SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I would like to know from both parties can a marriage be saved or improve in a positive way. I have read online that alot of marriages are even stronger then before. Some divorce is the only way out. I just would like to know if that's true or not.

This is such a subjective question.

Can marriages survive it? Sure.

Can the marriage ever be what is was before? As a BS, my answer is a definite no. Once infidelity happens, it blows a hole through the existing M that truly can't be 'repaired'.

For the M to 'survive' (and in this context I think you mean thrive and be a healthy relationship eventually), BOTH parties have to do a LOT of work. Like... A LOT. The WS has to be willing to get very real and very honest with themself and IC and their BS, and the BS has to do a lot of work overcoming the damage wrought. It is very hard work and it takes a lot of time. And honestly, IMHO a lot of folks just don't have that level of ability for self-work in them.

As a BS, I think maybe 5% (and TBH, I think that's probably overstating) of marriages actually overcome it and get better than they were before. I think maybe 10% "survive" it, but just find an equilibrium that everyone can live with.

I think it's really important when reading around online about it to consider the context and source. There is a whole money-making complex about 'saving' marriages that I think WAY overstate the likelihood of a marriage improving after infidelity.

It depends on the couple and every situation is different. For some, an affair is a deal breaker and for others, it's an eye opener that the marriage needed attention. Not that having an affair is EVER the right thing to do.

I am a BS and my H had an affair after 23 yrs of marriage. We were able to make it through and yes - we are better now than we were before. It took alot of work and dedication to fix it, but we were able to get through it and stay together. We will be 4 yrs out this September.

For some however, divorce is the only way out for a variety of reasons.

This is a very generalized question as every situation is unique.

I'm a BS - and have been working on R through multiple DDays AND a LTAP that tried to come back after 2 years [we had to have a Lawyer send a Cease and Desist - and I still don't feel safe].

Can a marriage be saved - it is possible. Probably is the more appropriate question and it is unique to every circumstance.

Can a marriage be better - no. It can be different and that is unique as well as to if different = good or not.

Can it be stronger than before - no. Because let's face it - something that is repaired is not stronger - there will always be that weak spot. That doesn't mean it can't be strong again.

Can marriage be improved - no. You can't improve upon something with infidelity thrown in. That's not to say you can't again have a positive marriage. But let's face it - if the marriage was that positive to begin with for both parties - we really wouldn't be meeting on SI. I thought mine was. WH will say he thought was too, yet here I am on SI.

WH and I were always in our decades together known as the Golden Couple and the Power Couple. Now...I know I'm the gold and the power. And that doesn't make the fact that I'm the BS of a LTA any easier to swallow.

In my opinion, those that say that a marriage can be stronger after cheating are living in a fantasy world. The betrayed spouse will never completely trust the cheating spouse 100%.

Good luck

BS here.

My marriage is not stronger.

I’m stronger and not codependent anymore. I can walk away clean when I want. Maybe that makes my WS try, who knows.

I remember reading a stat somewhere (altho I'm now unable to find it) that the success rate for reconciliation in most marriages after infidelity drops off precipitously after the 5th year.

In other words, the odds for successful reconciliation are much tougher as time goes by. This may be because as things level out, as HB fades, as emotions cool and a BS's thoughts begin to settle they tend to begin thinking that it's a raw deal for them.

We tend to see all the time BS's showing up many years later here at SI, still smarting with raw feelings surging back to the surface after years of suppressing them. This could be anecdotal evidence for that.

Once infidelity happens, it blows a hole through the existing M that truly can't be 'repaired'

I must concur with this. I always analogize it to a precious vase that has been deliberately thrown and shattered into a thousand pieces. You can "repair" the vase (marriage) but it will never quite be the same strong vessel it was before. That doesn't mean marriage post-infidelity is a continuing hellscape, but it's certainly "less than" (just my own experience, although many others seem to share it).

I have read online that alot of marriages are even stronger then before.

In my personal experience, once you drill down on specifics on what is meant by "better" or "stronger" than before it is often either a reference to an improvement over what had been a bad marriage or it is a reference to a set of conditions that any reasonable person would expect within a normal marriage.

The therapeutic community is beginning to acknowledge (even infidelity apologist like Esther Perel acknowledge) that infidelity happens in good marriages all the time (or what should have been good marriages, infidelity notwithstanding). Perhaps, as some in the therapeutic community seem to have alluded to, it even may be that it's happening more in good marriages now than anywhere else, given what seems to be an epidemic of infidelity in a culture in freefall.

But how can infidelity possibly improve what was a good marriage?

[This message edited by Thumos at 6:22 PM, April 29th (Thursday)]

My marriage is not stronger.

I’m stronger

This, and everything Chaos said. My marriage will never be the same. Can it still be a decent marriage? I guess, but it’s never going to be great or stronger.

I’m willing to bet if you asked my WH if it was better than ever, he would say yes.

I believe it's possible bc there are folks here on SI who say their M is "better" or "stronger" or some other such thing as it was pre-A.

And I believe EVERY one of those people would say it takes a TON of HARD effing WORK.

IMO, none of the "work" after dday, for the WS or BS, is for the weak or faint of heart. You gotta be strong as effing nails to heal from this shit. You gotta be REALLY dedicated to it. I felt I had no choice - it was either work on healing or just slit my throat and be done with life altogether (yes, it was that bad, and it was like that for year 1 and most of year 2, with my WH's own suicide attempt in the middle of that time period). It's like a whole other full time, 24/7 job - or it was for me.

My WH seems to view it like a "honey do" list... IOW, yeah, sweetie, I'll get to that leaky faucet when I have time, when the game isn't on, when there's not something else happening to occupy my attention. If making the changes required to even consider R are not the #1 PRIORITY (after a roof & putting food on the table), then the M isn't a priority and R is not, IMO, possible (or successful R)

So, I'd say my M has a VERY small chance of "surviving", and that doesn't even speak to being "better" or "stronger" or any other positive way of looking at it. I could be wrong (not the 1st - or last- time).

WH and I were always in our decades together known as the Golden Couple and the Power Couple.

I wouldn't say my WH and I were known as "golden", but we were definitely "power". And, like chaos, this journey has shown me that

I know I'm the gold and the power.

And, like Chaos, knowing that, after the work I've had to put in, still does not make one bit of my WH's LTA any easier to swallow.

ETA: And I agree with EllieK and think this is something to REALLY think about:

There is a whole money-making complex about 'saving' marriages that I think WAY overstate the likelihood of a marriage improving after infidelity.

And if you start to dig through some of their "stuff", it sure looks to me like a big part of it is convincing the BS to basically let it go, rather than convincing the BS to hold firm to their boundaries while the WS fixes their crap.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 8:20 PM, April 29th, 2021 (Thursday)]

Hi Patti21,

It seems like you're looking for some reassurance that all the pain you and your BS are going through now will be worth it if you just hang in there. There's no certainty. That's true of life generally, but it's writ large in this situation.

My affair was really long (7 years) so it's hard for me to think about the before and after comparison because there was such a lot of time that was during. The truth is I was not a safe, healthy partner in any relationship, even before marriage, because I was mired in shame. My self worth was very much tied to what I thought other people thought of me, and I spent a lot energy trying to manage their feelings and control information about me. Each person I interacted with only saw some aspect of me, with a lot of spinning, omitting, or outright lying on my part to keep the feelings I wanted from that person flowing. When BS and I got married, I looked great on paper and I was a person who seemed to have their shit together. The truth is I was a person who was good at making it look like they had their shit together, always hustling for my worth. If the wheels started coming off, I had almost no tools for healthy coping. I reached for things that could reliably give me a good feelings with little effort on my part: food, intoxicants, screens and ultimately the affair (which also involved all of those).

One of the things that turned it all around for me was studying Brene Brown's work on vulnerability. Vulnerability means showing up and giving it your all in spite of not knowing how things are going to turn out. It's terrifying. It's also how you cultivate courage, compassion and connection. It's how you develop shame resilience, which given your history and how you talk about your current situation you desperately need to learn.

I started with the book "I Thought It Was Just Me" which is her seminal work on shame. Her book "The Gifts of Imperfection" extends the work to give practical insight into shame resilience and how it is related to authentic, whole-hearted living. "Daring Greatly" expands into applications specific to parenting, work, relationships and leadership. It focuses on how to be all in. "Rising Strong" is about how to apply these tools and concepts to recover from a face plant. I cannot overstate how much applying what I learned in these books has helped me.

Another thing that will be a big help is a meditation and mindfulness practice. I use an app called Headspace but there are many other resources, many of them free. The important thing is to do it every day, even if it's for a short time, even just 5 minutes if that's all you have. The benefits are cumulative. You can learn to train your mind to relate differently to difficult feelings so that you can respond to them in a manner that is wholesome instead of destructive.

Keep digging down on why and how you were able to betray your spouse and your own integrity. The why and how won't be an excuse, but it will be an explanation for how your brain became wired in such a way that you were able to green light those choices. Then you will have the big rewiring project to do, because understanding a problem is not the same thing as fixing it. That's where the Brene Brown stuff and meditation/mindfulness became really important for me.

My relationship with BS is stronger and more authentic now than it has ever been, but the cost to BS has been steep. His physical health has never fully recovered, although he is much better than he was during the affair and in those first horrible years after D-day. The timeline for healing is long. The common wisdom is 2-5 years but for us I'd say it was more like 6-8. He still triggers sometimes, but we handle them pretty well.

The work you need to do on you is independent of whether your marriage survives. The work you do on yourself will impact every relationship you have for the rest of your life. The marriage may or may not be salvageable, but you definitely are. The work is 1000% worth it.

Proceed with conviction and valor.

Best to you from this fellow EvolvingSoul.

Can the marriage ever be what is was before? As a BS, my answer is a definite no. Once infidelity happens, it blows a hole through the existing M that truly can't be 'repaired'.

As a WS, I felt this too.

I think you mean thrive and be a healthy relationship eventually), BOTH parties have to do a LOT of work. Like... A LOT.

 Patty, I think you mean thrive too. And its true, there is a lot of work to be done on both side. We obviously need to fix our shit. And its not easy. Our BS have unfairly been handed a shit sandwich and part of that sandwich is tough work of their own to do now. And its not easy.

In that work is where I think our statistics of surviving together is determined. Change is hard and everyone in this situation has critical changes to make. Not everyone is up to it. The make or break relies on this work.

Plain and simple its a completely different dynamic, experience, and way of life once infidelity is discovered. That betrayal is always there just an arms length away. The person we proved to be, the pain we caused, the breakdown of our M, is never forgotten. A new norm enters. But that doesn't always mean you can't have a quality life going forward.

Saved and improved in some ways? Sure, that seems like a possibility. Better than what it could have been? No.

As a BS there will never be another day from now until the end of time where I don't wake up knowing the person I trusted, loved and cared for the most betrayed me in one of the worst possible ways. That takes some of the light out of the world for me and it will never be the same.

We may yet end up with a "better" marriage due to improved communication, a greater understanding of needs/wants but I will never love her the way I once did.

When my ExWW cheated with my former friend I knew that marriage would not survive.

I didn't have the opportunity to verify that though as she left for him and her world fell apart.

I have brought what I learned through that experience into my new marriage and without a doubt can say that this marriage is so much better and stronger than I think my first one ever could have been.

I think I am better and stronger since DDAY. I think he is also better and stronger since DDAY. I think we're both actively working on our ourselves and our relationship.

Is the relationship stronger than before though? No way. There is too much that was lost when I found out he had been cheating basically our entire marriage. There is no coming back from that for me. Can we still be a pretty good couple, have some fun, share some memories, love each other? Sure, but it's never going to be great.

Funny, I asked him if he thought our marriage was better than ever, and he said yes. So I think the standards for better than ever can sometimes vary between W and B.

Patty21,

The marriage will never be what is was before.

In my case my M was in a miserable state before my A. So there was no point in simply going back to the same old if we were going to try to R.

So we had to deal with several things - one was me working through my whys, my BW working through the trauma of what I did, and both of us working together to make our M work.

It took a lot of work on BOTH parties to make R possible. To realize that an M takes constant work and effort. For me to really accept my failings, to deal with my issues, to listen, to change. That is something I am stil working on 5 years later.

So yes our M has improved, but at a huge cost. I am a much better person today than I was before all of this, so there is that as well.

This is how I view it, generally speaking.

The marriage we had pre-A, is dead and gone. I ended it the day I broke my vows and betrayed my wife. It cannot get "better" or "work" because it does not exist. We aren't divorced, so we may be "still married" on paper, but the marriage itself is over. I think it can be difficult for people to accept this point of view on an emotional level. We want the marriage we thought we had when we fell in love and rushed off to live our lives together.

Any relationship, marriage or otherwise, that we have moving forward, is something new we are building together. And this time around, we have a much clearer picture of who we both are, what we want in a relationship (and what we don't).

After many years of therapy, struggle and hard work, my emotional and mental self is much healthier. So much of who I was and how I lived my life was built on shame and fear and trauma. I did not love myself and had no idea how to love others, no idea what a healthy relationship even is, because it was never modeled for me. My wife also has worked through IC on her own, and MC with me, and she too has learned many things about herself, dealt with some old emotional issues, and has grown a lot in terms of vulnerability and her ability to "detach" from things that shouldn't affect her life.

So, can two people, who have worked hard and grown as individuals, and also worked hard and have grown as a couple, build something new together that is better than what they had before, using what they've learned, and having made conscious decisions about what they relationship looks like?

Look, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that any of this ever goes away or becomes okay. Trauma is a scar that never goes away, you just learn to work with it.

And if my wife changed her mind one day and decided to divorce me, it would STILL be a better working relationship than we had before, because we're different people now. We can have the hard talks and not avoid conflict. The trauma that kept us from living our best, authentic lives has been addressed, and we have new tools for both joy and conflict. We know each other, and ourselves, so much better now than we ever had before in our lives. Life isn't always rosy, but we've seen improved relationships with family, friends and work, because who we are inside has changed fundamentally.

I dunno. Think of it as a kitchen remodel. You can never get back the kitchen you had, and that's okay, because even though you may have fond memories of time spent in that kitchen, it wasn't really ever working the way you wanted it to, so you destroyed it. It is gone. But you CAN build a new kitchen, having learned lessons from the old kitchen, and build it so that it is much more functional and has what you needed all along. The process of remodeling is endless, expensive and messy, so you have to decide if you are willing to put in that time, money and effort when just leaving and buying a new house is also an option. But with a new house, you have to take an already established kitchen, it could suck as much as the old one. At least with the rebuild, you know where you stand. And if it still sucks, moving is still an option. But putting that much time and effort into something you are building changes you, in a good way.

As the song says, "Today is where your book begins, the rest is still unwritten".

About 10 years ago I was a moderator on an infidelity board. We had some married couples posting at the same time and I had an opportunity to converse with about 6 of them. They had reconciled their marriages, and in each case there was a issue of perception. The betrayers were giddy about their marriages. It was never better, I feel so loved, I love so much more.... However, the betrayed had a different message. They would state that things were OK, they have good days and bad days, a lot of depression.....

So while a marriage can survive, I have found the two sides have entirely different perspectives about it all.

Think of it as a kitchen remodel. You can never get back the kitchen you had, and that's okay, because even though you may have fond memories of time spent in that kitchen, it wasn't really ever working the way you wanted it to, so you destroyed it. It is gone. But you CAN build a new kitchen, having learned lessons from the old kitchen, and build it so that it is much more functional and has what you needed all along. The process of remodeling is endless, expensive and messy, so you have to decide if you are willing to put in that time, money and effort when just leaving and buying a new house is also an option. But with a new house, you have to take an already established kitchen, it could suck as much as the old one. At least with the rebuild, you know where you stand. And if it still sucks, moving is still an option. But putting that much time and effort into something you are building changes you, in a good way.

I would tweak this analogy a bit by saying that:

1. More than likely the old kitchen was a very nice place full of sunlight with lots of cooking areas and nice appliances. Many wonderful memories of cooking delicious family food were built there.

For some unknown reason the WS found themselves dissatisfied with this kitchen. Maybe a batch of cookies were burned. Or it didn't have the latest new fangled air fryer in it. They were envious of a neighbor's kitchen because it had more granite countertops. Or maybe because they were bored with nice things, a la the Joker.

2. Not only did the WS take a blowtorch to that nice kitchen one day, but they also severely injured the BS who was just innocently cooking yet another nice meal.

3. Now the old kitchen has been demolished, the insurance company is unwilling to allow a claim to be filed, the bank account has been depleted, and the loyal home cook is in the regional burn center fighting for their life with third degree burns - unable to rebuild a new kitchen, even if they wanted to after so deliberate an attack. When they finally return to the home after skin grafts, hyperbaric treatments, and endless physical therapy they find their mental energies so drained by PTSD, they are unsure whether they even want to live in this home anymore, let alone commence an expensive and seemingly futile remodeling project for what was previously a perfectly nice place to cook and eat.

4. But ever the loyal soldier, the horribly disfigured BS agrees to give it a shot. Along the way, as their physical energy drags and the remodeling project stretches out with endless delays, fits and starts, maybe another small act of sabotage by the WS, they start to have second thoughts about the whole thing. Maybe, they think, I would be perfectly happy with a small and modest kitchen of my own where I could cook for myself.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:39 AM, April 30th (Friday)]

Hi Patty.

So reconciled here too many years to count. My Wife had a EA/PA with some guy she met online and I did not find out about it until after the A ended. Just so you get my perspective.

Too many variables to address a one fits all situation. I've seen scenarios similar to mine that did not end the same, but I can share my experience.

My M works today because my W and I both put a lot of effort into understanding ourselves and each other. We learned how to not be co-dependent. We learned that vulnerable communication does not have to be scary or end in tears. We learned to appreciate each other more and forgive each others transgressions and faults.

My M definitely "works" to use your term, but I would go a step beyond that. I told my W very early on that if I don't get a better life out of this in the end I don't see the point. It took me awhile to understand that I had as much to do with that as my W did. It takes two people really working on being their best selves first then figuring out if we want to build a new M together. The old M always dies and the new one has to be built in its place.

For you right now the best thing you can do is go to an IC and dig into the why question until you and your IC feel you have it answered. The cognitive dissonance you feel between your self image and your past actions are going to keep you from getting deeper. Sometimes we have to be honest with ourselves and acknowledge this gap. It takes courage to do that and to a lot of us it feels very unnatural. When something feels uncomfortable focus on that. That feeling is a key tip off that you need to examine why those feelings, thoughts or actions make you uncomfortable.

Do "most" work ? To me the question is irrelevant. My M works and honestly I am happier that a pig in sh** most days. I am not joking. Why ? It because I am living in my authentic self and happy with my life. My M adds to that already happy life. If some day it it does not I likely will make changes. I am in charge of my life and only I have to live in it.

JMHO. Most M don't work for one main reason. One or more of the people in the relationship don't have the skills to admit their shortcomings and do the very painful work of self discovery and self forgiveness. Only once the individuals have grown can an authentic reconciliation begin.

The thing is sometimes that activity makes you realize that the M is where you want your future to be and that is OK. Further trying R is not wasted because you learn new skills along the way that make you a better partner in the future. Once you learn how to ask for your needs to be met then you can begin to negotiate M 2.0. It is blank canvass and as long as it leaves room for two individuals to be themselves AND a couple that gets you half way there. From there it is trial and error. Fits and starts. Essentially you make it up as you go along until one day . . .WTF ! I am happy

It is a slow, painful, confusing process, but for me it has been so worth it. I look in the mirror today and see a sparkle in my eyes. A light there was not there before. I invested years to get there, but I did.

I think that is why my W works. I am happy on most days and that rubs off on those around me.

Mine didn't, but I/we spent a lot of time trying to R. There are still many success stories here at SI.

Looks like you are looking for a crystal ball answer -- to see where you might land.

There are no guarantees but it's up to you and your BS to decide on whether the commitment and hard work of R is what you both want.

I can tell you for sure that any minute lack of total honesty in the process will undermine your own efforts of R. And if you have it in your mind that what he doesn't know won't hurt -- then you are destined to fail at R.

Have you told BH EVERYTHING, and I mean everything? Even if your BS hasn't asked. You need to completely pull the covers off the affair. When you have nothing left to hide, and I mean nothing, you can begin to rebuild. Please take it from someone with first-hand experience, a Madhatter whose wife was selective in what to come clean on.

Time to be a grownup!

[This message edited by MyAndI at 11:21 AM, April 30th (Friday)]