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I also could tell that I was answering questions differently than I would have pre-A that would have tilted me more into the anxious bucket, but you know, can you blame me?

No! I had done these tests a long way before the A because I knew WS had avoidant attachment and it was already causing us issues. I was a secure as it gets, and now my attachment system is definitely haywire!

I understand our attachment system is cleared from birth (ever watch the still face experiment on YouTube? Fascinating), but we can "earn" our attachment style from relationships. So it's also fluid.

Yeah, it’s awful. We came damn close to ending it months ago when she succumbed to a shame cycle during a round of questions. I had done everything right, been calm and collected, and she did not tolerate it and started acting like the victim.

I had this by the bucket load. Result: I stopped being calm. I started raging. Ultimately I left, because I simply couldn't deal with anymore of him playing the victim.

For what it's worth, I know my WS inside out as I'm sure you know yours. He doesn't really think he's the victim. He thinks he's the irredeemable villain, and that's where this behaviour comes from. It's the deep shame of being unable to withstand criticism.

He said to me last week: "the worst trauma I feel is knowing I hurt the person I love like this and have to see their pain. I hurt too, I am sad, but I have the added bonus of knowing it's all my fault". I think that is the shame thing tied up in a knot.

She is getting better, but this is the worst part of being in a relationship with her, even pre D-Day. She just can’t accept responsibility for things she’s done, even trivial things, it gets deflected back to me.

For whatever reason, she's developed this as a defence mechanism because she can't withstand criticism. Even justified criticism over a small thing.

I remember the week my WSs A started and I'm going to share it with you as with three years of hindsight it is now an open book into Wayward thinking and how the reaction to criticism can play out internally.

We were long distance at the time of the A. He was dismissive avoidant. I was secure. So long distance was tough, because his love language was often about being there / physical affection and quality time. He wasn't big on introspection and I was definitely finding it hard being separated.

I remember before he went away feeling like his attachment issues were holding us back from 100% connection. Because I was secure, I could see this incredibly clearly and felt no anxiety around it. I just wanted him to resolve it, so I recall when he left, giving him a book to take with him on attachment and asking him to read it.

He didn't read it :(

He'd only ever been with anxious people before me, so despite being your average "good guy", pretty much every relationship had been toxic and miserable because he was very avoidant and he'd pair up with very anxious people who were almost desperate for him. They would tighten the leash, he would back away, and the toxic push / pull dance would continue.

The relationship with me was completely different. If he pulled away, honestly I was fine. Just waited for him to return. I let him. I didn't play the pursuit dance with him, and so this really beautiful relationship grew where we just respected each other as we were.

So anyway, I recall pretty well the minute we were discussing the long distance thing, and it didn't appeal to me in any way but I felt like the situation was either asking him to sacrifice important things or us working out a way to be apart for a short period until work /family situation allowed that to change. So I agreed to it, and I remember so clearly him being incredibly happy. He'd never been with a woman who allowed him freedom before.

And he used it to cheat :(

I have the messages still from the days when it first happened and we were talking about it, and it was a combination of things going on for him. We had had a fight around 4 weeks earlier because there was a family Zoom call and he "forgot" about it. I was really hurt, embarrassed, as all my siblings were there with their spouses and mine "forgot". So I didn't talk to him for a couple of weeks aside from - well - anger and criticism.

At around the same time, he was being criticised at work. Some guy in the office had really slammed him publicly. Humiliated him even and he was absolutely swimming in shame. He couldn't get admiration from me because I was mad at him, and lo and behold there is this coworker with a crush on him who's doing anything but criticising him.

So his messages to me around that time read "I was alone and lonely and feeling bad and criticised. You were angry at me and she was kind and nice to me and didn't ask anything of me. I figured you weren't a safe bet because you were rejecting me, and I didn't want her but she was comforting"

And that's basically it. No wild lust. No infatuation. No great thrills. Just really someone almost pathologically allergic to being criticised and looking for the antidote. Which of course backfired.

So I get it is hard for your WW to change this - it's an ingrained problem that like you said was probably there long before the A ever happened, and removing self defence mechanisms is hard.

She is who she is, no point in raging against that. She is seeing it and acknowledging it for the first time now. If the A and the work of R is what it takes for her to pursue healing, then so be it.

I think this is a really wonderful way to look at it.

I think she could be an absolutely spectacular partner without all that baggage. And I love her, warts and all

Yep, I feel this way too and completely get it.

It sounds to me like it's generally moving forward. Not everyone gets the perfect wayward who somehow changes overnight into that spectacular partner with all the empathy and strength they lacked during the A.

It's always useful to remember that people who find things hard are still making an effort because they love you. Even if the effort isn't textbook perfect, I am guessing she probably finds some of this really tough.

For what it's worth, I know my WS inside out as I'm sure you know yours. He doesn't really think he's the victim. He thinks he's the irredeemable villain, and that's where this behaviour comes from. It's the deep shame of being unable to withstand criticism.

I believe this, though it’s hard to see some days. I believe her starting to embrace being a self respecting person is the best antidote to this. If she can do that, we both win. And it’s possible she might overcorrect for a time, definitely been hints of her being bad selfish when I want her to be good selfish. But that is a subtly that I can give her time to resolve if R is progressing acceptably.

For whatever reason, she's developed this as a defence mechanism because she can't withstand criticism. Even justified criticism over a small thing.

A common theme in the book of Proverbs is that it is foolish to reject correction. I’ve always loved that book and it has always bothered me that she was so at odds with this key point. But she does not accept criticism with any grace. It’s like a punch in the gut for her, even small things. I know I won’t be able to go back to how it was pre-A, so this is something she is going to have to make progress on.

Amen. We can never go back.

Grace is my favourite word :)

You are really leaning into this place, MCC, giving me a run for my money on over-posting

Well, I just had almost three years of rug sweeping, so I guess hadn't allowed myself to really delve into any of this fully and it's really cathartic to actually do that.

I am not saying I didn't cry and get angry, I did. Once every six weeks when I'd just bubble over. But we really just stopped talking about it because it would cause such bad flooding for him and gained nothing for me.

So I ended up just not bothering.

I moved 200 miles to a house on my own - knowing literally nobody - population of town 400. And am working from home. I think I am probably going to go through the intense recovery period I probably needed a loooooooong time ago.

I literally spent about 10 days reading on here and connecting with all the buried things and that's made me feel actually a lot better.

And of course, since leaving - WS has suddenly found the impetus to start doing the work (shocker) so he's been able to have long overdue conversations with me and I guess as I am physically gone he can deal with his own damn shame!

Well, I just had almost three years of rug sweeping, so I guess hadn't allowed myself to really delve into any of this fully and it's really cathartic to actually do that.

Definitely get that. I have NEEDED to process this. My wife couldn’t meet me for that, therapy was way too infrequent, friends couldn’t absorb that much toxicity. I was fortunate enough to know about SI before D-Day and was posting from the beginning. That 1000 posts in a year is not an accident

I literally spent about 10 days reading on here and connecting with all the buried things and that's made me feel actually a lot better.

That’s a hell of a bender. I don’t think I’ve had quite that, but I’ve gone pretty deep.

And of course, since leaving - WS has suddenly found the impetus to start doing the work (shocker) so he's been able to have long overdue conversations with me and I guess as I am physically gone he can deal with his own damn shame!

I don’t think I’ve picked up yet, when did you seperate?

Grace is my favourite word :)

If you don’t know it already, you should check out the U2 song by that name on the album All That You Can’t Leave Behind. It’s gorgeous.

I totally agree that a trigger is a trigger. It’s like an emotional episode of diarrhea, there is no putting it off even if you want to.

Congratulations InkHulk this quote lives forever in the SI Quote Thread in Fun & Games.

Congratulations InkHulk this quote lives forever in the SI Quote Thread in Fun & Games.

YAYYYY! I’ve been silently hoping for that honor to come some day

Separated for about a month IH :)

I will Google that song!

IH said this « She just can’t accept responsibility for things she’s done, even trivial things, it gets deflected back to me.« 

And MCC said this « For whatever reason, she's developed this as a defence mechanism because she can't withstand criticism. Even justified criticism over a small thing.« 

And I have been saying the same thing about my WS both before the cheating and much more so after.

Last week I complimented my husband by saying that I thought it was really nice how he handed me my phone to entertain myself while he drove back to get my wallet. He had already said he was going to use the car ride to call back a patient so he already had a built in excuse to take the phone with him but just really wanted me to have the phone so he gave it to me. And yes I did use that time to survey the phone.

He took my compliment as an insult. He was really offended that I thought it was a difficult thing to give up his phone. Even the MC was baffled. She was like « so you took that statement from StillConfused as an insult? »

….but he did. Everything is an insult. If I gently say I want something done differently he will describe the interaction as me having screamed at him whatever was said. He isn’t saying this to gain an advantage in an argument — he truly experiences a gently voiced complaint as someone horrifically screaming at him aggressively. It is like a true delusional state he goes into when criticized.

So my fear is that what we are all describing are narcissistic traits. And we all know narcissistic traits are not very amenable to therapy.

If someone’s spouse showed these traits in therapy I would be silently wanting to tell them to run for the hills. So should we run for the hills? Is it possible that we would actually be much much happier if we were to release ourselves from these relationships? Are we just stuck in some trauma bond and don’t have enough distance from the situation to realize we should get out? Or are they actually pretty good and reasonable partners who just became « NPDish » in the context of being called out for cheating. Is that just such a shame accelerant that we are seeing the worst version of themselves and if we get past cheating recovery they will go back to being reasonably good partners. I am very torn on this and it makes me doubt myself and my choices.

[This message edited by Stillconfused2022 at 10:39 PM, Sunday, October 1st]

It stands to reason that if you don't like criticism, you DO like praise / attention / flattery. So this might link into why cheaters so often like the ego kibbles if the affair and struggle with the accountability of R. I think if you are a relatively emotionally secure person you see it differently.

Meaning: you know criticism after you have done something bad is part of living with integrity, so you can take it on the chin in return for feeling you have integrity. I think you have to have self respect and self love to be able to do that. It's not about the other person, but about feeling proud of who YOU are - and therefore remorse if you have done something wrong is a key part of that.

I watch a lot of WS's who are doing really well with all this stuff, and I can see that "owning it" and taking it on the chin is really part of them learning to be someone they respect themselves and feel proud of, which is self love.

As IH has said, healthy people also generally don't need praise / attention or flattery from insignificant people. I guess it's a value thing. Praise from someone you respect and love is inherently valuable. Praise from someone you don't feel either of those things for, and who is probably blowing smoke up your butt is NOT valuable.

So my fear is that what we are all describing are narcissistic traits. And we all know narcissism is essentially not amenable to therapy. Best case scenario these kinds of things take decades of therapy to improve upon. Or maybe our WSes are very close to NPD in general which is a very scary thought.

People can have narcissistic traits and not be narcissistic. People can say something abusive and not be an abuser. I think real NPD is pretty blatant (I have a family member with it) and you can't really miss it :D

My WS is not narcissistic. He has Asperger's syndrome (which can sometime mimic elements of NPD) and he has some maladaptive elements to himself, and that can be childlike - a kind of toddler style emotional immaturity which can manifest in ugly things like entitlement, selfishness, defensiveness and also, I guess, behaviors that are occasionally abusive - like gaslighting.

He is also the kindest, most caring, most humble and loving guy in the world. He has flaws, but he can be completely selfless and no matter how bad he feels he will drop anything and everything to help me with anything 24 / 7. So he's not a narcissist, of that I am sure - but I am betting a lot of cheaters are :)

He took my compliment as an insult. He was really offended that I thought it was a difficult thing to give up his phone. Even the MC was baffled. She was like « so you took that statement from StillConfused as an insult? »

….but he did. Everything is an insult. If I gently say I want something done differently he will describe the interaction as me having screamed at him whatever was said. He isn’t saying this to gain an advantage in an argument — he truly experiences a gently voiced complaint as someone horrifically screaming at him aggressively. It is like a true delusional state he goes into when criticized.

Oh man, it’s like you have a camera in my life. My wife is ultra-sensitive to any emotion in communication. Anger, excitement, joy, it doesn’t matter: if my tone changes from baseline she interprets it as a threat. One time she did it in front of my sister (they are close friends) and my sister was like, "nope, that was totally normal whatever it was because I didn’t notice anything". I was categorizing expenses one time for budgeting and asked her in a perfectly calm and flat tone where I should put one purchase of hers and she accused me of criticizing her for not having done it already (she is deathly afraid of being considered "irresponsible", easy to see FOO issue). I fucking hate this part. Where does this shit come from?

So my fear is that what we are all describing are narcissistic traits. And we all know narcissism is essentially not amenable to therapy. Best case scenario these kinds of things take decades of therapy to improve upon. Or maybe our WSes are very close to NPD in general which is a very scary thought.

It is a scary thought. And I’ll say that my wife’s paternal grandmother must be a full blooded narcissist, she is the most self absorbed human being I have ever encountered. Is that hereditary?

People can have narcissistic traits and not be narcissistic. People can say something abusive and not be an abuser. I think real NPD is pretty blatant (I have a family member with it) and you can't really miss it :D

My WS is not narcissistic. He has Asperger's syndrome (which can sometime mimic elements of NPD) and he has some maladaptive elements to himself, and that can be childlike - a kind of toddler style emotional immaturity which can manifest in ugly things like entitlement, selfishness, defensiveness and also, I guess, behaviors that are occasionally abusive - like gaslighting.

He is also the kindest, most caring, most humble and loving guy in the world. He has flaws, but he can be completely selfless and no matter how bad he feels he will drop anything and everything to help me with anything 24 / 7. So he's not a narcissist, of that I am sure - but I am betting a lot of cheaters are :)

The way I perceive my wife is that these awful coping mechanisms, like criticism sensitivity and shame storms, they cover over and obscure the beautiful soul that is my wife. I’m sure many will think I’m delusional and drinking Kool-aid, toking hopium and "when someone shows you who they are you should believe them" (yet somehow we only apply that to the worst thing they ever do in their life). I hold to this hope.

The way I perceive my wife is that these awful coping mechanisms, like criticism sensitivity and shame storms, they cover over and obscure the beautiful soul that is my wife.

That's how I feel about my WS too

I’m sure many will think I’m delusional and drinking Kool-aid, toking hopium and "when someone shows you who they are you should believe them" (yet somehow we only apply that to the worst thing they ever do in their life). I hold to this hope.

I think you should trust yourself. You know your wife better that people here do.

It sounds to me like you're hopeful, not delusional. Faith in people we really love is a good thing.

It sounds like you're prepared to leave if she can't become safe to you.

I was too.

It sounds to me like you're hopeful, not delusional. Faith in people we really love is a good thing.

I agree.

It sounds like you're prepared to leave if she can't become safe to you.

I think I’d doubt this statement myself if not for my experience with my father. It’s going to take a lot to force my hand, but unfortunately she’s already done about 90% of it. A clear statement of refusing my requirements for R will lead to D. Much more nuanced will be her giving lip service. That could torture me for years. I know I don’t have to tell you.

I was too.

Sorry it came to that. Well done on the show of courage.

MCC said:

It stands to reason that if you don't like criticism, you DO like praise / attention / flattery. So this might link into why cheaters so often like the ego kibbles if the affair and struggle with the accountability of R. I think if you are a relatively emotionally secure person you see it differently.

Meaning: you know criticism after you have done something bad is part of living with integrity, so you can take it on the chin in return for feeling you have integrity. I think you have to have self respect and self love to be able to do that. It's not about the other person, but about feeling proud of who YOU are - and therefore remorse if you have done something wrong is a key part of that.

I watch a lot of WS's who are doing really well with all this stuff, and I can see that "owning it" and taking it on the chin is really part of them learning to be someone they respect themselves and feel proud of, which is self love.

This pretty much sums up in a nutshell my WW and the struggles we have with recovery. Any and all discussions around her affairs end up in a blubbering well of shame. I have been really looking for her to "own her shit" but you can’t "own" something you can’t even rationally discuss, can you?

I have also noticed how intrinsic this is to my wife’s day to day action as well. Any discussion we have that paints her in a negative light (real or perceived) results in a predictable pattern of "denial, blame shifting/minimization and then shutting down". This came up twice this past week around "normal conversations". One was about her reluctance to take pain meds until she is doubling over or incapacitated. I said "I have never understood your reluctance to take pain meds until it is excruciatingly severe". She says: "I don’t do that". I give examples. Her: "well, I’m not the only person like that". I explain how I’m only concerned with her. Her: "I don’t want to talk about this/let’s change the subject". She did the same exact thing over a conversation related to work. When I tried to talk to her about these avoidant behaviors and use these examples, she did it in THAT conversation! When I pointed that out, she said "I have to defend myself, I can never win with you". I said "there doesn’t have to be winners and losers in conversations. At the end of the day, I am just telling you how to communicate more effectively with ME without triggering me and to possibly become more self aware and improve yourself. Even giving constructive criticism is taken as a "dig" not an act of love and concern. She constantly uses incorrect phrases (like she was saying SNAGFU instead of SNAFU). I explained that was wrong and gave her the acronym that this saying comes from. It’s just me and and her. I’m telling her so she doesn’t say it in a public setting and embarrass herself (like telling someone privately they have spinach in their teeth before a meeting). Of course, it’s taken as a dig and "you must think I’m stupid…." It’s exhausting.

When you see these behaviors and lay them over the "whys" of her affairs (seeking attention, validation, ego kibbles and such), it all just makes sooo much sense. But you can’t heal and improve when you can’t face and work on the root causes….

I think I’d doubt this statement myself if not for my experience with my father. It’s going to take a lot to force my hand, but unfortunately she’s already done about 90% of it. A clear statement of refusing my requirements for R will lead to D. Much more nuanced will be her giving lip service. That could torture me for years. I know I don’t have to tell you.

Careful my friend. My huge concern for you is that Sunk Costs will do you in here and ensnare you in an extremely unhappy situation for a very long time. It's been the impetus behind all of my posts on your recent threads.

Careful my friend. My huge concern for you is that Sunk Costs will do you in here and ensnare you in an extremely unhappy situation for a very long time. It's been the impetus behind all of my posts on your recent threads.

I’m confident enough that I am not being driven by Sunk Costs. I genuinely believe right now that my best possible future is with her, and I think there is a path to reasonable path to that future. It will be undermining that second part, the belief in a reasonable path, that will be hard to come by if ever.

It will be undermining that second part, the belief in a reasonable path, that will be hard to come by if ever.

And that is what I am concerned for. It is why I have been hammering so hard on how specifically your WW has changed after DD2, when she had such a strong incentive to change. If it is clear to you that she WON'T change, you will walk it sounds. But what if it is all too apparent that she CAN'T change. Will your compassion instincts keep you there forever.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 4:32 PM, Sunday, September 24th]