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Emotions are never wrong. Whatever you are feeling now is ok. The anger may come later. I think a lot of people say the anger hit them at about 6 months post-dday.

Your CH probably wants you to be angry because he's comfortable with anger. He's probably not comfortable with hurt. Most men aren't. That's something he'll have to work on. He needs to take complete responsibility for his actions and the pain he has caused you.

TX and GMC, I just listened to that podcast. It was mildly interesting, but I don't understand the purpose. He says to think about ways to be considerate rather than codependent, but it seems very vague. I don't think my fch will know what to do from that.

I did realize from listening to it that what my fch did last night was classic codependence. He wanted to tell me what I wanted to hear rather than tell me his truth.

He surprised me last night when he got home from work. He had a list of things he wanted to talk about with me. We prayed together (which we never do) and then we had a long needed conversation. Yes emotions were high and I was crying but I think he heard me for the first time. He has been seeing me upset and kind of avoiding it. this time he listened and I was able to get it out. tell him the things I need to help me through this.

He told me to pray about the things I wanted to know and that if I still want answers after that he would give them to me. So today I have to figure out what is truly important and what is not. And then also write down the things I need from him to make this work. Today I feel like progress is being made, I know we are know where out of the woods yet but headed towards light.

We rarely prayed together before DDay. I completely underestimated the power of praying TOGETHER. I am happy to see y’all made a few moves toward healing !!!

this time he listened and I was able to get it out. tell him the things I need to help me through this.

This is a huge positive step! I am happy to hear you had a good long talk and will continue to talk.

That's wonderful, HB83!

I talked with my fch last night, too. I told him I was extremely bothered by his seemingly blase attitude to lying. He said the problem was that I asked him how he felt. He has a hard time with feelings. He hadn't thought about how he felt about our son lying. He thought he answered my question by saying he didn't know. When I asked, "It doesn't bother you?" he took it as an accusation, got defensive, and shut down. Apparently, if I had asked what he thought instead of what he felt, I would've gotten a different answer. I'm not sure I believe that. (I'm not sure I asked how he felt. I don't remember the exact words I used.)

Anyway, I can't possibly know every little thing that triggers him. It's not my responsibility to fix that, either. He has to learn to handle his triggers in a healthy way. Stonewalling is not one of them. According to Gottman, stonewalling is a huge indicator of future divorce.

I gave him some examples of things he could've said instead of shutting down. He could've told me he didn't like the tone of my 2nd question. He was getting defensive. He could've told me that he didn't know how he felt, but he does think lying is wrong.

It's like he has no idea how to have a conversation. I asked what he talks to his dad about because he's the only person I know of that he talks to. He said work, kids, regular daily life stuff. Nothing really meaningful or profound. He asked me if I have deep, philosophical discussions. I said that, yes, we do. We talk about feelings. We talk about the whys of things, thoughts, ideas, opinions, feelings, attitudes, politics, religion, relationships, all of it. It's so hard for me to comprehend that everyone doesn't do that.

TX:

I feel like our MC sessions are more like "how's it going" than "here's a plan for you..... Both she and my IC never asked WH if he was telling the truth..... They both kept asking me why I wouldn't believe him....They also both wanted me to stop with my investigation, never realizing that it's the PTSD and LIES that made me continue. Not because I thought it was fun.

Me too. I'm now only seeking folks with trauma focus or sex addiction focus (even tho my WH is probably "borderline" on sex addiction).

At 6 weeks post DDay 1 I was still a pile of snot in the fetal position

Hell, I was still in this position at 6 months (and still get those "code red' triggers every now & again) .

We are 100% on the same page as to wedding rings. He wore that ring whilst touching another woman’s vajayay, so I asked him to take it off. Took him 6 months. I won’t wear mine and don’t want to pass them down either (bad juju). On dday I wasn’t sure where to put mine, so I put them in a bottle of – beano! Yup, the anti gas meds. They are still in there. It seems appropriate.

Coco+5: I’d not listened to the podcast – just searched for it after TX suggestion, so thanks for the cliff notes!

My WH did something similar with DD – but months after dday. He actually TOLD her to tell a lie. And what was even more fucked up was the truth was better for her anyhow! I remember being so slammed by it – like, hey asshat! Have you not learned one single fucking thing here?

I swear our WH’s could be twins – same shit on not saying what he means, etc. Before dday I felt annoyed, but after dday it feels life threatening. It really gets to me – I don’t understand why anyone wants to be married to someone they cannot be honest with. I think they are terrified they are unlovable – so being honest with their thoughts/feelings – EVEN TO THEMSELVES – is like asking them to grow a third arm. And I think that’s why they get so defensive, like they hate themselves for whatever, so they just ASSUME that even the most benign questions must be about attacking / hating them. Or, I could be full of shit.

And feelings? Same stuff. He had to get a feelings chart and instead of embracing it as a way to learn, he pretty much saw it as yet another way he’s a failure. Not helpful.

I gotta say that as time goes on and I am able to gain some clarity and see this shit from a different perspective, I can’t imagine how awful that must be for them. I’m sure compartmentalizing goes a REALLY long way on this front. I’m not so good at compartmentalizing, so it would eat me alive.

It's so hard for me to comprehend that everyone doesn't do that.

I HATE the gender sterotyping that goes on generally - and esp on SI, but I do think this TENDS to be a male thing. Tho I like to think it's changing. I do have men in my life/family who have deep/profound conversations. I used to think I had them with WH.... now I wonder if I was just projecting what I wanted to see in him.

Hearbroken:

I think I need to start doing stuff for me instead of always waiting around for him. I have to learn to take care of me instead of always worrying about what he is going to think or feel about it. I made him dinner on our anniversary because I didn't want him to feel unloved but he ended up making me feel unloved instead.

THIS. Totally this. 10000000% this.

Gentle suggestion: You say you have ‘forgiven’ him. There’s a great book called “How Can I Forgive You” by Janis Spring (she also wrote “after the affair” which I do NOT recommend). "How Can I Forgive" helped me quite a bit. The actual semantics don’t matter so much, but she differentiates between “acceptance” and “genuine forgiveness”. Acceptance is coming to terms (or a form of forgiveness) w/o any input from the offending party. “Genuine Forgiveness” is EARNED by the offending party. Both can provide the mental health benefits of ‘forgiveness’ that are always flouted about (and she talks about that quite a bit too). There's a chapter for the offending party that discusses the hurt they've caused and has a list of things for them to work on. I got this book from the library (bonus! NOTHING to do with infidelity, so no shame at the counter!) and I liked it so much I bought several used copies. I use things I learned there in lots of places other than my M. It’s one of my top 10 most helpful post dday books.

Wow – I started this post before I read your post from this AM. I am really glad that he came home and opened up to you. That is something my WH still hasn’t really done. I would want to be clear that the list of my wants/needs may change – as you cycle through this rollercoaster - anger may still be on the agenda, and it can be completely overwhelming (frankly, calling it "anger" doesn't cut it... "rage" is better, but for me it was more like red hot blinding rage).

Yesterday went well. Didn't do the stuff I wanted to (like writing thank you letters - and I think he wanted to do that too). It was basically a really good, relaxing day of rugsweeping. And that's Ok. It was a day to allow ourselves to just be together and I'm glad we did. I had some triggering stuff, but managed to remain composed and didn't bring it up to him. His deadline for written timeline is coming up, and trainwreck DD is taking up a fair amount of our emotional bandwidth, so who knows what's ahead.

It's FUCKING beautiful Sunday out there, so I hope I can find some time to be outdoors.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 10:42 AM, September 15th, 2019 (Sunday)]

Just wanted to send you ladies big hugs and love.

Have a peaceful day sprinkled with joy.

I read After the Affair. Absolutely worthless use of my time. I burned it for kindling in my chimnea

I HATE the gender sterotyping that goes on generally - and esp on SI, but I do think this TENDS to be a male thing.

I agree, but I thought that was mainly with the older generations. I thought my generation had moved past that. Like I said, the deep, meaningful, philosophical talks I have are with my dad. He's an old man, but he can do it.

I think my fch's father trained it out of him. He told my fch flat out that boys don't cry. I didn't know people still said that stupid shit. Traditional is not healthy, imo.

I sent my fch a feelings wheel and some info on how to identify emotions by where you feel them in the body. I honestly don't know if he will ever be able to get in touch with his feelings. Not only did he have his early childhood training to suppress his feelings, but he's in the military now. You cannot have feelings and do your job effectively in the military.

Just catching up after a busy weekend.

I have a BD and anniversary coming up and am blah about them both. WH fucked AP the day after my BD party last year [which was only days from our anniversary]. The party that made me feel special. I want to pretend they both don't exist.

But may I say FUCK MONDAYS.

Chaos, so many hugs to you! Try to do something special for yourself, esp on your birthday. Sucks so much that these days/memories are ruined.

Next week he has to go on a business trip. I’m already stressed out and anxious about it. It’s the last thing he wants to do now. He’s put off this trip for a few weeks now but he really has to go. I get it, it’s work and i like his paycheck a lot. But where he goes on his business trip is where he met the OW (aka: Psycho). I’m not actually worried about him meeting up with her because he hates her and she also now lives just 10 minutes away from us (she goes between both states). But it is still going to be a huge trigger.

I can track his phone, he checks in all the time now and I’m sure will while he’s away. But I’m still so anxious. Any tips for me to get through those 4-5 days he’s away?

Just tried again to find a therapist near me. It's impossible. Even if I did find someone taking new patients who has weekend hours, my insurance won't cover couples counseling. We can't afford to pay for it.

yes Chaos..FUCK Mondays, & FUCK all Anniversary's with STBXWH's!!!!!

I'm claiming mine back with a girls night out, Dressing the hell up, FULL makeup, Dancing OUR arses off, Maybe I will even drink to get drunk as I will be surrounded by ALL my FAV GIRLS. They won't ever leave me behind or send me home

I'm so so sorry some of you are struggling atm, I can't give advice but I can send out virtual (((((hugs))))) to you all.

I will share this quote with all you lush ladies, my DIL gave it to me in a frame

Its not my job to fix others,

Its okay for me to say NO,

Its not my job to take responsibility for others,

Its not my job to anticipate other peoples needs,

Nobody has to agree with me,

I am responsible for my own happiness,

I have a right to my own feelings,

I have a right to express my needs honestly,

I am & will always be enough.

ETA, claim those days back by doing something for you, YOU definitely deserve it,

[This message edited by BigBlueEyes at 9:29 AM, September 16th (Monday)]

Any tips for me to get through those 4-5 days he’s away?

Stay busy? Surround yourself with friends? Maybe someone could stay with you while he's away.

Try to remember that you can't control him no matter where he is. If he's going to do something he shouldn't, he's going to do it regardless of where he is. Idk if that helps anyone else, but it helps me.

((Chaos))

I will be busy most days with work and my kids. He leaves Sunday morning and I’ll spend the day with the kids and my parents. Maybe do some retail therapy.

Its the nights that are going to be hard. We already said we will FaceTime and maybe even fall asleep on the phone. That is kind of a joke since we used to fall asleep on the phone while dating (pre- cell phones of course).

I also do tell myself that he can do something wherever he is, any time of the day. It’s mostly just a major trigger since was only with Psycho when he was away.

Heartbroken - That's a step in the right direction, I hope he continues to walk that way with you. I will say that in my experience, any defensiveness equaled places where there was lies. So watch, be open if you'd like, and just let him start doing his work.

Coco - The lying is so big. They do it for so many years that they don't realize how ingrained it is. My WH can talk to my kids about how hurtful lies are but then turned around and told me lies for years. Mind blowing really. There's actually a video out there (backed up by a recent study) about how the brain literally changes when lies are told. Little lies break down the part of you that reacts emotionally to lies (telling you that it is wrong) and eventually you don't react anymore. It's how they continued to lie to us and not care.

GMC - I've wondering the same thing about my WH (the borderline sex addict thing). Mine had escalating behavior that I didn't know about. It was kept in check bc he's both cheap and not sexually aggressive with people in real life, but as soon as he ran across a sexually aggressive real life person who gave it away for free, he had not limits and couldn't stop himself even when the shame was growing bigger and affecting him more and more. It's harder to find someone who REALLY works with these populations. They all say they do, but I don't think most are REALLY well versed. Glad the BBQ day went well. I've been thinking about you and your DD.

TallGirl - Saw that Tallgirl show on Netflix last night and thought of you. :)

20YearsBS - Yes, After the Affair is shit. Most of them are actually. I hate with a passion the Good People Have Affairs (don't remember the exact title). It literally tells the WS to keep both relationships and see which one is better. I cannot stand BS blamers. I WILL NOT take any responsibility for his A and the marriage IMO isn't to blame either. I've told WH a million times that while I can understand the CONTEXT of how he got to such a place where he had the A, I WILL NEVER understand how he actually stuck his dick in someone else thinking that would make anything better. It's funny. We broke up in college for a semester when he studied abroad (his choice since he hadn't dated anyone else but me and wanted to be "free"). During that time, my old HS boyfriend came back into the picture and I spent an evening with him. I was free to do whatever I wanted, and when I lay down on a bed with this old boyfriend, and felt his erection? I pushed him away and said "I just can't do this. I love someone else. I can't sleep with you." Did I physically want to? Sure. But emotionally I knew that it would make me feel like I cheated - and I didn't want to do that. EVEN THOUGH WE WEREN'T TOGETHER and didn't even have a promise to get back together. I just don't have it in me and cannot understand how he did it.

On feelings - I agree that it's a male thing. It's rare when a male is open from the get go. My WH's family did not and still do not share feelings. Therapy is for people who are not strong enough or just crazy. Perfection is expected. My WH has a feeling wheel and uses it every night when he journals. I haven't read his journal, but he said he writes down three things he is grateful for and also uses feeling words to describe some feelings that he had that day. It takes practice for them, but I see a difference. We both try to use feeling words with each other actually. Just last night we are watching the Marvelous Ms. Maisel (still catching up) and she and her WH have sex. It brought up A LOT of feelings for both of us (since we don't touch much and the sex we've had has happened twice and was NOT in any way connective). Afterwards we both identified what different parts of the episode made us feel. It's a good exercise for them when they try to suppress any negative emotions and have their whole lives.

((CHAOS)) Birthdays and anniversaries suck. I hate all birthdays bc of the A too (he and she celebrated each other's birthdays multiple days and ways the entire A basically). I hate that the As take away a day that should be special and just ours to celebrate. I'm sorry you are having to deal with it and hope you are planning ways to enjoy the birthday that your bad-ass Chaos self deserves.

DaisyAnne - Since you guys are relatively fresh into this hellhole, I think that he should make sure to do things like sharing itineraries, texting updates of his location/happenings, etc. As for the evenings, definitely call you when he's in for the night. FaceTime, and if you feel like it will help, just leave the phone or FaceTime on while you both sleep. WH used to travel a ton before DDay 1 but pulled WAY back on it after. When he travels, we do the above. He also puts in safeguards regarding his work colleagues (since his A was with a cOWhore) about staying in separate hotels, not sharing cabs or cars with a single woman, no solo drinks, meals, etc. I know his schedule, and he texts throughout the day to tell me he's thinking about me, etc. Could he still cheat? Of course. But those little things did help to reassure me at the beginning that he was in fact focusing on lessening my anxiety. Oh and he was not drinking either. He will only drink with me now. No drinking in mixed company when I'm not around. No drinking on work trips at all. His A started the physical stuff when he and his cOWhore were drunk. The next physical thing was also when drunk. And then the sex happened (for the first time) when drunk as well. Drinking does not make for good decisions.

I made the mistake last night of watching the 20/20 on Jennair Gardot (or whatever the spelling is). The woman who killed her husband's mistress and herself last year in Pennsylvania. It was heartbreaking (and very triggering) to see the obsessive behavior (tracking/phones/etc) and her brokenness. And her WH is now writing a book about it and will profit off his handiwork. Is it his fault that the murders happened? No, but I 1000% think he could have stopped her from getting to that place.

I almost told my WH last night that I wanted a divorce. I just wonder sometimes if this is just a dealbreaker and I'm pushing off the inevitable because I do love him and don't want to break up our family.

Speaking of which, my 14 yo son got into words with WH the other day (he's a sullen teenager who didn't want to clean up his room). When I was talking to son after, he told me he didn't respect his father because he cheated on me. Ugh. I hate that my WH did this. I hate that my kids know. It was a hard discussion with DS trying to tell him that while I understand, he still has to be "respectful" to his parent. And that his dad loves him and is trying to earn back all of our respect and working hard to be a better person every day. WH then went and had a discussion with him too (which went well). Hard day all around (WH was really hit with the shame when I told him about the conversation with DS.) I felt both empathetic towards WH (he feels enormous guilt about exposing DS and me to this shitstorm) and also like I wanted to hit him for doing this. Oh the infidelity mindfuck strikes again.

I'm off to meet my friends to see the movie Hustlers. I'm sure it will be awful and trigger me in some way, but I can't stay home in my hideyhole forever!

Hope you all have a good day in spite of it being FUCKING MONDAY!

Chaos, my wh did the same, on my birthday and on our 24th anniversary, that was a nice feather in his cap.

I don't think I will ever forget that. amongst many many many other things.

I feel ya about the anniversaries. Sigh.

2 days after my bday this year I found out skanklet had been sending him messages and he omitted that, also that he was text flirting with some other dumb twat, 1 week after my bday this year was DDay2. 4 days after D filing was 6 yr wedding anniversary.

Kinda hoping I will get D decree on 1 year DDay1 anniversary so that day can turn around a little.

Agree with everybody - FACK Mondays.

Just hugs all around to all of you today!!

Hi all,

I’m new to here on the recommendation from Ellie. Can anyone answer a few questions: how can I stop myself hating my new WH? Will I ever be able to look at him again?

It’s been 3 months since the bombshell and I haven’t yet had any special days or anniversaries to contend with. My DD is 3 shortly and this is going to be difficult. I have been through the whole pick me dance for a couple of weeks (in the beginning) I have now implemented the 180 and NC and feel better for it most of the time. I have read up on the WS fog and it almost describes my WH to the letter. Does anyone have any tips on actual WS fog or just manipulation on his part?

Someone said to me today: it’s nice to be important (WH) but it’s more important to be nice!