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I have a question. What is the point of this thread? Some WS might have had a deeper connection with their APs, and some might not. Some WS might have meant what they said to their APs, and some might have not. But why is it important to know whether their feelings were real or not?? Whether they were real or not, the only way reconciliation will succeed is if WS purge their system of these feelings and sentiments connected to their APs regardless of the realness of these feelings. How is debating on its realness is going to help BS??

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 5:58 PM, Wednesday, September 13th]

I have a question. What is the point of this thread?

Well, I’ll say what I’ve gotten out of it so far. Affairs are messy, and my experience as a BS is that it was like there was a love triangle and I had problems all around me, problems to be solved with all three corners, myself, WW, and OM. This thread has really helped me solidify in my mind that with respect to the affair, my problem lies fully with my wife. 100%. I am now prepared to largely forget OM’s name (unless the bastard forces himself back into our lives somehow). In the words of my IC this morning, I Exonerate myself. My wife is the only one left standing. That is the point to me.

More than happy to hear what others are taking away.

I wish she hated him, that she would at least go thru a phase of hating him and then come back to indifference.

I agree that indifference is the ultimate goal. If my husband still actively hated his AP, I'd likely be worried she was taking up a little too much headspace. But the 'hate' helped break the spell or the fog or whatever you want to call it. That was kind of my point in the prior post, I think it's easier to get to indifference from hate than it is from love. The hate destroyed any special feelings and it really helped me feel like he was on my side, which was incredibly important to me. One of our wedding vows that we had written ourselves was "I promise to always be on your team."

I thought I loved him because I needed to to do what I was doing. If I didn’t love him, I had to admit I was a bad person.

I imagine that this is the case for your wife InkHulk. She is someone who saved sex until marriage so she probably struggles to separate the two. Waywards will tell themselves all sorts of stories to justify their actions and give themselves the permission structure that allows them to keep their view of themselves in tact. It's not much different than the Wayward who tells themsleves that their spouse is neglecting them emotionally so they deserved to be happy.

I suspect that's a problem with me and how dark my thoughts toward AP are where I've actually lost even basic human empathy for him.

1345Marine - I felt this way too. I don't think I had ever actually hated someone before AP came along, and I didn't like the feeling. I assure you that I don't feel that way anymore.. Don't get me wrong, I'd think twice about spitting on her if she was on fire, but at the end of the day I know she is probably not much different than a lot of Waywards, my husband (aka the person I love more than anyone else ever) included.

Hiking - I always value your posts, but especially when you talk about your whys and resentments and the mental permission structure that allowed you to get into your A. You and my husband could not be more different people and your affairs were also pretty different (his was cake-eating and I believe you have described yours as an exit-affair), but despite all of this, I am always struck by the avoidant/escapist similarities whenever you describe it. I remember how comforting that felt when we were working out/processing our whys, like it meant that we were on the right track. So thank you for continuing to share.

I have a question. What is the point of this thread?

I actually think its a useful exercise for a BS to examine and process their understanding of their WS's feelings in the A (which is something that lots of people clearly struggle with). Not everyone will struggle with the same things - for example, I kind of couldn't believe my husband was willing to "risk it all" for someone he DIDN'T love and had to grapple with that. But clearly it's helping InkHulk process his feelings on this. I mean, look at this great piece of insight/"ah ha moment" below.

If she had married someone else 18 years ago, it’s likely she would have cheated on him. Again, might seem obvious, but that helps separate this thing from me. Is this what it means to process the trauma out of our bodies?

Yes!

Honest to God, true fucking story: I am currently at a work picnic at the very park that my wife met OM at to transition to PA, we are having a corn hole tournament, I just faced a guy with the same name as OM, and I completely kicked his ass. Feeling good today.

I think that "love" should be taken out of this conversation. It can certainly be lust because people are grabbing each other’s clothes off. It also can be excitement because it’s sneaky or it can be hormones flooding the brain. Love is when you’re riding in the car with your Spouse or SO and look over at them and think to yourself how glad you are they are in your life. That’s love. It might feel good, it might even be some hormones but it’s not the first love, that crazy making love. It’s the contented, so glad you’re in my life, kind of love. That’s love. The rest of it is something else.

I have found the thread very informative. I have felt from the beginning that if he felt "lovey" feelings toward the AP I would be out the door. I’m not sure why I feel that way so I want to read more about how other BSs feel about that in order to see if I too would be able to come to terms with it. I have a deep fear that someday the AP is going to crawl out of her hole and come tell me that my husband told her he loved her. That would mean bye bye marriage for me unless somehow I were able to see things in a different light.

This thread has really helped me solidify in my mind that with respect to the affair, my problem lies fully with my wife. 100%

Does this mean you weren't 100% sure your current problem lies fully with your wife??

Anyway, I am glad this thread has been helpful to you.

I actually think its a useful exercise for a BS to examine and process their understanding of their WS's feelings in the A (which is something that lots of people clearly struggle with).

Well, they struggle because they are not the ones who had affair. Since, WS are rarely honest with their BS, it becomes even more difficult for BS to try understand WS feelings in the A. Also, the information and necessary data used to make such analysis is gathered from unreliable WS and taken mostly when they are still in the so called fog which seems to last few years atleast. So, how accurate can this analysis be?

I am not saying this exercise is completely waste of time or useless. But, obviously this exercise has its flaws and BS needs to be aware of them.

Does this mean you weren't 100% sure your current problem lies fully with your wife??

Head knowledge vs heart knowledge, my friend.

Lurking...

But why is it important to know whether their feelings were real or not??

Really?!?!?! I would have VASTLY preferred that my WH had meaningless sex with his AP 1000s of times, gone home, and not had single warm fuzzy emotional feeling about her than be "in love". Vastly - like a million times more.

Why?

IDK - to me sex is just an act. It's an act of betrayal for sure when done behind your back in what you think is a committed relationship BUT it's not an emotional connection in and of itself - or at least it does not have to be (otherwise there would not be so many prostitutes in this world). In my case at least I would say any of my serious sexual relationships (let's define those as the ones that were exclusive and lasted more than a year) all have been like 95% emotion and 5% sex. For me, the emotional connection is the real reason I'm in the relationship - I can get laid anytime and it takes about 2 seconds for me to take of my pants and spread my legs.

So for me, had my WH just been wanting to get laid but was lying to AP in order to get her to have sex with him, or had he been paying her, or whatever - betrayed I certainly would be - but I would not have felt like I was competing with their emotional bond as well as that - that takes time, and commitment, and effort. To me, that was the killer. Granted, I'm a woman, and I'm told we are more likely to feel that way but that's a gross generalization for sure.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 11:25 PM, Wednesday, September 13th]

Really?!?!?! I would have VASTLY preferred that my WH had meaningless sex with his AP 1000s of times, gone home, and not had single warm fuzzy emotional feeling about her than be "in love". Vastly - like a million times more.

I agree. My husband's A was not quite an "emotionless" A (as one might have with a protitute etc) but I found the fact that he did not "love" her to be an incredible relief at the time. I'm sure there are BS's whose spouses had emotional affairs that for whatever reason did not become physical who find relief in that.

I have a deep fear that someday the AP is going to crawl out of her hole and come tell me that my husband told her he loved her.

I feared this too.

But why is it important to know whether their feelings were real or not??

This feels kind of dismissive. Lurking, I'm not super familiar with your story or whether or not you divorced or reconciled, but just because it may not have been your struggle doesn't mean it's not someone else's. Processing the A from the BS's perspective necessarily involves breaking down what you've been told or what you can piece together of a relationship you were purposefully excluded from and trying to come to understand it. If imagine that if you end up trying to reconcile, you might look at this part a little more carefully than if you chose to divorce.

ThisIsSoLonely: thanks for your reply.

I would have VASTLY preferred that my WH had meaningless sex with his AP 1000s of times, gone home, and not had single warm fuzzy emotional feeling about her than be "in love". Vastly - like a million times more.

1000 meaningless sex could point to sex addiction. I believe sex addiction is as bad as falling in love with AP or worse than that. Personally, I would prefer the opposite. For me 'doing it for love' is much easier scenario to deal with because I can clearly see where my WP stands and what options they are offering me. I find it easy to move on from such people. I have done it twice.

Chances of person 'falling out of love' is much higher than a person escaping 'sex addiction'.

Anyway, if purpose of this Turing test is to find out what kind of WS a BS is dealing with,then, yes, it will be helpful.

how cruel it is for you to have to read stuff that is cruel toward APs.

It’s incredible you have that empathy. Honestly, it doesn’t bother me. The anger and confusion of the bs’s here are justified. There were times in my early days when it was triggering, sure. But I had to accept that my actions were worthy of the sorts of things I read here. Six years later, I have changed in many ways for the better, and as a result, it doesn’t trigger me anymore, I understand it more on an intellectual level unless it’s me talking about my own experience.

Emergent- thank you. And yes, the motivations for cheating can be very different but I truly believe most ws are avoidant/escapist. I think most are also either very selfish or very selfless but both having the same root cause. The very selfish can’t get enough for themselves and they are more aggressive or verbal about it. The selfless can’t get enough praise or love so they passive aggressively seek it through acts of service. Both are looking for someone to prove their love to them but they are checking for different symptoms. The selfish one probably is less likely to actually love the AP. They are often looking for sex or some external means to prove their worth. The selfless one is likely looking for love they feel they can’t get, not understanding it’s them who can’t receive it. Both do not love themselves and seek that deep seated need through others. Both are deep down neither selfish or selfless, but really are out of balance because of their relationship with themselves.

Until a ws can delve deep into their soul and figure this all out, and learn to love themselves, something will always be out of sync. You can’t give someone something you don’t have, and you can’t receive what someone has to give because you are only picturing what it should look like because you don’t have it to know what it feels like.It takes a long time to unwind those things and find your way to love yourself and put the fireworks in your own world. Once you do, then you can be in balance within your other relationships. It’s not easy stuff. It’s a life long commitment to yourself to grow and be vigilant.

Inkhulk, I hope that wasn’t too much of a threadjack. I am glad you kicked some ass today.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:07 AM, Thursday, September 14th]

If she had married someone else 18 years ago, it’s likely she would have cheated on him. Again, might seem obvious, but that helps separate this thing from me.

Bingo. I agree wholeheartedly.

Inkhulk, I hope that wasn’t too much of a threadjack. I am glad you kicked some ass today.

Hearing from some new people on this, I’m enjoying that.

I had typed out a whole response to this “which is worse, emotional connection or sex”, and I was going to say SEX SEX SEX, but then I deleted it because it doesn’t track with my opening post here. I’ve said before that the sex was way more impactful to me than the I love you’s, and that is true. But I’m asking myself now if that is still true now that the shock has worn down. You guys may have uncovered a new rabbit hole for me to go down…..

[This message edited by InkHulk at 12:33 AM, Thursday, September 14th]

Emergent:

This feels kind of dismissive.

I wasn't being dismissive of this thread. I was genuinely curious with my question. If the purpose here is to find what kind of W my partner is then I get the point. But, if the purpose is to find the specialness of AP or inadequacies of BS then I don't get the point.

Ink:

which is worse, emotional connection or sex

Why can't both be worse? A genuine question and not dismissive of you.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 12:42 AM, Thursday, September 14th]

I’d so much rather my WW had "fallen in love" with a chatbot than have actual, in the flesh, unprotected sex with a real live man.

The "falling in love" and "in love with him" part of my experience is not what keeps me stuck. It’s the actual sex.

YMMV.

I had typed out a whole response to this "which is worse, emotional connection or sex", and I was going to say SEX SEX SEX, but then I deleted it because it doesn’t track with my opening post here. I’ve said before that the sex was way more impactful to me than the I love you’s, and that is true. But I’m asking myself now if that is still true now that the shock has worn down. You guys may have uncovered a new rabbit hole for me to go down…..

Yes, this is always a debate around here. It comes down to what you value more, really. Sex is tangible moreso than emotions. For many people it’s worse. For others they value the emotions more. I am not saying you didn’t value the emotional piece of your marriage but it may be that you had your needs met more efficiently in that category. Often what we lack creates more value in it. Also people don’t get diseases or pregnancy from emotions, and iys One of few things you can point at that you only do with your spouse.

It’s not always a hard fast rule though. For me, I cheated for emotional reasons, that was my supposed lack (and I was largely to blame for that lack). The sex was a desperate attempt to get that matched. When my husband cheated, the sex bothered me more. But I think it’s because I didn’t believe for a minute if there were feelings they were real or unchangeable. I think true love is rare in affairs. It bothers me because that was the value for him.

So it’s a lot to unpack really.

I’d so much rather my WW had "fallen in love" with a chatbot than have actual, in the flesh, unprotected sex with a real live man.

I had a visceral response to this, WiseOldFool, so that tells me I’m certainly not over the sex part.
And for those BW’s expressing fear that their WH’s might someday be outed as actually having emotional bonds with their AP’s, I guess the corollary for me would have been catching my wife in a deep EA with "I love you"’s tossed all around, and deeply afraid of finding out one day it was actually physical. Now I can understand that fear. So I’m sure I would have been deeply hurt by a non-physical EA, and my Turing test still has validity, but as I got the best of both worlds, the sexual element of it is still the worst of it to me. Just my experience.

I have had patients who were murderers and pedophiles, obviously orders of magnitude worse than what we are discussing, and I was able to find genuine empathy/sympathy etc. It makes me think I should just let my husband go because somehow I can’t quite give him the same level of understanding. Or i can for a day and then the anger creeps back in.

I think this is really good self insight. Might be worth trying to understand better, as resolving it may be a step to a happier life for you. I know this really great Internet forum where people will help you with stuff like that

I wish I had InkHulks ability to forgive or let the anger go. But maybe we just aren’t hearing his angry moments.

You don’t see many of my angry moments (though I’ve had enough on the board to seemingly silence a few people, I hope they can forgive me). But I certainly do have anger that I’m working to get out of the system as much as possible, I see it as a hinderance to what I want, a thriving love relationship with my wife. My propensity to forgive (when the offender is penitent) is probably my most religion influenced trait in all this. I believe that I have been forgiven much and I do not want to face my maker after a life of not being generous in forgiveness.

WalkinOnEggshelz:

Interestingly, after DDay, he was able to throw me under the bus and walk away. Not long after, the affair was an embarrassment. When my actions were broken down and brought to light, there was no way I could even consider that love. I thought I loved him because I needed to to do what I was doing. If I didn’t love him, I had to admit I was a bad person.

I said I loved him. I thought at the time I did. I can assure you, there was nothing loving about my affair. I acted like a child. Once I stopped getting currency from the affair, it no longer held the same value. I feel certain that had I pursued that relationship after DDay, I would be alone and unhappy. I am grateful everyday that my husband allowed me the chance to show him I was worth it.

Well, I must say, this story raises more questions than answers for me.

What if your AP had not thrown you under the bus? Would you still have gone back to your BH? If I were in his shoes I'd be wondering that every day of my life from here on out. I mean, 'my wife fell in love with another man who dumped her and that made her realize how great I am'....that is a story that I sure as hell would not want to be true for me!