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Before I answer this, I want to confirm you are really asking and this isn’t sarcasm.

No sarcasm. It's a real question.

English is not my first language. So, my sentences might have a tone that I did not intend to. So, please forgive me.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 7:10 AM, Sunday, September 17th]

So, Ink, what 'work' are you doing as a BS to make this R work??

No sarcasm. It's a real question.

English is not my first language. So, my sentences might have a tone that I did not intend to. So, please forgive me.

No forgiveness required, Lurking. Just between the quotation marks, the double question mark, and the general context of Sisoon’s comment being a little different than the typical SI line, I was just curious.

I’m also going to use this opportunity to answer FAWH’s question that he asked long ago, repeated below.

So how do you perceive yourself growing and developing as a person into the future?

So what do I see as my ‘work’ with respect to R?

1) I have stayed in the marriage in the face of intense pain and triggers caused by my marriage partner.

2) I have bent my heart and mind toward a forgiving disposition. I have chosen to not nurture anger. I’ve felt it as it has come honestly, but I haven’t clung to it.

3) I have offered her full transparency to my thoughts and emotions, even with the breakdown in trust.

4) I have invested significantly in healing from the betrayal trauma. I have gone to weekly IC for a year. I have done MC. I have read many books. And of course, I have spent a tremendous amount of time here, learning, processing, and growing.

5) I have laid down my hurt to allow her to express her hurts that she foolishly hid from me for years. I have apologized sincerely for my own transgressions not related to the A.

6) I have steadfastly insisted on a course that I believe gives us a shot at true R. No unmet needs bull shit has been allowed, as tempting as it is to make temporary peace. We will have the full surgery. Period.

7) I am looking into my own FOO. I have alcoholism littered across my family, including my father. I have deeply contentious divorce as I went thru high school. I’m trying to figure out myself, partly so that going forward I can be a better marriage partner that my wife can look forward to having. And of course for my own benefit as a person as well.

8) I’ve committed significant amounts of money toward therapy and intensives with R in mind.

9) I have tried to understand the marriage dynamics that devestated us for years. I’ve read Gottman and Attachment Theory, recognizing the horsemen and demon dance and all that jazz, with the goal of not just surviving this thing but truly thriving in the end.

10) I have read about her tendencies. I’ve read about complex PTSD at her request to understand her better. I’ve used Brené Brown’s work on shame to try to relate to her experience. And I’ve listened to her when she shared.

More directly to FAWH’s question: I want to be a man who knows his own past and demons well enough to live above them. I have allowed FOO issues to make me a much worse husband and father than I could have been. I want to be a father that my children bring their joys and sorrows to, both today and when they fly the nest. I want to be a husband that my wife feels baseline at peace with such that conflict and passion can appropriately manifest and resolve and continually feed the relationship. I want to be a man who knows what he wants in life and boldly pursues it, and that the joy of that pursuit would enrich the lives of those around me, and it would glorify God, who I attribute it to.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 11:03 AM, Sunday, September 17th]

Ink, I hope your wife reads your last post. I hope she realizes R is as difficult for you as it to her. You are fighting similar battles and demons with similar vulnerabilities as her. Also, it's not just her. Even you are battling your own FOO issues but with more integrity and strength of character. So, she can do that, too.

Anyway, I'm coming to sisoon's post. I agree with him. R is two persons job. BS does have some 'work' to do and responsibilities to take to make R work. But, this doesn't mean an affair happened or WS is still wayward because BS didn't take responsibility or address the issues of the marriage.

One common dynamic that I have seen in R attempts that are not going well and where WS is being remorseful is that WS there tend blame themselves for every hiccups they experience in their marriage i.e burden themselves with too much responsibilities even when it's not necessary and not their fault and BS tend to blame WS for every bad experience in their marriage i.e relinquishing their responsibilities. For example, there are many BS who refuse to seek external help like therapy, etc, because they feel "I didn't cheat. So why should I seek help. It's not my fault. " Their anger is understandable, but their reasoning is flawed. They are hurt and broken. Not their fault. But, they do have this personal responsibility to seek help to heal and also to escape infidelity. Without healing oneself, BS can't have successful R. So, yeah, R is two persons job. That is why I asked you that question about your 'work' as BS.

2) I have bent my heart and mind toward a forgiving disposition. I have chosen to not nurture anger. I’ve felt it as it has come honestly, but I haven’t clung to it.

Is she doing the same? Pouring her heart and bending her mind to come out of W nature. Has she chosen not to nurture her shame?

3) I have offered her full transparency to my thoughts and emotions, even with the breakdown in trust.

Has she done the same? Having the intent to be transparent and to actually be transparent are two different things. So, has she 'been' transparent in her thoughts, emotions, and actions all the time or at least when it's needed.

4) I have invested significantly in healing from the betrayal trauma. I have gone to weekly IC for a year. I have done MC. I have read many books. And of course, I have spent a tremendous amount of time here, learning, processing, and growing.

I hope she spends a tremendous amount of her time in learning, processing, and growing.

5) I have laid down my hurt to allow her to express her hurts that she foolishly hid from me for years. I have apologized sincerely for my own transgressions not related to the A.

Does she ever prioritize your hurt over hers? Your pain over her shame?? In early months she clearly didn't. One example is her choice to 'talk about affair' only during MC sessions in a controlled environment was an indication of her priority.

7) I am looking into my own FOO.

I hope she is doing the same with the sincere commitment to change.

9) I have tried to understand the marriage dynamics that devestated us for years.

This!! We can clearly see your efforts in this. Is she also putting similar effort into understanding things that are necessary for her to successfully address her issues, for successful R and marriage?

10) I have read about her tendencies. I’ve read about complex PTSD at her request to understand her better.

I hope she is also reading books and whatnot to better understand you and your pain. I also hope she is not just reading but also using that knowledge to help you heal and to make this R work.

My questions are not rhetorical or sarcastic in nature.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 1:54 PM, Sunday, September 17th]

I was going to ask you what work she is doing to R, and what work she is doing to become a safe person(imo,these are 2 different things), a few days ago. But that wasn't what this thread is about.

However, since you have listed your work, I will ask..what work is she doing,specifically, to reconcile..and what work is she doing to become a safe person?

I think any work she has done,has been overshadowed by her actions since dday..and her actions during the affair have made it difficult to see what she's doing today. It might be helpful if you highlight that work.

Since half of all marriages end in divorce are you saying that the half of marriages that do make it are more than likely impacted by an affair (unrevealed or rugswept)?

tldr - From SI's POV statistics and probability are meaningless. Each of us has to deal with our own sitches, and probabilities don't govern individual cases.

Even if X% of As result in Ds, no single person is X% D'ed and Y% not-D'ed for long. One is either 0% or 100% D'ed. Each of us has to move ourselves from M or in a committed relationship on d-day to D or R or just staying out of inertia, fear, principle, etc.

The 'General Social Survey' in the US asks question about infidelity. The various iterations show infidelity for men to be in the low-high 20% depending on the year of the survey and high teens for women.

You can't simply add the numbers because some Ms are between madhatters. IIRC - I never studied probabilitiy and statistics - is that some 40+% of Ms are impacted by infidelity. Some number of them D, some stay together, some do the work to R, but we don't have numbers on how many do which.

Peggy Vaughan did a lot of non-random surveys and published her data in Help for Therapists (and their Clients); you can find free copies on the 'net. Most of her subjects stayed together. There was a recent article someplace - NY Times? - about a peer-reviewed study that came a lot closer tha Peggy Vaughan to being a random sample of people impacted by infidelity that came up with the same conclusion - but I let it pass, because I stopped monitoring statistics years ago. Naturally, I couldn't find it yesterday when I looked.

No one studies the statistical aspects of the connection between infidelity and D. For example, my xdil cheated, and son and xdil D'ed, but not because of her cheating. Xdil's cheating was a result of her dysfunctions, and her dysfunctions led to D, and they probably would have even without her cheating. Bur some people would disagree with my son and say the D was related to cheating anyway. What's the truth? I believe my son, but I also believe we often have hidden motivations, so I can't rule out the idea that he D'ed because of her A.

Actually, xdil filed in response to my son's notifying obs. Did notifying obs cause the D? If it did, that makes infidelity more of a potential cause for the D. I don't have an answer to the question of how to determine if infidelity is a significant cause of D in all the post-A Ds.

*****

I think we all know instinctively that statistics don't drive individual cases. My reason? I looked far and wide and long for statistics about outcomes of infidelity. When push came to shove, however, I always thought that even if 90% of Ms ended in D after infidelity, I wanted R, and I thought I might be in that 10%. I also knew that even if 90% of Ms R'ed, those who wanted D would D.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 6:30 PM, Sunday, September 17th]

However, since you have listed your work, I will ask..what work is she doing,specifically, to reconcile..and what work is she doing to become a safe person?

I’m just going to assume there is no sarcasm included here My response may be a bit delayed, but I want to acknowledge the question and say I will answer it.

I think any work she has done,has been overshadowed by her actions since dday..

She has done some really shitty things since D-Day, I fully acknowledge that. But she is also doing a lot of "the work". Both seem to be true.

and her actions during the affair have made it difficult to see what she's doing today.

I don’t understand this statement. Can you please clarify?

Every now-and-then Sisoon and I don’t agree…

From SI's POV statistics and probability are meaningless. Each of us has to deal with our own sitches, and probabilities don't govern individual cases.

I think in many ways SI is all about stats and probabilities…
We tend to offer a semi-standardized response to posters fresh from d-day where we advocate things like the affair is not due to what the BS did or does, expose the affair, refuse to participate in infidelity and so on. We do this not because of some scientific biologically measurable and repeatable research that can prove that the affair is not the fault of the betrayed spouse, but because our repeated experience confirms that it isn’t. Our statistics…
Our experience also strongly indicates that if you let the OP spouse know the affair is more likely to die, that by exposing to stakeholders you create social pressure for the affair to die, that if you stand relatively firm on your requirements to reconcile you are more likely to succeed…

By refusing stats and probabilities we create the situation where we might have a poster whose spouse has an affair and the betrayed poster believes its all his fault… after all… stats and probabilities don’t apply.

The key though is that stats and probabilities are only that – stats and probabilities.
I always put on the seat-belt when I sit in my car. Not because stats and probabilities have predetermined that I will be in a crash, or that stats have determined that even if I crash I won’t be hurt. I do it because IF anything happens the probability of minimizing my damage improves. I would be a fool to not use the seat-belt, but a bigger fool (pun intended) to think the seat-belt would guarantee my health and safety in a crash.

It’s the same with the infidelity advice offered: By following it you increase your probability – your chances – of making it through this in the best / least damaging way possible.

Like… If you discover your wife is having an affair and remain quiet about it… chances are the affair will carry on. But… it might end. Eventually.
If you don’t let the OM partner know our statistical experience would strongly suggest that the affair might temporarily stop once you confront your wife, but probably restart within a couple of months. But… it MIGHT be over.
If you don’t let stakeholders (friends, family…) know then the ease of restarting the affair and the odds increase. BUT… it MIGHT be over.

Each step – each action – has statistically been strongly linked with certain reactions. As with stats the chances of success – or failure – can be dependent on other factors. To refer back to traffic safety: the seat-belt improves my safety, as does also driving carefully, as does staying within the speed limit.
Letting the WS know you know, letting the OPS know, sharing with stakeholders… each step increases the probability of the affair being over. But none guarantee it…

So…
Yes – follow the advice because your situation isn’t that special.
No – your situation IS unique and maybe the advice wont help YOUR situation. Only be totally aware that you are then the exception rather than the rule, and chances are you aren’t THAT special that too many exceptions really apply.

I’m just going to assume there is no sarcasm included here

Absolutely not being sarcastic.

Can you please clarify?

My questions were to give you the opportunity to basically give us an update as to what exactly she is doing NOW to become a safe partner. Many are focused on her actions during the affair, and her fumbles since dday. I was hoping if you give a detailed update,Many of those comments will end.

No malice intended. I believe she is trying. I've said that before. I think she can be her own worst enemy. I think she self sabatoges. I don't think she is purposely trying to hurt you at all. Anymore. My questions were to..Hopefully..help everyone to move past the "what she did," and move on to "what she's doing."

Thanks, Bigger. You made me realize I was looking at the use of probabilities in only one of the myriad ways we try to use them.

When I was new, I searched the world wide web very much wanting to find statistics that would tell me whether to D or R. In a quest like that, it's really important to know in one's that statistics don't apply to individual cases. The fact was that I had to make my own decision based on what I perceived. The statistics were irrelevant even if they had been available.

I agree that a lot of what we learn is learned by experiencing that some actions work best/worst in the preponderance of cases that we know. (Boy, I hope that sentence is clear.)

InkHulk:

I deeply appreciate that you (and many others) have this long history and are able to make a statement like this. I think it’s valid. I think HikingOut’s statement that the first year is a shit show is comforting to me. So, last spring; my wife was in fact making progress. She just was also still lying to me. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. And so it is not alarming to me to hear that there are similarities in that message. We were rolling the stone up the hill then, it rolled back to the bottom, and now we are back to pushing.

Your point of initiative is also worth thinking about. I like Emergent’s comment that former waywards are not a monolithic group. Sisoon says his wife seemed to reform from D-moment on. HikingOut says she was a basket case for a year. Emergent’s husband has been honest but not as immensely self aware as WOES and is probably still growing now (fair to say, Emergent?). So I’m just not alarmed by her behavior. I know she was buried in shame and avoidant tendancies, she was never going to be Sisoon’s wife. But just with the data in front of me I know the spread of the possibilities spans years for former Waywards to reform to a point that this forum would honor. I see growth in her. A lot of it, honestly. That is what I need to see.

I don't know Friend, I am not positive that this will satisfy the anti-Rugsweeping Police! I agree with HellFire's most recent post. I mean, you don't owe us details in your update or anything, but I do still find myself thinking that we seen this movie before already.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:50 PM, Monday, September 18th]

Wise old fool & Wont be fooled- sorry for the mix up- we had a big thing happening in our family this week and I got on kind of to distract myself a bit but my brain wasn’t working right!

My comment apologizing to won’t be fooled again were really because of the whole deleted response thing. Didn’t know what happened, don’t need to know. But I am aware that when posting as a ws sometimes what I say can be triggering and I am just sensitive to that. I understand your position and it has its place just like everyone else’s. But I want to make it clear that I don’t minimize what happened, and I understand that hindsight is different than mindset at the time, I think that’s what makes your head hurt. It did come across as dismissive as if some of us posted hogwash, but that doesn’t bother me either.

End t/j

I also think Hellfires question is a good one. I think grace has its place just don’t give it before it’s earned. I do believe the first year is a shit show as you noted, but because of that I always think of it as a recovery year rather than a reconciliation period. Once the lightbulb goes off with her on one thing, the others will come. But don’t put too much stock in any direction yet. Focus on you and what you need. It’s a little too early for her to have herself decided, and until she does you can’t. I hope that makes sense. I do believe redemption is possible, and I am hopeful she is working towards that. I think the answer to hellfires question can be telling. But I also understand it opens you up to more scrutiny in a thread that was more philosophical rather than directly asking for support on your own situation. It arrows the focus rather than a collaborative discussion which I think is what you are seeking in this specific thread. Just some thoughts.

I am sorry @hikingout and @WOES, I was wrong in implying that what you wrote was hogwash or nonsense or whatever. But yeah, the way I see it, her feelings for OM were just as real as whatever her feelings for me were at the time, and I still strongly believe that this is true for any WS when it comes to OM and BH. I also believe that many WS reconcile with their BS because BS is a safe choice of sorts. I will not be convinced otherwise of this.

It is your right to hold that belief. No worries on my end.

I don’t disagree there are lots of feelings in an affair, either. It’s their premise that has no merit. I understand that may or may not make a difference when choosing to reconcile. The behaviors were all there. I did the things. So I don’t disagree with what you are saying, nor do I have any real investment in changing your mind. My responses to you or others in these cases is really just to post a counterbalance for the OP to consider. I think that’s the great thing about this space, lots of perspectives and we have all painfully earned them. So in the future please never see me as trying to convince you. I have no need to convince anyone. I am
simply doing the same thing as you comparing and contrasting experiences.

I think in some cases divorce is definitely the only answer. I also think reconciliation is a valid path if both people want it. I don’t think any ws converts overnight, it’s a long process in which we have to be dedicated to putting a mirror up.

Some ws are a river that flow and change. Some are a pond. Anyone married to someone like that must proceed with caution. I have worn the bs shoes, and I get it takes a while to know what you are working with. And some bs after infidelity no longer wish to keep working and that is definitely warranted.

It’s been a busy week, not a lot of time to post, or generally think about A topics at all mercifully. I will say that the working out of the topics in this thread, my Exoneration, if you will, do seem to have lifted something in me. So just more and more thanks to you all in helping to shape my healing journey. It’s working.

Regarding statistics: stats are funny things. There are lies, damned lies, and statistics. Then add pre-existing belief and Bayesian and your head starts exploding. But in as simple terms as I can make them: for me, if I had a credible source that told me that 95% of marriages that experience infidelity end in divorce within 5 years (so a Gottman like prediction backed by evidence) that would weigh heavy on me and highly influence my decision. I’m sure I’d have all these same feelings and hopes that I am special, like a cancer patient met with a fatal prognosis. But the cancer patient really only has that option, the alternatives are despair and death. My alternate to bravely fighting on against the odds would be divorce and a likely good new life, so it’s just not the same. But the thing is, I don’t believe the underlying baserate of infidelity causing divorce, or a miserable zombie marriage, are that 95%. In fact, I have no idea what it is, or what factors would be key in making a prediction like that (the equivalent to the four horsemen for infidelity). If I did know, if I believed anyone knew, I’d use that info in my journey. But I’ve seen nothing worth staking my life’s greatest decisions on.

Also, regarding the question of listing my wife’s work toward R and becoming a safer person. I’ve thought about this, and I’m open to discussing, but it seems to me like there is a huge risk of me listing off a bunch of things and getting nothing more than a chorus of "not enough!" So in anticipation of that problem, I’m going to turn the question back to you all first. What is the work that you might expect from my wife at this stage in the game?

The first three years of my Reconciliation process were filled with ups and downs. Three long hard years.

Here’s what I saw:

My H cut all contact w/ the OW. The day she emailed him asking for a conversation he immediately came to me and showed me the email. He was upset thinking I would blame him for it.

He became accountable for his time and location (on his own).

He willingly went to therapy.

He answered questions even if I asked them a hundred times. He didn’t get mad or angry. He had patience with me.

He acknowledged what he did and took full responsibility for his actions.

He stopped blaming everyone else for his unhappiness.

Did he make mistakes? Absolutely. But when I pointed things out he didn’t fight or argue with me. He listened. He acknowledged. He understood.

Also, regarding the question of listing my wife’s work toward R and becoming a safer person. I’ve thought about this, and I’m open to discussing, but it seems to me like there is a huge risk of me listing off a bunch of things and getting nothing more than a chorus of "not enough!" So in anticipation of that problem, I’m going to turn the question back to you all first. What is the work that you might expect from my wife at this stage in the game?

I agree with what you are saying we all do have a tendency to get a little judge and jury in these things. In reality, without knowing the nuances of her baseline we have no basis to analyze improvements.

The 1st wife’s list is good. Another thing I would add is I was able to articulate some of the underlying hows and whys of the affair, and actively worked on changing those things.

I often think the root cause is unhappiness, but we have to take responsibility for that ourselves. No one can make us happy. Being in a good relationship can add to it, enhance it.

So for me, by the end of year one I could articulate my how’s and whys. I didn’t have them all fixed, by I was striving daily to discover myself. What makes me happy, what I need more of, being able to know those things made me have to practice communication too.

I had to also find the toxic ways of thinking that caused some of my behaviors. I catastrophized a lot, felt rejected easily, chaos was my baseline and if things were too neat or easy I was extremely uncomfortable, I was a perfectionist and a people pleaser (the hardest two for me to get over but so important to get to the vulnerability needed to have an emotionally fulfilling relationship)

Notice these are all specific to me, not our relationship. As I changed those things our relationship changed in an organic way. Yes, I still did the things needed for him to heal- telling the truth, responding to questions, bringing up the affair myself instead of waiting for him to do it (which by the time he did bring it up he was overwhelmed), but those things aren’t enough on their own.

And just like 1st wife mentioned, I failed a good amount. But I just didn’t give up. I hope that helps.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:25 PM, Tuesday, September 19th]

There's also the risk,if you answer the question, that it will cause your wife to get upset by our responses..so you're turning the question around to us. It's a classic,to answer a question with a question.

My guess is..she's not doing enough. But you're on the upswing of the roller-coaster, and you don't want to upset her.

My question was to shine a POSITIVE light on your wife. It was to stop,or at least,minimize, the negativity towards your wife.

Thankfully, you have heard from Hiking, and she's laid out what work she should be doing. Maybe that will help your wife in her efforts.

[This message edited by HellFire at 3:39 PM, Tuesday, September 19th]

Also, on top of what was already added, a sense that you WW wants YOU and not just the social and financial perks of getting to stay married to you. Specific to your case is that you are a high earner whose salary can provide an easy lifestyle to your family.

Your WW is now WORKING. This is not only to contribute to the household but also should reduce her alimony should you and she D.

Your WW is no longer complaining about the chores on her plate.

You mentioned before that your WW's so-called "conflict-avoidance" required YOU to always cave to avoid the conflict. Your WW doesn't need to behave like a whipped dog but this type of selfishness on the part of your WW has to be OVER.

Meanwhile, is someone holding your WW accountable? I do get the sense that your WW's IC may have gotten her degree from The University Of Rugschaweeping. It's a very bad school!

1stWife, would you be willing to give a bit more context? I know that your story involves more than one affair and certainly not a linear progression from D-day 1 on. When did you see what you describe? Thank you for your input.