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General :
The Turing Test

Topic is Sleeping.
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WontBeFooledAgai ( member #72671) posted at 1:53 AM on Thursday, September 14th, 2023

But I certainly do have anger that I’m working to get out of the system as much as possible, I see it as a hinderance to what I want, a thriving love relationship with my wife.

That sounds too much to me like Rugsweeping though. You need to take all the time you need to work through the anger of your WW betraying you for 3 years, instead of working to get it out of your system. And just the same, your WW needs to do the work to make herself safe so she is even WORTHY of being your wife. Has ANY of those things happened yet?

My propensity to forgive (when the offender is penitent) is probably my most religion influenced trait in all this. I believe that I have been forgiven much and I do not want to face my maker after a life of not being generous in forgiveness.

Are you sure your WW is truly penitent and isn't just 'sorry' because she knows staying married to you is her best option? Forgiving does not mean giving the scorpion another ride on your back so she can sting you again you know.

posts: 863   ·   registered: Jan. 26th, 2020
id 8807720
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Stillconfused2022 ( member #82457) posted at 2:06 AM on Thursday, September 14th, 2023

ThisIsSoLonely: YES, completely agree. Times a billion. I think this viewpoint seems to sound bananas to most men…

This is the way the argument goes…

« So that hike you went on with her, you’re SUUUURE that it was just so you could feel her boobs. Yes, okay good, You’re sure right? You did NOT enjoy talking to her right? If you stuck your hand down her pants thats alright too. Just pleeeaaase don’t tell me you brushed a hair off her forehead, or held her hand climbing over a rock. Wait, what?!? You stared off into the sunset!!!!!!!! Why didn’t you just stay in the freaking parking lot and let her give you a blowjob. Jeez Louise!!! »

[This message edited by Stillconfused2022 at 2:07 AM, Thursday, September 14th]

posts: 363   ·   registered: Nov. 27th, 2022   ·   location: Northeast
id 8807721
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SacredSoul33 ( member #83038) posted at 3:25 AM on Thursday, September 14th, 2023

Wary of the generalizations, but I think BHs tend to be more traumatized by the sex and BWs tend to be much more bothered by the emotions. My H had two strictly PAs and then had an EA/PA. I found out about all of them on the same DDay, and was MUCH more bothered by the fact that he told me he was "in love" with someone else than that he had slept with other women. I barely even think about the first two APs. That could be partially because they were old news by the time I found out, but I could tolerate the sex mind movies with all of them much more easily than I could stand the thought of him holding hands with AP3 and getting all mushy and lovey-dovey with her.

As for "love" I have always held firm that the feelings during an A aren't love. I'm not religious, but 1 Corinthians 13 is my touchstone for what love really is: Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Affair tinglies are not love. They're the opposite of love. They're bullshit-fed mushrooms that only grow in the dark. Drag 'em out into the light and most will disintegrate.

Life is about fucking things up, and then unfucking the things you fucked up. That's what makes you less of a fuck-up. Not lying about it. ~ from Loudermilk S1:E1

posts: 1267   ·   registered: Mar. 10th, 2023
id 8807724
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 3:52 AM on Thursday, September 14th, 2023

Well, I must say, this story raises more questions than answers for me.

What if your AP had not thrown you under the bus? Would you still have gone back to your BH? If I were in his shoes I'd be wondering that every day of my life from here on out. I mean, 'my wife fell in love with another man who dumped her and that made her realize how great I am'....that is a story that I sure as hell would not want to be true for me!

Dude.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 1849   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8807728
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 4:02 AM on Thursday, September 14th, 2023

That sounds too much to me like Rugsweeping though.

You need to take all the time you need to work through the anger of your WW betraying you for 3 years, instead of working to get it out of your system.

And that is different from what I’m saying….how? I just don’t feel the need to nurse it.

And just the same, your WW needs to do the work to make herself safe so she is even WORTHY of being your wife. Has ANY of those things happened yet?

Yeah, really great news, I forgot to tell you, her "The Work" diploma came in the mail this week. So we’re good.

Forgiving does not mean giving the scorpion another ride on your back so she can sting you again you know.

No, but it does always involve risk. I can’t know her inner heart and mind. To forgive and R, risk is necessary. I’m taking that risk.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 1849   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8807729
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 4:04 AM on Thursday, September 14th, 2023

« So that hike you went on with her, you’re SUUUURE that it was just so you could feel her boobs. Yes, okay good, You’re sure right? You did NOT enjoy talking to her right? If you stuck your hand down her pants thats alright too. Just pleeeaaase don’t tell me you brushed a hair off her forehead, or held her hand climbing over a rock. Wait, what?!? You stared off into the sunset!!!!!!!! Why didn’t you just stay in the freaking parking lot and let her give you a blowjob. Jeez Louise!!! »

Confirmed that that sounds bonkers to this man. But thank you for expressing your point of view eloquently.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 1849   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8807730
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 4:05 AM on Thursday, September 14th, 2023

As for "love" I have always held firm that the feelings during an A aren't love. I'm not religious, but 1 Corinthians 13 is my touchstone for what love really is: Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Affair tinglies are not love. They're the opposite of love. They're bullshit-fed mushrooms that only grow in the dark. Drag 'em out into the light and most will disintegrate.

Well said.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 1849   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8807731
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WhatsRight ( member #35417) posted at 5:10 AM on Thursday, September 14th, 2023

The biggest betrayal is the first step. When they first consider someone else over their spouse and don't nope the hell out.

YES YES YES

"Noone can make you feel inferior without your concent." Eleanor Roosevelt

I will not be vanquished. Rose Kennedy

posts: 8201   ·   registered: Apr. 23rd, 2012   ·   location: Southeast USA
id 8807739
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WontBeFooledAgai ( member #72671) posted at 1:41 PM on Thursday, September 14th, 2023

Yeah, really great news, I forgot to tell you, her "The Work" diploma came in the mail this week. So we’re good.

Make sure it's not from The University Of Rugschaweeping tho. smile

posts: 863   ·   registered: Jan. 26th, 2020
id 8807762
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WontBeFooledAgai ( member #72671) posted at 1:47 PM on Thursday, September 14th, 2023

InkHulk:

And that is different from what I’m saying….how? I just don’t feel the need to nurse it.

I will answer this seriously. Your wording: "I see my anger as a hinderance..." just really made me furrow my brow. Friend, your anger is not a hinderance to ANYTHING. It is a natural healthy response to the betrayal that was put upon you, an emotion that is to PROTECT AND SERVE you. It also gives a good trial-by-wire for your WW. Is she strong enough to stand in there in the fire with you?

posts: 863   ·   registered: Jan. 26th, 2020
id 8807764
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WontBeFooledAgai ( member #72671) posted at 1:57 PM on Thursday, September 14th, 2023

And Friend...your WW has NOT done the work yet. Two months of good behaviour (maybe) after such a poor effort for a year, after a 3-year affair....the two months of good behahvior is but a START.

posts: 863   ·   registered: Jan. 26th, 2020
id 8807766
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hikingout ( member #59504) posted at 2:24 PM on Thursday, September 14th, 2023

What if your AP had not thrown you under the bus? Would you still have gone back to your BH? If I were in his shoes I'd be wondering that every day of my life from here on out. I mean, 'my wife fell in love with another man who dumped her and that made her realize how great I am'....that is a story that I sure as hell would not want to be true for me!

I am not her but I would like to take a crack at this for me.

First of all statistically women are at a much greater odds to be having an exit affair. I believe mine was, I was subconsciously trying to blow up my marriage and get out.

But it goes back to what I was saying about thoughts and emotions being fallible/changeable and what the true problem is being reliable no matter how you feel.

I blamed my husband for a lot that was really due to me failing in my responsibilities to myself. I didn’t speak up and things swelled until they seemed to big for me to effect change.

In my case the AP didn’t blow me up but he ended it when he was caught. I can honestly say I probably would have continued the affair indefinitely, my addiction to the chaos and dopamine combined with my unwillingness to become self aware would have taken everything down in its wake.

But, if that had happened I would have been the sorriest person moving forward. Because deep down my bond to my husband never left, I was only pushing it down in favor of trying to fill myself up with the wrong things. It would have been the greatest catastrophe of my like and would have ruined far more years than it has.

The problem with what you are saying is it says the bs was lacking something. Not good enough for the ws. Second best. That’s not at all how I see it. I see it as I was the one who lacked, and he lived the punishment for it. He isn’t second best, he is the one who deserved so much more than me.

Thank GOD it ended and the AP went away. He was a no different than a gambling or shopping addiction addiction that was going to take down everything I cherished in my life. He wasn’t ever first best. I was just too sick to acknowledge it when deep down I could see it all along. Very hard to describe. He was an audience for me to pretend to be someone I imagined to be happy and vibrant and sexy. In reality, I was none of those things, I was broken, desperate, and disgusting.

Regardless of getting it all wrong, My H’s value never changed, he just had a wife who couldn’t appreciate it. It was never about him at all, or the AP.

7 years of hard work - WS and BS - Reconciled

posts: 7074   ·   registered: Jul. 5th, 2017   ·   location: Arizona
id 8807770
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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 3:37 PM on Thursday, September 14th, 2023

I’ve said before that the sex was way more impactful to me than the I love you’s, and that is true. But I’m asking myself now if that is still true now that the shock has worn down.

Until I started to consider myself 'healed', at 3.5-4 years out, I went back and forth on whether the sex or the lying was worse.

At this point, there's no question in my mind - the lying was worse. Worse still, per my thinking a this moment, was that my W could not communicate her angst and use me to help her through it.

*****

Love is when you’re riding in the car with your Spouse or SO and look over at them and think to yourself how glad you are they are in your life.

I'd add 'warts and all', to make it explicit, but even without that phrase, I really like that image. 'Warts and all 'pretty much goes without saying for most people. The Corinthians passage seems very useful, too.

*****

I was taught that ANGER is always a signal to oneself that something in one's life is not the way one wants it to be.

There are 2 sub-types. One is anger at something one can change. When that's the case, it's up to the angry person to decide how to handle the anger - and doing nothing can be a healthy choice.

The 2nd sub-type of anger is due to things that can't be changed. No BS can change the fact that we have been betrayed. One can leave one's betrayer, but we have still been betrayed.

That's the source of a lot of BSes' anger, and the quicker one gives up that anger, the better for the BS.

To do otherwise is to recycle the anger again and again and continue to beat oneself up about it. Sometimes D is the way to honor that anger and to put it aside. Sometimes, D isn't enough to assuage that anger.

IH, Your W cheated. It looks like you're at least in the process of giving up that anger about things that can't be changed. You're benefitting from that.

But your W is doing things that anger you still. The more you ask her to change, the better off you'll be, as long as you know she has to make her own choices, and as long as you know you can pull the plug on your M at any time, for any reason.

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex ap
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
You don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 29891   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
id 8807783
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WalkinOnEggshelz ( Administrator #29447) posted at 4:11 PM on Thursday, September 14th, 2023

WBFA:

What if your AP had not thrown you under the bus? Would you still have gone back to your BH? If I were in his shoes I'd be wondering that every day of my life from here on out. I mean, 'my wife fell in love with another man who dumped her and that made her realize how great I am'....that is a story that I sure as hell would not want to be true for me!

First of all, I have to say that the process of a true reconciliation is long, deep, and arduous. One of the promises we made to each other was that we would leave no stone unturned. We, together processed each aspect of my affair from every angle possible. We knew going in that there was a possibility that the answers would leave us in a place where we could no longer continue together but it was necessary as we were both unwilling to go back to the status quo. For those of us that have experienced the emotional roller coaster that is reconciliation, what you have asked demonstrates an ignorance to the process. Like infidelity itself, we think we know what we would do "if it were us" but sometimes the reality is actually quite different.

Hikingout did a great job summarizing it but I will also give you a glimpse of my personal experience.

I had every plan to leave with the OM as my A was also an exit affair. I know I would not have been happy with him long term. His affair with me was not his first. I would have fallen into the same insecurities I had in my own M. So the cycle would begin. I never would have been able to work on my own issues and tackled those demons. I would have, most likely, ended up by myself.

In our work, however, my husband has never been my second choice. In my case, I was trying to escape him hurting me (or so I thought). I felt he had settled for me and would leave the moment he found someone better. I was going to beat him to the punch. If only I had the ability to be vulnerable and share with him my insecurities we would never be here.

My affair was never about my husband being less then. My affair was about my own messed up thinking.

It’s funny. He knows he is a catch. He knows he is a better man than OM will ever be. In our journey though, we also recognize how messy life is and how easy it is to let our more unhealthy feelings drive the bus. Today we are a team and we check each other. He is my best friend and definitely knows my darker side now. He knows my Achilles Heel and I know his.

I think only people that have been through this and come out the other side can fully understand it. Otherwise it’s like telling someone "I know how you feel" when you have never experienced what that person is going through. You can imagine how it feels but not know.

If you keep asking people to give you the benefit of the doubt, they will eventually start to doubt your benefit.

posts: 16658   ·   registered: Aug. 27th, 2010   ·   location: Anywhere and everywhere
id 8807789
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 7:47 PM on Thursday, September 14th, 2023

The 2nd sub-type of anger is due to things that can't be changed. No BS can change the fact that we have been betrayed. One can leave one's betrayer, but we have still been betrayed.

That's the source of a lot of BSes' anger, and the quicker one gives up that anger, the better for the BS.

To do otherwise is to recycle the anger again and again and continue to beat oneself up about it.

This model seems eminently useful.

I’m sure as hell not happy when I’m angry. That seems almost stupidly obvious to write down. But if I choose to cling to and nurture and even grow my anger for what has happened in the past, how am I ever going to get over this shit? The affair was devastating. I could have the demeanor of Mr Rogers for every day forward and the amount of anger and despair she has seen in me has driven that point home to her. I believe the anger has that function, to communicate the depth of the wrong, hence the huge problem with stuffing and resentments, the depth of the offense is never conveyed. At this point, that anger is not doing anything constructive and it makes me miserable. I do agree that anger for continued actions is valid, but even then it’s too much, it’s trauma amplified. I believe an anger appropriate to the offense is useful for communication and resolution. I don’t want anything beyond that.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 1849   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8807812
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 7:53 PM on Thursday, September 14th, 2023

I’d like to give a special thanks to hikingout, WOES, and MiGander. Your insights are invaluable and I’d be beyond grateful if you’d continue to help me thru this journey.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 1849   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8807813
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WontBeFooledAgai ( member #72671) posted at 10:04 PM on Thursday, September 14th, 2023

Alright, WOES. Thank you for answering my questions.

posts: 863   ·   registered: Jan. 26th, 2020
id 8807833
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WontBeFooledAgai ( member #72671) posted at 11:11 PM on Thursday, September 14th, 2023

With that said, I do NOT think that deciding to NOT R is a sign of weakness. I was cheated on, exit affair, and when I found out what was happening all this time I was gaslit, I was angry but I was GLAD she was out of my life.

I think in fact all these long-winded posts by the fWW in many instances OBFUSCATES a lot. In fact, these long-winded explanations just make my head hurt and so on some level I'll just never accept them as reality.

Look Bro, your WW probably aint the post-A WOES or HikingOut. There are also A LOT of better women out there who just won't cheat and who won't throw around the FOO stuff at you. Don't keep yourself chained down!

posts: 863   ·   registered: Jan. 26th, 2020
id 8807850
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WontBeFooledAgai ( member #72671) posted at 11:12 PM on Thursday, September 14th, 2023

And by Bro I mean any betrayed man on here, not necessarily @InkHulk. I've proselytized to him enough already laugh

posts: 863   ·   registered: Jan. 26th, 2020
id 8807852
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AintDatSpecial ( member #83560) posted at 12:37 AM on Friday, September 15th, 2023

As someone whose WS did not have sex or love the AP, I can tell you it’s still the absolute worst pain of my life. The fact that the person I loved and trusted the most in this world could betray me, lie to me, and kiss another woman is still traumatizing.

Me- BW/ Him- WH, both early 40s/ D-day June 2023/ working on healing me

posts: 55   ·   registered: Jul. 6th, 2023   ·   location: United States
id 8807863
Topic is Sleeping.
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