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Too many doctors in the house

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emergent8 ( member #58189) posted at 8:12 PM on Tuesday, June 21st, 2022

I’m just trying to understand in what way people get some satisfaction or healing in coming to a non medical diagnosis that their cheater must have been a narc

People who have been in a relationship with a toxic, abusive, cheating, narcissistic partner have often been gaslighted into believing they are crazy and often their perception of reality is so skewed by their treatment that they believe that their experience is either normal or deserved. I can only imagine that reading about narcissism and commiserating with others with similar experiences is incredibly validating.

But I guess going against the grain doesn’t seem to fly with most. It’s okay, I’m pretty thick skinned.

Your initial post was not well-received because it "went against the grain" but because it was insensitive and dismissive.

Me: BS, Him: WS. Mid-late 30s.
Together 15 years, married 6 (11 m at D-Day).
D-Day: Feb 2017 (8 m PA with married COW).
5 years (and two toddlers) into R. Happy.

posts: 944   ·   registered: Apr. 7th, 2017
id 8741279
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Dkt3 ( new member #75072) posted at 8:21 PM on Tuesday, June 21st, 2022

Logic vs emotions. Its said there is 355 million people in the US. Well 45-50% of that are children with im sure are not involved in affairs yet do count towards the 5% diagnosed narcissist. Take away the 45-50% from the 16 million and you get 8 which is an awfully low number to believe have been unfaithful. Consider statics say 30-75% of marriage have been touched by infidelities. Wide range because not all view infidelities the same.

Facts are facts, and can't really be changed to fit ones agenda. Undiagnosed is the same as not being when is someone unqualified making the call.

Just because someone does something bad to you doesn't mean one is qualified to diagnose them narcissist, calling them narcissist doesn't make them narcissist, simply someone who mistreated you.

I tend to avoid logic vs emotional topics being a very analytical type so I will exist stage right now.

posts: 49   ·   registered: Aug. 3rd, 2020
id 8741282
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crazyblindsided ( member #35215) posted at 8:24 PM on Tuesday, June 21st, 2022

My XWS was Diagnosed NPD by his therapist and he is also a serial cheater.

fBS/fWS(me):48 Mad-hattered after DD1
XWS:51 Serial Cheater, NPD tendencies
Together 25 years, Married 19
DD(18) DS(15)
DD1 (2008) COW, DD2 (2012) MOW, False R (2014) Same MOW. DD3 (2019) Webcam girl

posts: 8251   ·   registered: Apr. 2nd, 2012   ·   location: California
id 8741283
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 8:31 PM on Tuesday, June 21st, 2022

I get no satisfaction, or healing,in knowing my husband is a narcissist. I find it odd that you believe anyone would be find satisfaction and relief in recognising the consistent behaviour of your spouse as narcissism.

You don't live with my husband. You don't know him. But you feel confident in telling me,and the other BS in my position, that we are probably wrong,and we don't know what our experience has been.

laugh

posts: 4386   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8741286
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 movingonward (original poster new member #78412) posted at 9:06 PM on Tuesday, June 21st, 2022

I don’t know how to quote. By satisfaction I mean that maybe some rationalize the cheating to a degree because the cheater had a mental condition. My point being the word is thrown around so much that it completely degrades it’s meaning in the first place.

Of course I had my ex call me a narc. She had a two page manifesto she started reading at trial until her attorney and the judge told her to to stop talking. She lost her case. Years later, I see the word used over and over and over again. I think to myself, wow we have a lot of self diagnosed mental cases running amuck. Only to realize this isn’t the case at all. It’s just how people want to label others. It’s very prevalent on this site in reading the divorced forum. I pointed it out, but I’m overrun by people telling me I’m inconsiderate because I don’t agree with their ‘diagnosis’. It like me looking at someone who has chest pains and a cough and telling them they have lung cancer. In what way am I qualified???

posts: 15   ·   registered: Mar. 1st, 2021
id 8741288
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emergent8 ( member #58189) posted at 9:11 PM on Tuesday, June 21st, 2022

So because your wife was wrong, all women must be wrong?

ETA: Just because something was YOUR experience, does not mean it is true for everyone. Don't you think its possible that some of the people here have narcissistic spouses (or ex-spouses?) If you acknowledge that possibility, then how do you presume to know which people are correct and which are not. Again, WHY does it matter to you?

[This message edited by emergent8 at 9:16 PM, Tuesday, June 21st]

Me: BS, Him: WS. Mid-late 30s.
Together 15 years, married 6 (11 m at D-Day).
D-Day: Feb 2017 (8 m PA with married COW).
5 years (and two toddlers) into R. Happy.

posts: 944   ·   registered: Apr. 7th, 2017
id 8741290
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Seeking2Forgive ( member #78819) posted at 9:21 PM on Tuesday, June 21st, 2022

They are all just buzz words that have taken off in the last few years and are overused in todays conversations. Some of this may be political, some of it may be the widening gender divide (I see it used by females more than males on this site). While I understand people are coming to terms of what was done to them and maybe it gives them relief saying "he/she was just a narcissist", I caution that all cheaters aren’t narcissistic just because they cheated. Flawed yes, narcissists, maybe not.

Again, common usage of these terms here on SI predates any current trend that you're chafing at by twenty years. There is no connection between their development into political buzzwords and their usage here.

"narcissist" is a common word meaning "a person who is overly self-involved, and often vain and selfish." That describes most cheaters perfectly. There is no reason to assume that someone means it as a clinical diagnosis unless they specifically say as much.

As someone else suggested, most narcissists that we talk about here are probably not clinical narcissists. They're just assholes. But they're assholes who are narcissists in the common usage. There's nothing wrong with saying so.

Me: 60, BS -- Her: 59, FWS -- Dday: 11/15/03 -- Married 37 yrs -- Reconciled

posts: 393   ·   registered: May. 18th, 2021
id 8741292
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Dkt3 ( new member #75072) posted at 9:28 PM on Tuesday, June 21st, 2022

I was going to exist but I believe I've been misunderstood. I myself was a BS, I don't believe any BS would find it satisfying, what I'm saying is it makes it easier to explain behavior that for many of us BS is foreign.

I believe many personality disorders can be directly linked to infidelities. Couple that with human nature to explain and understand everything it is convenient to make the connection when statically its not likely.

This site and others like it are a subsection of society as a whole and the people who post here are what I would call worse case scenarios in terms of Infidelity and being hurt by it. Many simply move on, many of us here got stuck and have a difficult time. We need to understand, what better place, right. Rarely when I hear or overhear someone out in my everyday life talk cheating and infidelities do I hear terms like NPD or narcissist.

I think posters here read alot, and while reading we see checklists and the WS ticks some of the boxes. Oh they are narcissist. However, over the course of life we all tick a box or two or three, right? Say someone has been around us for the box ticking, would it be accurate for them to then label us narcissistic?

posts: 49   ·   registered: Aug. 3rd, 2020
id 8741293
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jadedangel ( member #26979) posted at 9:30 PM on Tuesday, June 21st, 2022

So because your wife was wrong, all women must be wrong?

This is the second time that I have noticed that the OP has called out the women on this site.

Movingonward, if you have such a thick skin, why does it matter what terms are used and what gender uses it the most?

Divorced 2007.
EXWH died 2011
Remarried 2018!

posts: 677   ·   registered: Dec. 30th, 2009   ·   location: Central City
id 8741294
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EllieKMAS ( member #68900) posted at 9:35 PM on Tuesday, June 21st, 2022

Years later, I see the word used over and over and over again. I think to myself, wow we have a lot of self diagnosed mental cases running amuck. Only to realize this isn’t the case at all. It’s just how people want to label others. It’s very prevalent on this site in reading the divorced forum. I pointed it out, but I’m overrun by people telling me I’m inconsiderate because I don’t agree with their ‘diagnosis’.

Narcs are almost never 'self diagnosed' - narcs don't think there's anything at all wrong with them so why would they diagnose themselves as this?

If a BS labeling their cheating spouse a narc helps that BS to make sense of the betrayal and to move forward from it I fail to see the harm in that. My dad is (not formally diagnosed) a narcissist. It wasn't until I read an article about NPD/Cluster B disorders well into my adult years that I was clearly able to see how he treated me my whole life was abusive. That gave me the framework I needed to come to grips with it and to get free of it. Will he ever be formally diagnosed? No - he thinks all mental health professionals are quacks. Does that change my opinion that he has some pretty pronounced narcissistic traits that did a lot of damage to me? No it does not. I don't need some diagnosis to tell me what I know based on my years of dealing with his bullshit.

You are entitled to your opinion of course but opinions aren't facts. And just because you disagree with how someone else is choosing to make sense of their reality doesn't mean they're wrong either. You've done 12 posts on this site, most of which are on this thread. Maybe all the other long-timers around here might know a thing or two yeah? So could be if you're getting 'overrun' by people saying 'hey now wait a minute', there might be some room for learning or at least appreciating that other's journeys might need some diagnosing for them to figure things out.

"No, it's you mothafucka, here's a list of reasons why." – Iliza Schlesinger

"The love that you lost isn't worth what it cost and in time you'll be glad that it's gone." – Linkin Park

posts: 3461   ·   registered: Nov. 22nd, 2018   ·   location: CO
id 8741295
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 9:45 PM on Tuesday, June 21st, 2022

In what way are you qualified to dismiss our experience with our spouse?

Again..We've been together for 24 years. I believe I know him a whole lot better than you. You are,actually, not qualified as an expert on my husband,or my life with him. And that's ok. You're approval of my conclusion isn't relevant. Or needed

I'm sorry your wife wrongly labelled you as a narcissist. That doesn't mean everyone else is wrong.

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:46 PM, Tuesday, June 21st]

posts: 4386   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8741298
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Beachwalker ( member #70472) posted at 9:50 PM on Tuesday, June 21st, 2022

movingonward: While I agree with your point those of us on this website use certain terms more commonly than one might think would be acceptable or "normal" in everyday discussion, I do think their usage here is appropriate.

If you were to walk into a meeting of grocery story managers, you might complain of hearing the terms "Produce Section", "Meat Counter", and "Health and Beauty Aids" much too often, especially when compared to conversations outside the meeting. In reality, who else talks this way? Well, pretty much only grocery store managers. But when you go to one of their meetings, this is the type of terms you will hear often because it pertains to their way of business, of what they do every day. Just as they won't use terms like "waywards", "narcists", and "cheaters", we won't use "produce section". One set of terms does not apply to the other group, and vise versa.

I believe this is what has happened. You noticed multiple terms used repeatedly which, in comparison to discussions outside this forum, seem out of place and over used. And, of course they would. But in this forum, terms like, "narcist", "gaslighting", and "serial cheater" are common because they apply to the subject(s) at hand. Here they are appropriate and commonplace.

Regarding whether the terms are 100% clinically correctly placed on each and every individual, I would say probably not. But we have to remember that we are laymen here trying to help others in need, and when you look at each situation with the information provided by each poster, we try to help the poster pinpoint the reasoning or behavior used by the other (or the poster) which gave them permission to violate their sacred marital vows. For someone to do this, something went wrong somewhere. We take that information and see if there is a term it defines, and as has been said, "if the shoe fits, ...."

Do we get it right all the time? I would say almost all the time. When you compare what we have here on this site (experienced people on both sides of the cheating, both R'd and not, hundreds of people giving their input, some contributors are actually therapists and/or counselors, at no cost, available 24/7, etc.) versus discussion with a counselor once a week, maybe twice a month, my guess is we come very close to giving excellent advice to many people. Plus, I think our terminology, for the most part, is spot on.

(And, I just can't resist: The OM / OW probably came from the "Meat sexion"!) laugh

posts: 297   ·   registered: May. 4th, 2019   ·   location: US
id 8741300
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Charity411 ( member #41033) posted at 10:36 PM on Tuesday, June 21st, 2022

My take on this subject is related to me. Why was I attracted to those tendencies, diagnosed or not, and how do I stop it. And further, what made me attractive to them. I can't fix them, only myself. So I spend more time diagnosing myself. LOL!

posts: 1600   ·   registered: Oct. 18th, 2013   ·   location: Illinois
id 8741304
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morningglory ( member #80236) posted at 11:06 PM on Tuesday, June 21st, 2022

This is the second time that I have noticed that the OP has called out the women on this site.

Look at his post history. He does it again and again. Very misogynist. That's not a medical label, so I can say that one lol.

posts: 348   ·   registered: Apr. 15th, 2022
id 8741306
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tushnurse ( member #21101) posted at 11:22 PM on Tuesday, June 21st, 2022

There's a phrase here used often, and would encourage all that are responding to take a deep breath and use it.
Take what you need and leave the rest.

Of course this should absolutely go to OP. It seems your way of expressing use of common terminology in relation to observed behaviors, and assuming that users are using as a medical diagnosis is a bit intentionally obtuse.
If you don't like too bad, that is how an individual is describing observed behaviors, and their situation.
So for you please....

Take what you need, and leave the rest. Please.

This whole thread is absolutely ridiculous, and your intent was to upset and rile other. Not a healthy thing. So perhaps these terms are bothering you because they are hitting close to home. There's another saying/phrase here at SI, it isn't used as much these days, but it is appropriate.

If something you read bothers you, or gets your own ire up, it's a good time to pause and self exam why that is.
Have a good day sir.

Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 22 & 25
Married for 30 years now, was 16 at the time.
D-Day Sept 26 2008
R'd in about 2 years. Old Vet now.

posts: 19321   ·   registered: Oct. 1st, 2008   ·   location: St. Louis
id 8741307
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BoundaryBuilder ( member #78439) posted at 11:28 PM on Tuesday, June 21st, 2022

CONTEXT is what OP doesn't seem to acknowledge. Movingonward, this is a a support forum for people trying to recover from infidelity. Not considering the inherent, nuanced CONTEXT of posts by folks identifying as female in the "Divorce/Separation" forum resulted in voicing some gross generalizations that didn't really apply to the specific discussions at hand. Misogyny? Perhaps - looks that way. Was your intent "to upset and rile others"? Perhaps - feels that way. Only Movingonward can address his intent.

ETA:

If something you read bothers you, or gets your own ire up, it's a good time to pause and self exam why that is.

Agreed Tushnurse! Movingonward doth protest too much, methinks.

[This message edited by BoundaryBuilder at 5:06 AM, Thursday, June 23rd]

Married 32 years w/one adult daughter
ME:BW 63
HIM:WH 65
13 month texting EA with high school X who fished him on Facebook 43 years later
PA=15 days spread over final 3 months
D-Day=April 21, 2018
Reconciled

posts: 117   ·   registered: Mar. 4th, 2021
id 8741309
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 movingonward (original poster new member #78412) posted at 1:33 AM on Wednesday, June 22nd, 2022

misogynist? Hardly. Maybe another miss diagnosis and another swing and a miss.

I truly wanted to know if people rationalize the cheating by labeling their spouse as one thing or another. Narc seems to be the term I see a lot, so that’s the example I used.

I don’t mean the stir the pot, but I just don’t see how people agreeing with these conclusions is of any help. My view is that they weren’t a narc. There’s nothing wrong with their brains. They knew exactly what they were doing…cold and calculating. They were attracted to someone else and blew up everything for the attention, the sex, the "lourve" or whatever reason. Spending any time trying to rationalize their behavior is a waste. Spouting off on an anonymous website is a temporary fix. Leaving the relationship is permanent help. It’s the quickest way to healing from my experience. I wasted three years of my life going down rabbit holes as so many others do. It’s not a thought that crosses my brain any longer.

As far as my other post, yeah, I fought real hard to overcome a bias against fathers in the courts. I had to overcome the bias that naturally, moms make the better parents for the children. Weeks of trial and hundreds of thousands spend in legal fees. So it’s going to bug me if someone is butt hurt because the kids have a good time with dad and someone else chimes in a dumb ass comment about "Disney dads".

posts: 15   ·   registered: Mar. 1st, 2021
id 8741324
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nomudnolotus ( member #59431) posted at 1:47 AM on Wednesday, June 22nd, 2022

I see misogynist as well.

Just because that is your experience with the courts doesn't mean it's everyone else's experience.

You've made a post stating how you dislike that people are using words and judging people.

And everything you say is using words to judge people.

Pot calling the kettle black.

If you see this site as useless why bother coming here?

posts: 247   ·   registered: Jun. 30th, 2017
id 8741325
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 2:37 AM on Wednesday, June 22nd, 2022

Disney dads".

That thread was started by a woman. So the comments were tailored to her,as a woman, dealing with a Disney dad. Had the thread been started by a man,dealing with an ex wife, the comments would have been the same.

I suggest you read a bit more in the divorce forum. There is no shortage of exhusbands dealing with shitty ex-wives who are mean,and lousy mothers. Barcher, for example. His wife is bat shit crazy( not a clinical diagnosis).

it’s going to bug me if someone is butt hurt because the kids have a good time with dad

You were admonishing a very newly separated BW,who was hurting. And you are misrepresenting what was said.

You have specifically mentioned women being the guilty party by diagnosing their spouse,and had a real issue in the other thread,about women. I'm sorry you've been treated unfairly. Guess what? So has every woman posting here.

Maybe something to work on in IC.

posts: 4386   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8741331
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SI Staff ( Moderator #10) posted at 3:26 AM on Wednesday, June 22nd, 2022

I am going to remind everyone to post respectfully. There will be no attacking members, name calling, etc.

If you find yourself unable to do so, step away.

posts: 10009   ·   registered: May. 30th, 2002
id 8741339
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