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Too many doctors in the house

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 movingonward (original poster new member #78412) posted at 4:22 AM on Wednesday, June 22nd, 2022

Look at his post history. He does it again and again. Very misogynist. That's not a medical label, so I can say that one lol.


You seem to be triggered by everything I say. Maybe some self reflection is necessary?

posts: 15   ·   registered: Mar. 1st, 2021
id 8741343
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ChamomileTea ( Guide #53574) posted at 4:41 AM on Wednesday, June 22nd, 2022

Everyone who's experienced infidelity in their life has something to offer. We might not always agree with it, but ours is a unique perspective which people who haven't been in our shoes can never fully understand. So yeah, you don't agree with those definitions and that's okay. It takes nothing away from other members for you to say so on a given thread. Perhaps what might be more effective for you would be to comment directly to the OP of the whatever thread you're on and not get bogged down in talking about other people's posts. I think most people are smart enough to sort the wheat from the chaff, so if you think something is chaff, why not go ahead and offer some wheat and leave it at that?

Personally, I think narcs are probably way under-diagnosed. I think gaslighting is a fairly typical feature when we're dealing with an adulterer, and I think there are a lot of toxic people out there who will take advantage of us if we're not paying attention to our boundaries. It's no skin off my nose if you don't agree with that.

BW: 2004(online EAs),
2014 (multiple PAs)
Married 38 years;
in R with fWH for 7

No one can make you into a liar but you.

posts: 5637   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016   ·   location: U.S.
id 8741344
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Bigger ( Attaché #8354) posted at 1:39 PM on Wednesday, June 22nd, 2022

Movingforward

Those that have been on this site for some time have possibly seen it all. Well… at least seen enough to recognize patterns. Who knows – maybe if we could somehow formalize our experience and create tests to confirm what we know we could even create accepted labels for all sorts of recognized behaviors.

Including some traits I think you are showing…

Of your 14 posts in just over a year 10 are on two threads where you posted a provocative POV and stirred the pot. So only four are about YOU and YOUR story. Now – I am not saying what you posted was wrong but maybe could have been posted in a more explanatory manner.
That leads to others responding in a provocative manner – very often dancing very close or even passing the guidelines we want to stick to. This in turn leads to more provocative answers and even heads the conversation down tired paths of women versus men or r versus d or whatever. Paths that really only alienate us from the goal of this site.

You have not shared your story except in bits and pieces. I assume your partner cheated simply because this is an infidelity site, but from your relatively few past posts I think you feel you got the short stick in divorce and custody.
Those are assumptions because you don’t share.


However… You do fit a mold. We have had angry divorced dads who think the "system" screwed them post on this site. Could even be the second largest group of divorced people that post on infidelity sites, with the largest group probably being angry women that are adamant that the "system" screwed them in divorce.

We have had angry male members that insist all women are [place negative word or trait here]. It’s a large group too, and often these men also think they got or will get screwed in divorce. This group is nearly as large, but more vocal, than the group of women that think all men are SOB’s that will have sex with anything that moves.

One of the guidelines is to avoid generalizations, and this is possibly one of the most common breach made. Generally this guideline keeps the mods the busiest…


I guess if our infidelity-dealing-experience were formalized so we had fancy titles like Bigger MOI (Master of Infidelity) we could give formal titles to all these groups, and then argue if a new poster called someone out for being a misandryist generalizer that they were not using the correct definition – that the person is a wogabooble and not a wogadiddle – and that the poster didn’t really have the experience or credentials to define between the two.
Heaven knows we do not want the term wogabooble misused or overused! (we even might not want that term used at all!)


Fortunately that’s not the goal of SI. Not that SI has a formal goal except what’s defined on the Welcome page. I think it can be beneficial for all of us to refer to that page and the guidelines every now and then. The goal is HEALING and SURVIVING and doing so by sharing respectfully on this site.

I think you could greatly assist your own healing by sharing your story on a separate thread and listing what is making you so angry. That angry that you feel a need to poke at people on a site that’s based on healing. I don’t think the poking is intentional, but this is a site full of hurt people where hurt people post so even a badly worded posting can be seen as a provocation.

--

I will also say that your original post on this thread does have some merit. There is a danger that people misuse definable terms and with that the actions of the person defined that way become "understandable". I guess we can all agree that infidelity is selfish, in the way that selfish is defined as self-centered. We can also agree that a narcissist is self-centered. Therefore infidelity does show some behaviors that are in common to narcissism and I guess a narcissist person would be more likely to cheat than a "normal" person.
However – IMHO – the real problem is when we place the label squarely on the WS and therefore expect the result to reflect that. Like when we describe someone’s behaviors as narcissistic, therefore defining them as narcissists and therefore planting what is considered an incurable (but treatable/manageable) label on them.

To use a comparison: If a cop caught you with your weener out having a piss on a county-road you could be charged with what is by definition a sexual offence. Would we be correct in defining you as a sexual offender? Would that place you in the same category as the serial-rapist or the guy that constantly exposes himself in front of the local school? Would the same handling be appropriate?
If the cop – seeing it’s dark and a less-traveled county-road with no traffic – simply allows you to pee and drives by after confirming you are sober – would that be corruption? Would the cop be a sensible cop or a corrupt cop?

Maybe the lesson to learn is to use terms carefully and to understand and accept that when we toss them around we are using them in a very general form.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 10739   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
id 8741363
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OwningItNow ( member #52288) posted at 1:51 PM on Wednesday, June 22nd, 2022

Maybe the lesson to learn is to use terms carefully and to understand and accept that when we toss them around we are using them in a very general form.

Who gets to decide who is being careful and who is just "tossing words around"?

I think the larger issue in this thread is that someone can decide that they know my truth(s) better than me. Excuse me? How exactly could that be true?

I have been in disrespectful, abusive relationships where someone tries to control my behavior, and I'm done with that. While I appreciate people's unsolicited, judgey, and uninformed opinions about the terms I use to describe my own life and circumstances (insert complete sarcasm here), I will be making my own decisions about my own life, thanks very much. As we all should.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 2:23 PM, Wednesday, June 22nd]

me: BS/WSh: WS/BS

Reject the rejector. Do not reject yourself.

posts: 5555   ·   registered: Mar. 16th, 2016   ·   location: Midwest
id 8741364
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Bigger ( Attaché #8354) posted at 2:15 PM on Wednesday, June 22nd, 2022

See my first post on this thread where I ask the OP to suggest how we might do that.

Other than removing anonymity so we can confirm a user is certified to use the medical terms such as "depressed" and "narcissist" and then having a wait-period for posts so a team of volunteer mods that are certified to verify terms and term usage then before making public I think we need to trust each individual users to follow the guidelines and that they come here for help or to offer help.
Any better idea?

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 10739   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
id 8741366
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OwningItNow ( member #52288) posted at 2:19 PM on Wednesday, June 22nd, 2022

Any better idea?

Let people decide what language to use to describe their own lives? And focus on ourselves instead of what other people are doing "wrong"?

Just a thought. laugh

me: BS/WSh: WS/BS

Reject the rejector. Do not reject yourself.

posts: 5555   ·   registered: Mar. 16th, 2016   ·   location: Midwest
id 8741367
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Bigger ( Attaché #8354) posted at 2:38 PM on Wednesday, June 22nd, 2022

Thank you for editing your post to make my response less valid.

Basically, you are suggesting what I suggest: People show common sense in posting and stay within the guidelines. Good to see we agree.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 10739   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
id 8741369
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RealityBlows ( member #41108) posted at 4:33 PM on Wednesday, June 22nd, 2022

I don’t see any of those terms in the ICD-10-CM list of official Medical Diagnosis.

Narcissistic is close but is listed as Narcissist.

Depressed vs Depression

And Gaslighting isn’t even real, you’re just crazy. wink

Narcissist and other personality disorders get bandied about in here with good cause and I think most posters understand these are theoretical discussions.

Getting an unremorseful cheater to honestly submit to a psychological exam is rare so, they’ve opened themselves up to nonprofessional speculation.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 5:53 PM, Wednesday, June 22nd]

posts: 898   ·   registered: Oct. 25th, 2013
id 8741383
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BoundaryBuilder ( member #78439) posted at 6:08 PM on Wednesday, June 22nd, 2022

Everyone who's experienced infidelity in their life has something to offer.

Movingonward (I'm taking a cue from your screen name), echoing Bigger's voice - please do share your history.

Weeks of trial and hundreds of thousands spend in legal fees. So it’s going to bug me if someone is butt hurt because the kids have a good time with dad and someone else chimes in a dumb ass comment about "Disney dads".

Sounds like you had a traumatic divorce! My sympathies. Hundreds of thousands spent on legal fees! Wow. Tell us about that.

It’s okay, I’m pretty thick skinned. I understand that I may be well past the hurt where other are not.

Are you really well past the hurt? Your posts don't read that way to me. If you've recovered from infidelity, okay great. How did you get there? Tell us! Seems like you're still suffering the after effects of infidelity - divorce and the destruction of your family. You're angry at the system. Posting here may indeed be a "temporary fix", but I for one personally invite you to share your story. Who knows? Maybe you'll get something out of it. Or, perhaps sharing your experience will support others facing similar frustrations. That's why this forum exists, to have a place where we can learn from each other. And eventually, heal.

[This message edited by BoundaryBuilder at 10:35 PM, Wednesday, June 22nd]

Married 32 years w/one adult daughter
ME:BW 63
HIM:WH 65
13 month texting EA with high school X who fished him on Facebook 43 years later
PA=15 days spread over final 3 months
D-Day=April 21, 2018
Reconciled

posts: 117   ·   registered: Mar. 4th, 2021
id 8741390
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Unhinged ( member #47977) posted at 7:01 PM on Wednesday, June 22nd, 2022

I truly wanted to know if people rationalize the cheating by...

As far as I can tell, the only people who rationalize the cheating are the ones who do the cheating. I do not believe that the majority of betrayed spouses ever look for a rationalization to justify being betrayed. The majority of betrayed spouses are, however, looking for a "why." And that's just a part of human nature. In order to recover, heal and move forward, we need to understand, as well as we possibly can, why our spouses betrayed us in such a base and self-destructive manner (although some don't give a hoot but give a boot, instead).

My ex suffers (always a life-long battle) from powerful codependent tendencies. She bases her self-worth and self-esteem on her perceptions of how others value her. I became her "attachment figure." If I valued her, thought she was smart, beautiful, sexy, etc., then she believed it and her self-esteem and self-worth blossomed. When I didn't demonstrate that I thought she was smart, beautiful, sexy, whatever, then her self-worth and self-esteem plummeted. She had the same issues with other people in her life, especially her mother (the source of those powerful CoD tendencies). She became exceptionally empathic, always becoming what other people needed her to be at the time. She was also an adopted child, which instilled terrible fears of abandonment. Did learning any of this give me any satisfaction or relief from the agony? No. Not at all. CoD tendencies and fears of abandonment are not justifications for infidelity. It did, however, help me to understand why she did what she did.

There’s nothing wrong with their brains.

I have to disagree here, brother. People who cheat aren't playing with a full deck. Missing cards will vary, of course.

They knew exactly what they were doing…

Yes, I think my Ex knew exactly what she was doing when she was doing it. I think she knew damned well that she was blowing-up her life. She made her choices and she knew there would be consequences for those choices. And there have been consequences. Did she rationalize it all? Yep. Did I accept those rationalizations? Nope.

I believe that infidelity is largely self-destructive. For whatever fucked-up reasons, people cheat to fill a void within that they cannot, or will not, fill themselves. Maybe it's narcissistic tendencies, codependency, low self-esteem, conflict avoidance, childhood abuse, borderline personality disorders, dipolar depression, or a host of other diagnosable issues, there is something clearly wrong with the brains of those who deliberately choose to blow-up their lives.

Do we, the SI community, casually toss around such terms as "narcissism," "abuse," "gas-lighting," and "toxic?" No. I honestly do not believe that to be the case. I think the vast majority of members, and lurkers, are looking for answers, even to questions that can never be fully answered.

Keep on reading and posting, brother. It seems to me that you still have some processing to do. This is a great place to do just that, if you're open to the experience.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 7:04 PM, Wednesday, June 22nd]

Married 2005
D-Day April, 2015
Divorced May, 2022

"The Universe is not short on wake-up calls. We're just quick to hit the snooze button." -Brene Brown

posts: 6457   ·   registered: May. 21st, 2015   ·   location: Colorado
id 8741399
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3yrsout ( member #50552) posted at 12:53 AM on Thursday, June 23rd, 2022

Moving onward, as a (female) physician myself (not psych, but OB, or on some days, as I call it, Gynechiatry), I do agree that people over "diagnose", if you will.

I do think that this is easier than looking at some truths. Like I picked my WH. For some reason, I picked him. I chose to love a 43 yr old man who fucked a 20 year old while I was pregnant with our second child.

And that’s what I need to work on. I can’t fix him, but I sure as fuck can reset my "normal". Like damn, I missed that one. MY PICKER IS BROKEN.

I find it interesting that when people diagnose their spouse, they don’t realize that there are very good data supporting that the spouse married to people with cluster B disorders (borderline, histrionic, etc), have a MUCH higher rate of personality disorders than the average population.

If you marry someone with a personality disorder, you are much more likely to have one yourself. Data supports this. I want to say it’s almost three times more likely that the spouse of someone with a personality disorder has a personality disorder themselves than the likelihood in the general population.

So I always think very carefully when people state that their spouse has a personality disorder, because they picked them. And frankly, that’s what the healing for a BS needs to really be about.

I have my own issues, too. I’m avoidant, but I don’t fit the disorder completely by the books. I’m working on that (tomorrow probably, because I’m avoiding it now, lol).

My WS was just a selfish asshole. No diagnosable disorder there, lol. But I chose him, and that’s a shit ton of a can of worms. Why did I pick him? What can I do to prevent myself from making that choice? Tough questions.

[This message edited by 3yrsout at 12:58 AM, Thursday, June 23rd]

posts: 634   ·   registered: Nov. 27th, 2015
id 8741454
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3yrsout ( member #50552) posted at 12:56 AM on Thursday, June 23rd, 2022

Oh, and I’m now 10 years out. It took me until year 8 or so before I gained this insight. No way in hell would I have gone there for the first seven years after. He’s just lucky I didn’t buy a wood chipper those first many years…..

Awkward questions get asked, like, "Does this wood chipper handle wet limbs? Large, wet, limbs?"

And no one wants that at Home Depot.

posts: 634   ·   registered: Nov. 27th, 2015
id 8741455
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ShockedAndShattered ( new member #79685) posted at 12:58 AM on Thursday, June 23rd, 2022

I find your comment to be incredibly dismissive and assumptive. Why are you troubled by the words that someone else uses to describe the person center to their experiences? How other people choose to explain or share their feelings about THEIR OWN situations has nothing to do with you.

The words narcissistic, gaslighting and toxic have been used for ages and have been in my vernacular and that of many people I know. They aren't just buzzwords and they haven't just gained popularity in the past 3-5 years. Perhaps the last 3-5 years is the time span that those words meant something to you so you became more aware of their use?

A medical degree isn't required to know if someone is gaslighting you or if you're in a toxic environment. There's no diagnosis that can tell you that.

Lots of people on this site, whether WS's or BS's, have been diagnosed with, have been treated for or have demonstrated narcissistic traits/tendencies. Calling someone a narcissist or believing that someone is demonstrating narcissistic tendencies based on what they've experienced with that person is in no way equivalent to making a medical diagnosis.

The most offensive thing about your post (to me) is saying that using the word 'abuse' to describe what one has experienced is "very cliché" and "like one big meme". What I experienced was abuse. What MANY people on here have experienced was/is abuse.

Perhaps you've never been abused. Or, perhaps you don't have the capacity to empathize or relate to those who have been.

Your umbrage with the verbiage others choose to use is apparent by the anger and resentment in your comments.

Starting a comment with "You women..." is misogynistic.

BS(me):42 WH:43 Married
DDay 1- 9/11/2021 EA 5+ yrs & lies
TTDDay 2- 9/23/2021 EA 2+ years & lies
TTDDay 3- 10/17/2021 EAs 1.5 yrs/5+ yrs
TTDDay 4- 04/11/2022 Conf PA w/1 EA
05/19/22 Breakthrough
Currently in R.

posts: 30   ·   registered: Dec. 17th, 2021
id 8741457
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3yrsout ( member #50552) posted at 1:09 AM on Thursday, June 23rd, 2022

I do think there is a role of gender in the way people deal with infidelity, so I can understand that there are times that a gender can somewhat predict outcome. For example, I suspect there are fewer men who remain married to women when they’ve had affairs with three different men they men half her age anonymously in alleys for full on sex.

But here I am, a woman staying with a man who did that….

Society, finances, kids, lots of reasons why those things happen. And many are related to my gender, his gender, lots of things.

I didn’t read your take as being sexist. I read it as coming from a place of pain and repetitive poor choices. Your picker is broken, too, my friend.

When you can, you should look at that. Take all the time you need, but that might be where your truth lies, as did mine.

It doesn’t make it my fault, to be clear. It was a really dark time when I was working through this, still is a very dark time. I created a situation where my kids were hurt by my shitty picker.

My solution, being the avoidant person, is to just never go into any romantic situation again. With my WS or anyone else. I chose to murder that part inside because my picker is so fucked up, it’s unrecoverable. Bad mother board. Making a new circuit that bypasses that part, so I won’t feel empty anymore.

And I don’t. Because me wanting romance was just as sick as him wanting it. It’s not real.

posts: 634   ·   registered: Nov. 27th, 2015
id 8741459
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3yrsout ( member #50552) posted at 1:18 AM on Thursday, June 23rd, 2022

Oh the abuse thing…. I have a different take on it. My mother was a victim of intimate partner violence, and I was physically abused by her at times to keep her from getting abused by the dude who hurt her.

Is cheating abusive? Hmmmmm. It’s definitely an asshole thing, definitely ego-centric and jerky. It’s a broken contract, and it deeply affected me and will be a painful thing for the rest of my life. More painful than being hurt by my mother.

Is it abuse? I’m not going to call it that in my mind, but that’s always a perception thing, isn’t it?

I think sometimes that word feels better (abuse) because it feels like everything else minimizes a BS’s pain.

I’m sure my 13 year old will say I’m abusive because I used his dead name when he first came out as trans. And I’m sure he was really hurt by it. Was it abuse? Complicated. And based on perception.

Interestingly, there was a study about molested children. (Can’t post links, but you can google this). They didn’t always perceive the abuse as abuse! Some even said that the trials and therapy afterword traumatized them, too.

Is it abusive if you have sex with a drunk person? Technically it’s rape. I have sex with my drunk husband, am I raping him? Is it abuse?

Abuse is such a complicated issue. I suppose it’s about perception, which has an inherent unfairness to it.

[This message edited by 3yrsout at 1:22 AM, Thursday, June 23rd]

posts: 634   ·   registered: Nov. 27th, 2015
id 8741464
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This0is0Fine ( member #72277) posted at 2:31 AM on Thursday, June 23rd, 2022

I don't think anyone is rationalizing. They are pointing out labels exist for these types of behaviors and the motivations. Understanding a behavior doesn't excuse or rationalize it.

"She wasn't a narcissist, she was cold calculating and selfish".

What's the difference?

DARVO is another great behavior concept that is worth learning about.

When you know these behaviors have labels and strategies to deal with them, that's what helps.

I don't think it helps anyone to excuse or rationalize for the WS.

Love is not a measure of capacity for pain you are willing to endure for your partner.

posts: 1946   ·   registered: Dec. 11th, 2019
id 8741486
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66charger ( member #69471) posted at 2:56 AM on Thursday, June 23rd, 2022

I’m new here

I’ve ended two marriages due to cheating

Your scream is heard, as imperfect as some wished it to be.

Move on brother if you need to.

Unfortunate.

posts: 314   ·   registered: Jan. 17th, 2019
id 8741493
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EllieKMAS ( member #68900) posted at 3:41 PM on Thursday, June 23rd, 2022

Per the DSM, NPD includes:

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and with lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood, as indicated by at least five of the following:

1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements, expects to be recognized as superior without actually completing the achievements)

2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of success, power, brilliance, beauty, or perfect love.

3. Believes that they are "special" and can only be understood by or should only associate with other special people (or institutions).

4. Requires excessive admiration.

5. Has a sense of entitlement, such as an unreasonable expectation of favorable treatment or compliance with his or her expectations).

6. Is exploitative and takes advantage of others to achieve their own ends.

7. Lacks empathy and is unwilling to identify with the needs of others.

8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of them.

9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors and attitudes

Look I am in no way saying that ALL cheaters are narcs. I also agree that the word gets used a lot on this site. However - read the list above, like really READ it. Can you honestly tell me that a LOT of cheaters don't tick off quite a few if not all of those boxes? I have been on this site for several years now and I have seen these traits over and over and over again by BS's when describing their WS.

I don't believe that most BS's are trying to 'rationalize' anything. BS's show up here hurting and confused and trying their best to make sense of something that is utterly nonsensical. I think a lot of them (myself included) find out about narcissism/NPD/narcissistic behaviors for the first time when they get to SI and given that a lot of cheaters (mine included) seem to fit a LOT of these characteristics, can you really blame a BS for concluding that their cheater is a narc?

I say again - if it helps a BS to figure out their own reality and to help them begin to process the infidelity by 'labeling' their cheater in some way - why does that bother YOU?

"No, it's you mothafucka, here's a list of reasons why." – Iliza Schlesinger

"The love that you lost isn't worth what it cost and in time you'll be glad that it's gone." – Linkin Park

posts: 3461   ·   registered: Nov. 22nd, 2018   ·   location: CO
id 8741539
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Beachwalker ( member #70472) posted at 1:30 AM on Friday, June 24th, 2022

I heard part of a discussion on the radio today which seemed to fit into this discussion. The guest was a counselor of 35 years who specialized in adultery and among the many interesting things he had to say was his comments on narcissists. His description of them was spot on to what I mostly read here on SI. Second, the only way for those people to recover was for the BS to separate and leave the narcissistic spouse to themselves. Lastly, only 4 to 6% of those he diagnosed as narcissistic recovered. Those that did recover had a lot of hard work to do and for about 7 months.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

posts: 297   ·   registered: May. 4th, 2019   ·   location: US
id 8741595
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 movingonward (original poster new member #78412) posted at 3:27 AM on Friday, June 24th, 2022

I’ll post my story at some point. I don’t think I was married to narcissistic women. They made bad decisions which ended marriages and families. I would never get married again and I would not recommend marriage to any younger people. I do believe there is a vast difference in the genders working against a truly happy relationship. I’m not saying one gender is better than the other, there’re just different and most people won’t spend the time to learn the true needs of their partner. Statistics support marriage being a huge risk and gamble. Second and third ones even worse. Add kids to the mix and it’s almost an absolute disaster.

I’d rather see people labeled as assholes and liars than some sort of bullshit medical term like narc. 15-20 years ago it was almost unheard of. Now it’s part of everyday conversation.

posts: 15   ·   registered: Mar. 1st, 2021
id 8741598
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