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I recall during the affair there were times during sex where he wouldn’t ejaculate after I had an orgasm. This was kind of frustrating for me. I didn’t know he was having an affair at the time but now looking back I’m frustrated because I am making up stories in my head that he just preferred finishing with his AP.

Reading this looks like this happen to me too, I dont know it is/was a physical problem or a disorder regarding that he was not really horny about me , or even guiltiness...but this made me feel very bad and makes me now connect with the cheatings ... Now I am feeling the last person on earth, cause I just discover the cheating (12/10/2022). My situation is that he cheated me not just with one A, he was going out with several women..via ashley madison...and had 2 at least that last little longer. He say it was just distraction from his feeling of being a loser...and that the hunt was more than the catch....
I wanna ask some WS their opinion on that?

Howcthappen - I did not notice any difference in this between sex with W or AP. On the occasions when I could not finish it was I think due to causes unrelated to the A.

Trilobyte--

the hunt was more than the catch

For me it was all about the catch.

Do you realize how much you gave up and lost? In my case my Fwh AP was not attractive and not his normal type. This freaks me out.
He doesn’t know the answer when I ask him this:

Did you decide to cheat and go looking for an easy catch OR did you meet her and then decide to cheat?

I’m asking any wS here to try to answer this?

For me I wonder if was something about this unattractive plain Jane that triggered some sort of electricity? I’m so baffled.

HowctHappen

In my case, my AP was an old gf. I had dated her in my 20’s and hadn’t spoken to her for over 20 years. She messaged me on FB one day and, well you can figure out what the eventual outcome of that was.

I didn’t get into things with the intent on having an A. But little by little I stepped closer and closer to that line before jumping over it. To this day, my decision still baffles me. You see, I always sneered at people who cheated. How weak someone had to be if they couldn’t keep it zipped up.

In the looks department, my AP was average. The only striking difference between my W and the AP is that my AP has big boobs where my wife is average. That didn’t play a part in my decision to cheat though. I think the familiarity with my AP made it easier. When we dated, it wasn’t a very good time in my life and I ended up ghosting her. I always had some guilt about that so maybe that played a part in things too.

Howcthappen

Did you decide to cheat and go looking for an easy catch OR did you meet her and then decide to cheat?

It was always the former. I was continuously looking, with the intent to cheat. None of the "catches" were easy. Looking back, I believe they were all damaged in one way or another, else they'd have never fallen for my bs. I took advantage of them and I will always feel deeply ashamed for that.

Do you realize how much you gave up and lost? In my case my Fwh AP was not attractive and not his normal type. This freaks me out.
He doesn’t know the answer when I ask him this:

Did you decide to cheat and go looking for an easy catch OR did you meet her and then decide to cheat?

I’m asking any wS here to try to answer this?

For me I wonder if was something about this unattractive plain Jane that triggered some sort of electricity? I’m so baffled.

Baffled?? You're assuming the wrong things. Look, my affair had nothing to do with my AP. It was about me filling a hole. That she played me as well to fill her own need is another matter.

You need to start asking the right questions.

My affair was never about the sex for me. It was about living a fantasy where I was clever, and smart, and had my shit together, and successful and give me all your attention to feed my need for that.

Don't focus on her or her looks. You need to understand what he was missing or going through.

I spent a lot of time trying to understand that. I am better for it today. Not everyone likes to turn over those rocks.

Question for WSs. My H says that he was not really attracted to the AP. She was older than me and when I saw an online picture of her I thought she was not attractive at all. That was why I agreed to let him hire her as his secretary, if she had been pretty I probably would have said no, find someone else. He said that he liked the attention but also the hooking up. He said it made him feel like a "big shot" which he acknowledges is pretty pathetic. He keeps saying it was all about the attention and the hooking up for him. Neither of us know what her intention was. She would only go so far (just kissing and getting "felt up"). It happened about 15 times, in the office. He said she would stop and say "is this bad what we are doing?….". He wouldn’t really respond to this question when she would ask. He thought she was just in it for the hooking up too but if she was only in it for the hooking up why wouldn’t she go further? Wouldn’t a grown woman just go ahead and have sex in that case. He most definitely wanted to go further, He said he tried repeatedly but she wasn’t willing. Why was she doing it then? She was married but reportedly unhappy, implied that her husband might be gay. She was also upset her husband didn’t have much money. Was this just a classic con job to try to get a rich husband? He says she kissed him first (don’t they all say that) and she did this after she knew I was suspicious that they were flirting and I was trying to get her fired. Was she just trying to be sure she didn’t lose her job by upping the ante? He still did force her to go work for someone else a few months after the hooking up started. Then she quit so it was obvious she just wanted to work for him. My H insists that there was never any discussion of a future whatsoever. She was very down and out so I do think he would have had trouble turning her into an actual wife. She had no money or education and lived with her H and a schizophrenic brother. It sounded like quite a miserable existence. Is it possible my husband is telling the truth about only wanting the hookups and attention or is he lying and this was actually some sort of true love romance. There were no texts or emails because he could always see her at work so didn’t need to get in touch with her at night as that would just have raised suspicion. Just so confused whether or not to believe him. He has admitted a bunch of shitty things - like wanting to sleep with her and not really feeling much guilt because he compartmentalized it and blamed it on our lack of sex and justified it by saying she started it. He admits he was a complete scumbag in this regard. It was seven years ago. He admits it could have gone on longer if I didn’t force him to fire her. So was he really in love with this woman and is just lying now to save face or was he just using her?

Unfortunately, there's no way to read his mind. Either scenario is possible. However, given his willingness to throw her under the bus and buy her off -- plus the fact that he was concerned she'd take legal action when spurned -- I lean to the side of "just using her."

As far as why she didn't sleep with him, she may have been convincing herself that she "wasn't really cheating" on her BH if there was no sexual intercourse. She may have thought she could get more out of your WS by dangling the bait. Or she just might not like sex very much. Again, hard to say for sure.

Bulcy Thank you for your response. Can I ask why the default lie? Like lied to cover up the cheating, other mistakes, I can sort of understand the rationale. But why the need for the default lie if there is nothing to hide?

Something that has been plaguing me for weeks: at what point after D-Day do Waywards start empathizing for what the BS is going through? At what point do they stop seeing past the consequences that they themselves are suffering and start seeing what their BS or kids have had to suffer? If they’re not in IC, is there any hope of this ever happening?

Every time I see WH now it seems he is normal, acting the part of a responsible and caring father, etc. I don’t think he’s in IC anymore (seems he stopped after a month). He told me a month after D-day that he’s "moved past remorse and has now accepted what he’s done". If I’m honest I hope he was lying bc he deserves to suffer what DD and I have suffered x 10000000. Was he lying, is he just acting like he’s OK bc he doesn’t want to deal with the shame? And if the latter, what are some signs that he is actually suffering and ashamed for what he’s done? I can’t fathom that he can be totally OK after the collateral damage that he inflicted.

I have a quick question. I wonder if the answer is as quick.

I understand the compartmentalization... I understand that one must lie to not be found out.

But how did you lie to your spouse? how did you not feel awful about it? How were you able to do it without knowing you were hurting the person you made your vows to? If I lie I feel so bad. MY WH lied to me for 3 years. every day. I just don't get it.. doesn't ti just become second nature? he said he felt trapped. HE didn't want to hurt me... and that he loved me and didnt want to leave me.

I dont believe he loved me cos he would have stopped it if he did. He wouldn't have lied and if he felt so trapped I mean she wasn't holding a gun to his head...

ITs all lies... I know he is trying to not look deep because it would blow up his whole idea he is trying to keep of himself as being a "good person" as he keeps saying.. But he is not. What he did is not in any way good.

He also says I know who he is... but I dont. not after what he did... how can he imagine that I know him? maybe the most as a person because we have been together for so long.. But I dont know this person anymore...

Hi Squish

IDK if there are different types of compartmentalization but for me, my A and home life were truly separate. I was checked out of my marriage and had a wicked sense of self entitlement. I felt some pangs of guilt over the A but my wife had moved to a distant second over my AP. That was how I managed to justify the A in my head for so long. Its hard to describe the disconnect that existed between me, my wife, my marriage and my AP. As is often said here, I really was living a double life in my head. I had my AP over here and my wife over there. The AP was the fun exciting side of things and my wife was the more boring and stable side.

I know he is trying to not look deep because it would blow up his whole idea he is trying to keep of himself as being a "good person"

I can relate to this statement after a fashion. I had this self image of who I thought I was and would sneer at anyone who cheated. I was above all of that after all. Only losers cheated of course. Naturally I know different now. I wasn't a good guy at all. Failing to recognize how shitty and selfish my behavior really was culminating in me having an A.

What is worrisome about this is the longer he maintains this self deception, the more damage he is going to inflict. He is still looking at things from his perspective. He is still not seeing you and the pain you're going through. This was quite tricky for me too. I had to start looking at situations through my wife's eyes. If I do this or that, how will it impact her? Will it help her or just push us further apart.

he said he felt trapped.

Just an excuse. As you pointed out, no one held a gun to his head and he could have stopped but chose not to.

But I dont know this person anymore...

You know him better than you think. You now know what he is capable of and how deep his self deception runs. The issue you're having is this flies directly in the face of the person you thought he was. Its very difficult to come to terms with that.

doublerainbow,

Can I ask why the default lie?

Most of the time it was not even a conscious decision. I would just lie. Not necessarily only to BS. I would fire out a lie before I even gave it real thought. I knew I was telling lies, but did it anyway. I felt that protecting my own view of what people thought of me was important. Denial of any wrong doing fed this need to be liked or respected.

But why the need for the default lie if there is nothing to hide?

|There usually was something. usually something small and easy to sort out should I have been honest. It could have been as simple as "Have you sent that e-mail to XYZ?". I would say yes, knowing I hadn't. Then send the mail. Of course, there were bigger lies.

at what point after D-Day do Waywards start empathizing for what the BS is going through?

A difficult one to answer for others, but for me it was a long time before I felt anything like true empathy. I saw BS was upset and this made me feel bad. Not bad enough to truly see what she was going through. I hid from any real feelings. I've often said I only have three feelings - Angry, Sad and Happy. Recently I've been exploring real feelings and it had often sent me into shame spirals. o be honest, I resented my BS being upset. I wanted her to "get over it" and for us to be able to rug sweep. I had to work on finding true empathy and I'm still working on getting there.

If they’re not in IC, is there any hope of this ever happening?

For me, it's not just a case of being in IC. If a WS has a shit counsellor then they might never get there. Equally even with the best IC in the country, if the WS is not getting it and refusing to do the work, then they're never going to get there. I had to get my head out of my arse and and start doing he work. My choice and my decision. Yes, this process would be sped up with a decent IC.

Every time I see WH now it seems he is normal, acting the part of a responsible and caring father, etc. I don’t think he’s in IC anymore (seems he stopped after a month). He told me a month after D-day that he’s "moved past remorse and has now accepted what he’s done". If I’m honest I hope he was lying bc he deserves to suffer what DD and I have suffered x 10000000. Was he lying, is he just acting like he’s OK bc he doesn’t want to deal with the shame? And if the latter, what are some signs that he is actually suffering and ashamed for what he’s done? I can’t fathom that he can be totally OK after the collateral damage that he inflicted.

Quite a lot to unpack here. I can't speak for you WS. I am expert at pretending everything is normal. I latch onto small wins or us having a good day and then focus on this. I think things are good and therefor the relationship is happy and back to normal. Of course, "Normal" is not what we're working on. We're working on "New" and "better". I struggle with this, even now I fail to work on myself as often as I should. The work is hard and now that I'm trying to tune into my feelings thinking about what I've done in the past, hurts and I struggle with dealing with this new pain. Certainly, thinking "you're done" after a month, is not true. From my experience and from other on this forum, it takes years of work. Was he lying? To himself certainly. He may think he is good, but it's highly likely that this is him telling himself he is so he can rug sweep and move on. I don't know this is true for certain, but, as I said, I'm thinking this from my perspective.

Signs of feeling ashamed or remorse are difficult. The most obvious is him doing the work and showing you he's made changes. I think it's easy to pretend, say the right things and rug sweep. Only when I truly felt remorse did I ever really show it. Initially this was shutting down and shame spiralling. Now, hopefully, I'm dealing with emotions better and I'm spiralling less.

I'm not sure I'll ever be truly OK, I will always be ashamed of my behaviour and there will always be situations of triggering that we will have to deal with.

If your BS told you that they would love you and work at the marriage but that they could never trust you again what would you do?

I know I will never let myself trust my husband again after finding out the type of deception he was capable of.

I really don’t care that he’s doing the right things now…..I will never believe he won’t try it again.

I have said this explicitly but I’m wondering how you’d feel if your BS said it to you.

HowctHappen

If I was truly committed to the marriage and had my head completely out of my ass, it would motivate me to try even harder. To prove via my actions over time, that I’m worthy of your trust again.

I would understand that the trust would never be 100%. But over time my consistent actions would allow you some measure of peace, happiness and feeling safe in the relationship.

My WH is actually pretty realistic about this from what I can gather from our conversations. He lied to me for 7 years about the extent of his "thing" with his secretary. The one time kiss that he did not return was unfortunately a complete fabrication. We discussed this hundreds of times over the last 7 years and he lied every time - until strangely this summer the truth came out. How much of the truth- how would I every know?

I would have to be brain dead to ever trust him 100% and he knows that and seems to accept it.

I read somewhere about breaking the concept of trust up and I find that helpful.

- I trust him to provide for our family
- I pretty much trust him never to cheat again
- I trust that he loves me
- I trust him to care for me in my old age

But I don’t think I could ever trust that he might not bend the truth. He would have to have a complete personality transplant it feels like. I would love to be able to believe all that he says but I’m pretty sure that is a piece of life I have lost forever

What you are feeling is completely normal. And honestly if your discovery is anywhere near your join date these are very very early times.

It takes years to heal both for the ws and for the bs. You are right to not feel he is solids right now. He isn’t. But if he does the work he can be.

What do you feel he has done towards that so far?

As for us it possible to get what you lost back? Maybe not.

However, what I believe can happen over a longer period of time you can create something new and different. Right now, it’s actually too soon to know or even think about that. First, your husband must really want to work on himself and then do that work. Then you can consider if you want to create that new thing with this person who has shown the growth you need to see.

I honestly can say nearly 6 years after my affair and about two years out from his subsequent affair) that our marriage is unrecognizable and it’s a good unrecognizable.

He needs a plan that goes beyond not cheating again.

If your BS told you that they would love you and work at the marriage but that they could never trust you again what would you do?

My BS never said that. For several weeks post-Dday there was quite a bit of conversation, angry and hurt from her end. But that all stopped when she demanded details (beyond the general ones) about the A, including sex questions. When I started to answer, she shut it all down. Did not want to hear it.

That was mm years ago and it has not come up again. You heard right, we are still together due to a consistent application of spackle and the rug sweep.

But I know she does not trust me and never will again. What do I do? I accept it.

Stillconfused2022 you have a pm.

[This message edited by WalkinOnEggshelz at 12:26 PM, Saturday, December 17th]

I have said this explicitly but I’m wondering how you’d feel if your BS said it to you.

I have a few different answers to this question.

Immediately after D-Day 1, I was not remorseful. I was sorry I hurt him, but I was a long way from understanding the depth of the pain and the impact of my betrayal. If he had said to me then, "I'll never believe you won't cheat again," I would have stuck it out for a few months, but then I would have probably left the relationship. I was arrogant and unwilling to do the work to rebuild, and I pushed my BS into rugsweeping.

If I knew what I know now, I guess it would depend on what "never trust" means. If it means "You've proven you're capable of doing this, so if you do anything suspicious, I'm always going to investigate," well, that's fair. We had an interaction like that 28 years after the A. I deleted WhatsApp off my phone, and my BH came to me all shaky because it looked suspicious. I only had WhatsApp because it was the preferred method of communication for an international school trip my daughter was on, and I deleted it after she got home. What I felt was surprise and compassion, because I hated the idea that he was still carrying that fear inside him. I wasn't angry or offended.

If "never trust" meant that my BS was living in a permanent state of hypervigilance years after the affair, making ongoing unfounded accusations, and nothing I said or did could convince them that I was being faithful, then I would conclude that this was never again going to be a healthy relationship for either one of us. However, there's absolutely no way to tell if that's how things will play out in the early stages. Some BS feel that way at first because they're traumatized, but then they can rebuild some level of trust as the WS proves they have reformed. Some BS will feel that way forever, even if the WS never cheats again, because the WS blindsided them too completely for the BS to be able to open themselves up to risk. And unfortunately, some BS should feel that way forever, because they're married to people who won't stop cheating. Good liars remain good liars. I've stopped lying, but I lived as a liar for most of my life, so I imagine the skill set is still there.