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The Turing Test

Topic is Sleeping.
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hikingout ( member #59504) posted at 3:08 AM on Saturday, September 16th, 2023

Hi WiseOld, I hope you do not tune this out.

I am sorry if what I said was triggering to you or you felt I was arguing with you. I answered what you said from my own perspective and commented that your position was valid. I also said you are right not all ws change. From my perspective it wasn’t me versus you. You took the time to respond to my comments and I took time to address yours. Having many perspectives is what makes this forum great.

I truly apologize if during the course of that caused you distress or if you felt I was dismissive of your viewpoint. That was never my intention.

We are simply an anonymous forum, and we do tend to all come here projecting some portion of our situation on others. That was more or less my point, rather than really picking any bone wit you, of which I have none.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:17 AM, Saturday, September 16th]

7 years of hard work - WS and BS - Reconciled

posts: 7125   ·   registered: Jul. 5th, 2017   ·   location: Arizona
id 8808154
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OnTheOtherSideOfHell ( member #82983) posted at 5:35 AM on Saturday, September 16th, 2023

I don’t think it’s helpful for ANY of us, either wayward or betrayed to decide who is a "better" vs bad person. While infidelity is crazy wrong and devastating, typically it’s not the entire picture of a cheater. I know my husband was a lot more than his inexcusable cheating. And, I loved so much about the rest of the man he was. That made R worth a shot and so far so good!👍 I found the post suggesting IH could find a women way better than his wife strange. None of us know his wife. We know details of a horrible thing she did, but I suspect given IH’s love for her, she has a lot more to offer than what we know.

posts: 192   ·   registered: Feb. 28th, 2023   ·   location: SW USA
id 8808164
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WontBeFooledAgai ( member #72671) posted at 2:50 PM on Saturday, September 16th, 2023

Hi HikingOut, thank you. Definitely no need to say sorry to me (I presume you were talking to me, I am WBFA not WiseOld but it sounds like you were mentioning my post) but I do appreciate the kindness and consideration on your part.

I do indeed feel a strong anger and passion for the BHs here--or for anyone who is wronged, even though how I was betrayed was not NEARLY as bad as that many other people, such as the OP himself, have suffered. I am not positive precisely where it comes from.

But this is about our friend InkHulk. I thought about this some more, and these are my specific concerns.

1. InkHulk, your posts do sound an awful lot as they did this past spring--you defending your WW's efforts even though (from reading your other posts) your WW's efforts at the time were FAR from sufficient. What has changed this time. The successful Rs it was the WW who took the lead in taking accountability. Even if the WWs start off foggy, they at least take in the input they get from here on SI. Is your WW getting guidance from a source that will hold her accountable? It has been over a year since D-Day. (It is a reason why I am skeptical of how much WOES and HikingOut's take applies to IH's WW too. The levels of initiative seem completely different.

2. In fact, didn't your WW very recently bring up FOO issues for her affair? Uh oh....

3. I am truly concerned for InkHulk ending up in a situation with his WW that..to put it mildly, does not serve him. I don't know what the stats are for the percentage of BHs and WWs who R with each other vs D. But I imagine the odds for R are slim. Even the marriages that don't end, how happy are most of the BHs who stayed. From most of the "drive-by"s on here it appears to be quite slim.

My take for now. Of course you don't owe anyone an answer about these concerns but perhaps some things to think about. If R is truly what you want then I wish you a very strong R!

posts: 869   ·   registered: Jan. 26th, 2020
id 8808174
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WontBeFooledAgai ( member #72671) posted at 2:59 PM on Saturday, September 16th, 2023

InkHulk, your posts do sound an awful lot as they did this past spring-

**I should walk back a bit from "an awful lot" it may have been a rhetorical flourish, but I still do think there is a significant similarity....

posts: 869   ·   registered: Jan. 26th, 2020
id 8808175
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Stillconfused2022 ( member #82457) posted at 4:46 PM on Saturday, September 16th, 2023

WBFA:

Want to answer a bit your questions in MY case , not to thread jack, but to try to understand for all of us to get input - and think its particularly relevant to InkHulks circumstances. And because I think IH meant this one thread to be a little more open discussion than his particular path only (though interwoven with his particular path) but more interactive too. But i could be wrong so if this constitutes thread Jack please tell me because I have never have been on a forum before and truly the nuances of how to be mutually respectful to everyone escape me a little in an online forum.

I worry that IH’s wife may be foggy and hurt him too and wouldn’t want that for him, he seems so great and I can completely understand wanting to protect him, though of course he is a big boy.

The reason i see parallels - or maybe not - with my husband, and I wish there were some input, is what do you do when someone is really no longer foggy, but is inherently maybe a little selfish. I wont bore you to tears with why my husband isn’t foggy, but he has gotten this woman fired twice, he has undergone 8 years of emotional colonoscopy with fairly good humor and grace, came clean with everything a year ago, has spent all 8 years in total transparency, no slip ups ever of over friendliness with any female, has entered IC, is in MC, writing timeline, working on defensiveness (still imperfection here) and generally become a much better person. See, its boring, and there is more, but you’ll just have to trust me for purposes of this discussion.

BUT, his nature is a tiny little autism spectrumy, and he is obsessed with his work. He said once that he worries himself if he could be covert nariccist a little cuz he’s always trying to do everything for others, and it can be a bit for external validation. People stop me in the street to tell me how amazing a doc he is, and he would routinely do home visits for patients, and truly tries to help people. But, that made for poor boundaries and he doesn’t do that anymore.

The point is the selfishness, if you wanna call it that, means he is ALWAYS going to fail the test on question #1 about « taking the lead in taking accountability ». So I am wondering if that makes a WS not a safe partner. How is a BS supposed to figure out if they are « doing the work » if they are never going to get there on certain pieces that everyone seems to agree are important to recovery and healing. His responses to me being triggered are wooden and sound unempathic, but it completely doesn’t come naturally to him. An example would be an inability to offer enough support during a flashback because he is thinking about scheduling our daughter’s flight back to college and he is stressed about it. Just a task oriented person who has trouble with touchy freely stuff.

I went back and reread IH’s posts, which I had read along the way but just wanted to be sure I followed it. And it was really awful what was happening in the beginning, but how do you know when the WS is on the right path when they start to better but they just aren’t good at certain things.

I genuinely appreciate the hard stance folks like WBFA and Hellfire have taken because when I have been to accepting of my spouse’s bullshit things have gone worse. And when I have been tougher, partially based on the input of these folks, it has resulted in positive change. And I know my tendency is to be too « understanding ». But, it becomes very confusing when its been 8 years and the WS has made a real effort and you don’t want them to walk in lifetime purgatory. I see that personality trait that IH demonstrates of offering a genuinely forgiving attitude as such a positive, but a risky positive at the same.

So I also want to just thank everyone, the WSes that have offered their genuine stories of their process, the tough eggs like WBFA and Hellfire and others, and the people like IH that have been open to the discussion with great humor thrown. Anyway genuinely thank you. And always any input is very helpful.

[This message edited by Stillconfused2022 at 10:34 PM, Sunday, October 1st]

posts: 374   ·   registered: Nov. 27th, 2022   ·   location: Northeast
id 8808178
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ThisIsSoLonely ( Guide #64418) posted at 4:57 PM on Saturday, September 16th, 2023

The point is the selfishness, if you wanna call it that, means he is ALWAYS going to fail the test on question #1 about « taking the lead in taking accountability ». So I am wondering if that makes a WS not a safe partner. How is a BS supposed to figure out if they are « doing the work » if they are never going to get there on certain pieces that everyone seems to agree are important to recovery and healing. His responses to me being triggered are wooden and sound unempathic, but it completely doesn’t come naturally to him. An example would be an inability to offer enough support during a flashback because he is thinking about scheduling our daughter’s flight back to college and he is stressed about it. Just a task oriented person who has trouble with touchy freely stuff.

This is a GREAT topic for another thread - as I think there is some desire to for the "reformed WS" to be the perfect "unicorn WS" - there is a checklist for R that we talk about on here and honestly, I think it gets glossed over quite a bit as to what constitutes "enough" for R to be a "success" in SI terms.

You are the only person you are guaranteed to spend the rest of your life with. Act accordingly.

Constantly editing posts: usually due to sticky keys on my laptop or additional thoughts

posts: 2325   ·   registered: Jul. 11th, 2018
id 8808179
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Wiseoldfool ( member #78413) posted at 7:12 PM on Saturday, September 16th, 2023

Hikingout:

I, too, assume you were replying above to WontBeFooledAgain rather than me. In the years I’ve been here, you’ve never said anything to me that offended or upset me. Quite the opposite, almost everything you post has proved to be helpful for me.

Every secret you keep with your affair partner sustains the affair. Every lie you tell, every misunderstanding you permit, every deflection you pose, every omission you allow sustains the affair.

posts: 337   ·   registered: Mar. 1st, 2021
id 8808192
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 7:33 PM on Saturday, September 16th, 2023

**I should walk back a bit from "an awful lot" it may have been a rhetorical flourish, but I still do think there is a significant similarity....

I’ve got you running scared with that "emotional manipulation" rebuke, don’t I? wink laugh tongue

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 1891   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8808197
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 7:56 PM on Saturday, September 16th, 2023

Damn guys, I take a day off and you write a short novel of gems.

I want to start with MiGander: First, it sounds like your situation at home is actively super fucking hard and I hope things improve for both you and your husband.

You responded to the rejection part of what I said is key to triggering the betrayal anguish. (4th wall break: if anything I say next is offensive or triggering to you in any way, I pre-emptively ask for your forgiveness). You described some things with your husband that I can understand why they would feel highly rejecting to you. But I also suspect that you would agree that what you describe does not rise up to the level of a D-Day. (Pause to check for agreement).

So you have the rejection element, but that in itself isn’t enough to trigger the betrayal anguish. So what does it take?

From what I’m reading here, I think the necessary elements are

1) rejection - a rival that engenders attraction that draws our love away from us

2) intention - our love has it in their heart and mind to pursue the rival

3) deception - our love had kept this rejection and intention hidden from us and possibly even actively lied to us to keep it from the light.

If this model is useful, it would explain why SC and ADS experience the anguish without the elements that so many of us fixate in, namely feelings and sex.

Edit to add: re-reading also shows me that Grubs had this pretty much from the first page. Sorry, I’m a slow learner sometimes.

When they first consider someone else over their spouse and don't nope the hell out.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 9:14 PM, Saturday, September 16th]

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 1891   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8808201
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 8:07 PM on Saturday, September 16th, 2023

I genuinely appreciate the hard stance folks like WBFA and Hellfire have taken

I truly appreciate this. I've been considering leaving lately. It's nice to know my posts are appreciated.

I will be everywhere you look,but nowhere to be found. And that will be my revenge.

posts: 6680   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8808202
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 8:13 PM on Saturday, September 16th, 2023

None of us know his wife. We know details of a horrible thing she did, but I suspect given IH’s love for her, she has a lot more to offer than what we know.

Fuck yes, she does. Fuck yes. In many ways, I wish I was more like her.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 1891   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8808204
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 8:31 PM on Saturday, September 16th, 2023

1. InkHulk, your posts do sound an awful lot as they did this past spring--you defending your WW's efforts even though (from reading your other posts) your WW's efforts at the time were FAR from sufficient. What has changed this time. The successful Rs it was the WW who took the lead in taking accountability. Even if the WWs start off foggy, they at least take in the input they get from here on SI. Is your WW getting guidance from a source that will hold her accountable? It has been over a year since D-Day. (It is a reason why I am skeptical of how much WOES and HikingOut's take applies to IH's WW too. The levels of initiative seem completely different.

I deeply appreciate that you (and many others) have this long history and are able to make a statement like this. I think it’s valid. I think HikingOut’s statement that the first year is a shit show is comforting to me. So, last spring; my wife was in fact making progress. She just was also still lying to me. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. And so it is not alarming to me to hear that there are similarities in that message. We were rolling the stone up the hill then, it rolled back to the bottom, and now we are back to pushing.
Your point of initiative is also worth thinking about. I like Emergent’s comment that former waywards are not a monolithic group. Sisoon says his wife seemed to reform from D-moment on. HikingOut says she was a basket case for a year. Emergent’s husband has been honest but not as immensely self aware as WOES and is probably still growing now (fair to say, Emergent?). So I’m just not alarmed by her behavior. I know she was buried in shame and avoidant tendancies, she was never going to be Sisoon’s wife. But just with the data in front of me I know the spread of the possibilities spans years for former Waywards to reform to a point that this forum would honor. I see growth in her. A lot of it, honestly. That is what I need to see.

2. In fact, didn't your WW very recently bring up FOO issues for her affair? Uh oh....

Yes. But see above….

3. I am truly concerned for InkHulk ending up in a situation with his WW that..to put it mildly, does not serve him. I don't know what the stats are for the percentage of BHs and WWs who R with each other vs D. But I imagine the odds for R are slim. Even the marriages that don't end, how happy are most of the BHs who stayed. From most of the "drive-by"s on here it appears to be quite slim.

Trying to use our own personal experiences, including this forum, will never yield reliable statistics to help with this question. I

My take for now. Of course you don't owe anyone an answer about these concerns but perhaps some things to think about. If R is truly what you want then I wish you a very strong R!

My deep thanks.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 1891   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8808209
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 8:45 PM on Saturday, September 16th, 2023

And because I think IH meant this one thread to be a little more open discussion than his particular path only (though interwoven with his particular path) but more interactive too. But i could be wrong so if this constitutes thread Jack please tell me because I have never have been on a forum before and truly the nuances of how to be mutually respectful to everyone escape me a little in an online forum.

You are doing great. I love it when this whole group shares, I get so much out of it. And you are a hell of a writer. I hope to hear a lot more from you. But first you must explain this phrase

emotional colonoscopy

I fully relate to your question of "what is enough" from our formerly wayward partners as we pursue R. I agree that you should start a thread on it and I’d love to learn what comes of it. I’ve alluded to my bare minimum is "growth". But is that enough? How long should I expect to see measurable growth? What is an adequate end state for her to grow into? It sounds like this has been discussed before and I’d love to see the checklist alluded to. So new thread?

[This message edited by InkHulk at 8:59 PM, Saturday, September 16th]

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 1891   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8808210
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 8:47 PM on Saturday, September 16th, 2023

I truly appreciate this. I've been considering leaving lately. It's nice to know my posts are appreciated.

If you have any doubts, please know you’ve impacted me deeply. Do what is best for you, but I’d miss you greatly.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 1891   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8808211
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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 9:16 PM on Saturday, September 16th, 2023

The successful Rs it was the WW who took the lead in taking accountability.

I think that's a misunderstanding. R requires BOTH partners to take full responsibility for themselves. It takes both partners to do the work of R. Both partners need to drive R. Both partners take the lead at different times.

After deciding to R, ALL WSes fuck up. ALL BSes fuck up. Even Rs that go as smoothly as R can go don't go smoothly.

A WS can't R with a BS who won't take responsibility for themself, no matter how much the WS takes responsibility for themself. A WS committed to honesty can't R with a BS who won't be honest with both themself and others.

Sure, a BS can agree, explicitly or implicitly, to work on the M initially as if they're a committed partner, but that just means giving and getting as if the M is solid.

During that period the BS has to evaluate their own feelings with total honestly. Are they willing to give what an H or W should give (and I mean 'give' - with no expectation of receiving something in return)? Are they getting what they want (with no sense that they need to give back)? Do they want to commit to their partner for the rest of their lives? Are they ready to (re)create a good M?

If the answers are 'yes', then R begins - with an assumption that all issues will be resolved.

The main difference between 'working on the M' and R is this: In WotM, the 1st question for any dissatisfaction is, 'Is this the deal breaker? Do I D over this?' After committing to R, the 1st question is something like, 'How do I raise this issue?' The unsatisfied partner simply assumes the issue will be resolved, while knowing that D is always available if the issue turns out to be unsolvable.

But make no mistake: R takes the full commitment of all partners. A BS who is passive in R can't R.

2. In fact, didn't your WW very recently bring up FOO issues for her affair? Uh oh....

My point - and I think emergent8 agrees - is that FOO issues become motivators for, in essence, all of our behavior, because early influences have the longest time to gain power, and our earliest influences come from FOO.

There's no question in my mind that my FOO issues played a big part in my choosing to be faithful, even though I really like women and sex, and sex is a really good way to show liking for another person, at least IMO.

Mentioning FOO issues may be an excuse. OTOH, it may be a step on the way to insight and change.

I don't know what the stats are for the percentage of BHs and WWs who R with each other vs D. But I imagine the odds for R are slim. Even the marriages that don't end, how happy are most of the BHs who stayed. From most of the "drive-by"s on here it appears to be quite slim.

A lot of writing on this is available on the 'net, of which a lot crap - some of the 'statistics' are essentially made up to sell BS to BSes. Some is based on misreading a study - it's amazing how much traction adheres to a 2014 study of several hundred couples of whom 19 - nineteen! - were impacted by infidelity. Nineteen simply is not a big enough population to support generalizations on infidelity.

It's pretty clear, however, that most couples stay together after infidelity, especially if a large number of As are never revealed - some studies show a majority of WSes never confess and are never found out. Also, there's no real data on 'no D' vs 'R'. I think we'd all agree that staying together is probably like rugsweeping, whereas R addresses dysfunctions in the partners.

'No real data' means it's a logical error to think one has any statistical knowledge about the phenomenon. OTOH, since it appears that a majority of unfaithful Ms stay together, the probability of R may very well be a good deal better than 'slim'.

'No real data' on staying vs R means I haven't found anything reliable.

I don't cite studies that show most couples don't D because I do not have the time or energy to sift through all the crap. If someone comes up with refuting evidence, please lay it out in a way that a reader can find it. It's probably linked to the 2014 study with a relevant population of 19. smile

[This message edited by SI Staff at 9:38 PM, Saturday, September 16th]

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex ap
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
You don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 29933   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
id 8808213
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JasonCh ( member #80102) posted at 9:52 PM on Saturday, September 16th, 2023

sisoon -- you have brought up this (or something along these lines) several times;

It's pretty clear, however, that most couples stay together after infidelity, especially if a large number of As are never revealed - some studies show a majority of WSes never confess and are never found out. Also, there's no real data on 'no D' vs 'R'. I think we'd all agree that staying together is probably like rugsweeping, whereas R addresses dysfunctions in the partners.

Where does this position come from? Since half of all marriages end in divorce are you saying that the half of marriages that do make it are more than likely impacted by an affair (unrevealed or rugswept)?

posts: 461   ·   registered: Mar. 18th, 2022
id 8808218
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Lurkingsoul12 ( member #82382) posted at 10:11 PM on Saturday, September 16th, 2023

So, Ink, what 'work' are you doing as a BS to make this R work??

posts: 457   ·   registered: Nov. 12th, 2022
id 8808221
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 InkHulk (original poster member #80400) posted at 10:46 PM on Saturday, September 16th, 2023

So, Ink, what 'work' are you doing as a BS to make this R work??

Before I answer this, I want to confirm you are really asking and this isn’t sarcasm.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 1891   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
id 8808230
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SacredSoul33 ( member #83038) posted at 11:58 PM on Saturday, September 16th, 2023

I truly appreciate this. I've been considering leaving lately. It's nice to know my posts are appreciated.

HellFire, I know sometimes that I irritate the hell out of you and we don't always see eye to eye, but I think that your hard stance is often warranted. I don't know if you saw my response to you a few days ago, but you said something profound that's got my mind going and I greatly appreciate it. You're a very valuable SI OG. I hope you stick around.

Remove the "I want you to like me" sticker from your forehead and place it on the mirror, where it belongs. ~ Susan Jeffers

Your nervous system will always choose a familiar hell over an unfamiliar heaven.

posts: 1286   ·   registered: Mar. 10th, 2023
id 8808236
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WontBeFooledAgai ( member #72671) posted at 2:02 AM on Sunday, September 17th, 2023

For what it is worth, I hope you stick around too, @HellFire....

posts: 869   ·   registered: Jan. 26th, 2020
id 8808241
Topic is Sleeping.
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