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These two statements contradict each other, yet strangely if she were to allow herself to become vulnerable, she could also learn to let go of the toxic shame.

They are certainly in tension. My wife craves intimacy and runs from it. Her message is a statement of what I know she wants, and my despairing message comes from a long observed state. I need it to change. There is progress, I still fear stagnancy or regression.

Brene Brown has stated that the most vulnerable people tend to be the happiest.

I can easily believe that and I’m quite sure my wife would to.

yes, she shuts down all manner of uncomfortable conversations and has for our entire marriage. And this affair HAS to be the end of that

Her "shame" has been an effective tool in shutting down uncomfortable conversations your entire marriage.

She gets upset,and the conversation ends.

Conversations about the affair,feelings,etc, happen only in MC,and on a once a week walk. (Except if you trigger)

On those walks, her "shame" rears it's head, and the conversation ends.

She's using a tactic that has worked your entire marriage.

Maybe it's not shame. Maybe it's manipulation.

Someone asked if she was confusing "shame" with remorse. You said quite possibly. Maybe you are viewing her "shame" as remorse as well.

^^^^ Yep

Anyone got any encouraging words for this sorry group of BS’s with spouses drowning in shame? Any success stories of overcoming it? What has worked, what hasn’t?

IH, I think this is an indicator of one of the more problematic aspects of reconciliation.

I could be wrong, but this feels like you are refusing to let go of the wheel.

I understand why you may be doing so, but this becomes an exercise in futily as you draw a line, she crosses it, you rationalize her crossing by citing things like her past, trauma, or shame, and then you ask for suggestions on how she could overcome such problems. I understand that is a bit of an oversimplification, but the pattern exists nonetheless.

In other words, it looks (not that it is, but it LOOKS) like you would rationalize reconciliation no matter what would happen. That may be cynical, but is it far from the mark?

I would say that only you know the answer to that question, but I'm not so sure that you do.

I hope it works the way you hope it works, despite my cynical or pessimistic view.

And I just got a text from my wife saying

"Vulnerability and honesty will be two of the pillars we rebuild our marriage on".

So that happened.

When her actions match her words, many here will celebrate with you.

Maybe it's not shame. Maybe it's manipulation.

Yeah, maybe. I just don’t think so. I don’t mind the possibility being mentioned now and again, or every post for WBFA. But I honestly, genuinely don’t think so.

IH, I think this is an indicator of one of the more problematic aspects of reconciliation.

I could be wrong, but this feels like you are refusing to let go of the wheel.

I don’t think it’s that simple. This question wasn’t intended in the spirit of "how do I fix her" but more like "hey, who has survived this and lived to tell, and what kept your head above water in the process"? I much more align with Sisoon’s model of R takes two fully committed people, so suggestions of sit back and watch mountains move aren’t gonna win the day.

In other words, it looks (not that it is, but it LOOKS) like you would rationalize reconciliation no matter what would happen. That may be cynical, but is it far from the mark?

I’ve learned from my time here that it does not take a perfect former wayward to R, but a good enough one, and before you ask, I can only say that I’ll know it when I see it. Maybe better said, I’ll know it when I feel it. I have been really interested in MintChocChip’s story as she has burst on the scene. Seems it took her about three years to settle inside herself that it was time to go. If you were blessed with immediate moral clarity to leave, I’m happy for you. I continue to see growth, and she is not actively pushing my lines right now.

I would say that only you know the answer to that question, but I'm not so sure that you do.

Honestly, I feel I’ve covered this topic ad naeseum. I’ve "divorced" a parent. I’m not going to divorce my wife just to prove to the internet I’m tough enough.

I hope it works the way you hope it works, despite my cynical or pessimistic view.

I appreciate that. And you never responded to my question about Gary Larson.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 9:05 PM, Tuesday, September 26th]

When her actions match her words, many here will celebrate with you.

I’ve detailed many of her actions that have. So let’s all of us poor bastards who have shared the misery of infidelity do ourselves a favor and celebrate the small stuff. God knows we could use the lift. I’m having some Irish whiskey with my wife tonight. Maybe take a drink and know that how far I’ve come here is worth celebrating, regardless of what happens from here on out. For me, and for all of us.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 8:49 PM, Tuesday, September 26th]

And you never responded to my question about Gary Larson.

I thought I had. My apologies.

You are correct. Growing up, the various books (The Far Side, Bride of the Far Side, etc.) were my absolute favorites...clever, twisted, and much closer to fact than fiction.

As for the question you feel you have answered repeatedly: I am not a "divorce no matter what" poster, despite my pessimistic view of your WW. You are right that you owe noone answers.

What should give you a small modicum of pause, however, is how many different posters are asking similar questions of you. For the most part, it isn't from a place of desiring your WW to be punished, rather it is from a place of concern for your current path, combined with watching you find and struggle with real boundaries and consequences.

Savor the whiskey, sir. As someone who had to quit drinking several years ago, I quite miss my previous drink of choice.

You are correct. Growing up, the various books (The Far Side, Bride of the Far Side, etc.) were my absolute favorites...clever, twisted, and much closer to fact than fiction.

Huge fan myself. Far Side and Calvin and Hobbes made the comic page a daily must.

What should give you a small modicum of pause, however, is how many different posters are asking similar questions of you. For the most part, it isn't from a place of desiring your WW to be punished, rather it is from a place of concern for your current path, combined with watching you find and struggle with real boundaries and consequences.

I hear nothing from you but good intentions. You’ve read the thread and probably previous ones, you can see there are all kinds of advice and perspectives here. I think I’m ok today. There are things she could say or do that would change everything in a moment, but she hasn’t said or done those things. Yet. Maybe she never will. Like the boats in the Dark Knight (I do love me a good Batman reference).

Savor the whiskey, sir. As someone who had to quit drinking several years ago, I quite miss my previous drink of choice.

Cheers.

I love me a good bourbon. Drinking to your healing and happiness, InkHulk. Cheers!

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 11:18 PM, Tuesday, September 26th]

I thought of you this evening IH. I was catching up with my closest friend - who's husband is not only having an affair, but he's openly doing it while he still lives with her. I think to deliberately hurt her.

Anyway, she has an avoidant attachment style in the truest, starkest sense. She is kind and empathetic and funny and loyal but on her deepest level she relies on no one. I think to be honest, this is why her husband had an affair. I think he felt like she didn't "need" him in the way he needed to be needed (I think he is anxious style) The M with them was amazing for a long time, but it always felt to me like he was feeling like he wasn't getting enough. She was loyal, loving, devoted, amazing Mother, thought the world of him and so on but he wanted to feel like she needed him and she just didn't.

So along comes this 20 years younger AP and gives him, I guess, the power and control and attention he felt entitled to. All pretty sad as I think he needed IC to fill his own cup rather than an A, but here we are. He intends to D my friend and have babies and joy with this new woman he's know for six weeks.

Anyway, my friend is obviously upset. But she's not traumatised. She's kind of calm about it. It hasn't shaken her foundations, because as much as she loved her husband, she isn't bonded to him as someone with healthy attachment would be. HE is not her sense of safety in the world in the same way my husband is.

It was just interesting to observe that today, how powerful these attachment programs are in us - as you mention your W craving and fearing intimacy simultaneously (so much like my WH). My friend, as it happens was more or less left to live alone aged 9. Alcoholic single mother who literally just left her alone. If she cut herself, she did first aid. If she needed dinner, she cooked it alone and ate alone. She described to me sitting in the dark all night (before cellphones) because the electric had been cut.

That is what forms how we attach. It's so powerful.

Just thought I’d give a quick update: had a deep talk with my wife this morning. It was as meaningful as I could hope. She described what the A evolved into in worse terms than I have, truly ugly. She actively resisted getting drawn into a shame storm and stayed present and soft. She is really thinking about the horror of it but also respecting the fact that I am the victim of it.
I was able to be gentle and hear what she had to say with grace. We’ve also had a really good week of connection, she’s been open and vulnerable in things that she previously would have kept hidden. Some really good moments. Just wanted to share.

Happy for you Ink.

I am also happy to hear that. Within the whole shit show those little bursts of time are what provides the inspiration of who the ws wants to be and aloes the couple to begin reimagining their new relationship. Once we reached this point, we started having a date night once a month and a weekend getaway once a quarter. Not everyone has that luxury with kids and such, but having alone time, and time for just fun and being ourselves helped so much. The affair defines so much of the day to day it’s great to get those opportunities to see glimpses of the light returning too. It’s part of the evolution, and I hope you see more of it moving forward.

I am happy to hear that you WW is (finally!) getting a clue and helping you in your healing, @InkHulk. And that you are happy with your path!

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 3:29 AM, Tuesday, October 10th]

Recently had a procedure regarding the medical issue I referenced a while back, the one that is associated with her hooking up with AP during the A. She took off work to take me there, was kind and comforting. I was emotional driving there, both for the undesirable procedure and the association with the A. She listened well and comforted me. She has been beautiful in helping me in follow up care. There have been some tough moments still, but we are getting thru them and making progress.

At the recommendation of WOES, I got the book Healing the Shame that Binds, just started reading it recently. I got it primarily with her in mind, and it is highly applicable to her. But with my own broken alcoholic home background, I’m finding a lot there for myself as well. Between that and Brené Brown, I think there is much fertile ground for self discovery and growth for both of us in the framework of shame. Thanks for that one, WOES.