course) for me to be willing yo completely back into my heart and build something new and different with you. Honestly I dont think you have it in you to make it happen. But I’m willing to give you a chance to try and prove me wrong.

Also, this does not mean we are putting the divorce on hold. At the same time we need to get that to a point that it can be executed if we realize reconciliation won’t be possible. Doing this is Showing me you care about me and making me feel secure by working with me to not delay the ending of the marriage your choices destroyed.

This effort of possible rebuilding and healing is for you yo lead, not me. So I’m not going to sit here and push you yo do what you said. You either put your money where your mouth is, or you don’t. I’ll be watching your actions but not waiting around holding my breath, and the first time you slip, but reaching out yo your AP again or doing something g that proves you are still a cheating woman, well only communicate thru attorneys at that point. "

That’s it Bob. Say it, or write it, and then move on with the D process until you hear something from her that proves she’s all in. By taking this approach you put it on her to make it happen Without waiting around or going into limbo until she does. Say it, and the. Continue down the D path.

If she means it you’ll know it. Until then, assume she doesn’t.

Forget emotion and the kids for a minute. Deep down, do you find her to be a trustworthy person? Has she always been trustworthy?

How would you rate her treatment of you before, during, and after her A? Do you see yourself happy in 5, 10, 20 years down the road with her, no kids in the picture, living an honest marriage, in retirement, with little to no trust issues?

In a month from now, she tells you she was going out of town to visit family/friends, or on a girls trip, would you be completely confident that she wouldn’t cheat? If you were away for a week, the same?

Up until the mediator visit, how were you treated? Do continually misbehaving children usually change their behavior a week prior to asking for a big present?

What work is she doing to become a safe partner? So far, very, very little.

She's giving crumbs,and you're responding as if she has found remorse,and is doing all she can. She's not. At.All.

And...really...ok,so this particular man is horrible. She didn't cheat because of who he is. She cheated because of who SHE is. So if she doesn't do the hard work,she will cheat again,and the next guy may be fine with gay people...what then?

Stop the MC. Most aren't capable of handling a marriage after infidelity. A bad mc,with an unremorseful WS, and you are looking at more pain.

Sit back and watch her actions. There is an excellent thread in the R.forum,asking what the work looks like. Read OwningItNow's first post. It described exactly what a ws has to do,in order to have a successful reconciliation. Is she doing any of it?

[This message edited by HellFire at 8:55 PM, Thursday, June 15th]

She didn't break off the affair before talking to me about reconciliation.

What more do you need to know? This is not remorse. It sounds like the divorce process and single motherhood/future with her older AP who is doing his best in their own personal race to the bottom competition ain’t looking so hot.

I’d tell her that the divorce is still on but she has until it’s over to convince you to reconcile. With her actions, not with the completely worthless things that have been falling out of her mouth for the better part of a year.

Gently, I'd continue to get your ducks in a row before she beats you to the punch.

Right now I would not trust a word out of her mouth.

Continue with your divorce. If by miracle your wife becomes the model remorse WW and wins you back during the process of divorce then you can end the proceedings and start the reconciliation process.

^^This. Up until this point, none of her actions have shown she truly loves you and wants to do everything she can to save the marriage. I think she's scared of the change in her life.

Bob, you've been warned and advised to the T. Your WW is not only not a good partner, she has a whole mountain of issues. You need to wake up to the reality that she is manipulative, and you can just be plan B. Stop being her plan B, and be your own plan A. Start loving yourself, and let her go. You now have a chance to restart, take that chance and opportunity that was forced upon you and improve your life without the WW. Its her lost. She fucked up, not you. Don't be her plan B.

Bob, DO NOT FALL FOR THIS. You deserve more than just being her convenient plan B.

happy, healthy two parent home

Are you sure that this will be true?

I understand what you are feeling, I am/maybe was in the same boat. Any Hope ,any crumb that our WS’s throw at us we are willing to pick up because of how much we want to save,preserve, heal the marriage, I am not going to judge you for it. It’s ironic that the betrayed person not only deals with the trauma of betrayal but in most cases shoulders the responsibility and burden of saving the relationship.

Your WS is very unstable and unsure about her willingness to repair your marriage. She would have galloped out of your marriage if the AP was a sophisticated progressive tolerant man with a mouth filter. He’s good enough to fall in love, worth destroying a marriage and family but not classy enough to be a visible permanent part of her life. I don’t hear a "Bob the builder is the love of my life and I cannot imagine living without him , hence I want to stay married".

Keep that in mind before you make any decisions. You really do not want to drag this like a piece of flavorless chewing gum. What if she changes her mind again? You need to heal, make sure your daughter heals, move on and find some one who thinks Bob is the next best thing since sliced bread !

Good luck Bob !

I'm a mom of a gay kid. She came out 3 years ago. I've been married to my husband for 22 years(today). If he had been intolerant, or hateful about it,I would have divorced him over it. Have an affair, we'll deal. Say derogatory slurs that are aimed at people like my child? Hard stop.

But your wife loves him. Sure maybe she is realizing an actual relationship with him wouldn't work out. But not because she doesn't love him. She continued to love him,knowing he is a part of society that causes pain,and difficulty, for people like her child.

You say you love her. Is it possible you love who you thought she was?

Let's get this sorted here. Your WW is not only playing you for a fiddle, but on top of that, she loves a man who hates people like your own daughter! And here you are trying to R! @BobTheBuilder, I edited this a few times to tone it down here, but your threads have me burning with anger. Your WW put your daughter at risk with her affair, yet you won't wake up at even YOUR OWN CHILD'S safety.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 12:28 AM, Friday, June 16th]

She is not thinking about you, your Daughter, or the marriage. She is a selfish WW trying to cover her ass with plan B while she decides what to do. Stop dabbling in sincerity and tell her "Hell No!!!". Until she takes you seriously she is going to continue to jerk you around.

The advice I'm giving you comes from my own experience.

happy, healthy two parent home

You don't have a happy or healthy two parent home. By staying in an unhappy, unhealthy home, what are you demonstrating to your child? It's ok to suffer abuse just to stay together? Do you want to model to your child that it's ok to be in an abusive relationship just to stay together?

Also, you may want to look up sunk cost fallacy.

With all due respect, please keep in mind that you're asking a group of people that have BTDT (been there, done that), and while we are a biased group (we're all scarred by infidelity), we're not emotionally entangled in your relationship with your WW.

Keep moving towards D. If your WW was actually a good candidate for R, she would be fighting tooth and nail to work on herself and bending over backwards to be a candidate for R, with no expectations.

Work on a fair separation or divorce agreement. If she's really genuinely remorseful, she'll agree to your terms. You can always decide to continue living together and being in a relationship, but if you find out any reason why she's still lying or cheating, you can just walk away (or kick her out?).

You summed it up best when you said:

Wanting to avoid divorce isn't really the same thing as wanting to be married.

PLEASE consider the fact that we have all been through this before and we're trying to save you (and your family), without putting you through a prolonged, painful false R.

Bob, Your W isn't a good candidate for R until and unless she takes full responsibility for cheating. She needs to accept the she alone fucked up. She has patterns of thoughts and feelings that enabled her A. She needs to replace those thoughts and feelings with ones that make her a good partner. You'll know if she's possibly done so after 2-ish years of consistent new behavior. That's just showing that she might be a good candidate for R; it takes more than 2 years for most of us to R.

CC/MC? It's too early. She has to do some rebuilding of herself before she can meaningfully participate in rebuilding your M. Her request for CC ... I suspect she still thinks you're the reason she cheated. You're not. She cheated for her own reasons alone.

*****

If you have to go to therapy, counseling, or read a book to feel remorse, change, etc well you have your answer

40kspacemarine, What answer is that? Have you actually read the many successful R stories here? Have you analyzed how they're different from the ones that end in D?

You're still furious about an A that ended how long ago? And you use your fury to attack all sorts of people, not just your W, if you express any anger towards your W.

You're not healing. IC may be able to help you, especially if you start by finding a good IC, and you tell them what you want to change about yourself.

You're hurting, and you're going around in circles hurting more and more. You can use help ... and syet you show contempt for those who might be able to help you. That looks pretty much self-defeating to me.

I don't write the above as a staff member. I write is an old man who has a lot of smarts and a lot of experience and who has put his smarts and experience together to come up with some solutions.

My strongest reco is to find a good IC, tell them that you're furious, that your fury is ruining your life and clouding your judgement, and that you'd like help to stop being furious. That'll give you a choice between giving up your fury and keeping. Right now, you have (given yourself) no choice.

You deserve better treatment from yourself.