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Newest Member: lusciouslou

General :
Completely confused and all over the place

Topic is Sleeping.
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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 5:38 PM on Sunday, May 14th, 2023

I agree with hurthalo on much of what he wrote, but I disagree with his assertion that telling OBS will ensure your W will end her connection with her ap. You tell OBS because their WS is lying to them. After all, revealing the A might cause OBS to D, which frees your W's ap to do anything he wants.

More important, though, is what your W has done and is doing. Being honest about violating vows may be better than keeping it secret, but your W is still violating her vows, assuming you were led to expect monogamy when you proposed and she accepted.

The choice of ap doesn't matter much. Human beings can connect with multiple other human beings. It's not that your W cheated with this specific ap. The problem is that your W thinks it's OK to open your M for herself.

Why put yourself through that? I guess there are some healthy reasons for staying in your M, but OIN has created a great list of reasons for staying, and most are unhealthy. (See https://survivinginfidelity.com/topics/660844/scott-becky-lori-and-guy/.) Do your actions truly serve your best interests or the best interests of your kids?

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:39 PM, Sunday, May 14th]

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex ap
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
You don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 29576   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
id 8790866
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bob7777 ( member #79867) posted at 6:41 PM on Sunday, May 14th, 2023

Sexual intimacy and sex in itself is so important for a relationship, sex creates hormones which in return make you bond to each other emotionally. So you need a healthy amount of sex to keep a healthy relationship unless you prefer to be roommates. SO if someone tells you "it was just sex", it never is just sex. There is always the risk of developing an emotional connection.

posts: 101   ·   registered: Feb. 1st, 2022
id 8790871
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 7:20 PM on Sunday, May 14th, 2023

This was her ex boyfriend. The feelings were there long before they had sex (again).

IIRC,she was talking to him, for years, before she approached Ozzy,and got his stamp of approval for her the have sex with the man(again). This was an EA for years. She may possibly view this man as her soul mate, or "the one that got away." So,if she sold this to Ozzy as "sex only," Mrs Honesty was lying from day one.

Ozzy, it's quite clear that the reason you flat out refuse to tell his wife, is because your wife will be mad,and because, if you did, you would have to take responsibility for your role in this woman's devastation.

You want your wife to take responsibility for her bad behavior while you hide behind yours. You won't, therefore she won't. Eventually, you will see why it was so important. By then,it will be too late.

I will be everywhere you look,but nowhere to be found. And that will be my revenge.

posts: 6332   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8790874
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 Ozzy1788 (original poster member #83108) posted at 8:39 AM on Wednesday, May 17th, 2023

"You need to stop wallowing in this"

"You need to accept 50% of the blame for this"

"I want to move on, we need to put this in a box and never speak about it again"

Hmmm.

posts: 147   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2023   ·   location: UK
id 8791188
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jb3199 ( member #27673) posted at 11:41 AM on Wednesday, May 17th, 2023

"You need to stop wallowing in this"

Wayward speak.

"You need to accept 50% of the blame for this"

Wayward speak.

"I want to move on, we need to put this in a box and never speak about it again"

Can you guess what this is?

BH-50s
WW-50s
2 boys
Married over 30yrs.

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary PuckettD-Day(s): EnoughAccepting that I can/may end this marriage 7/2/14

posts: 4342   ·   registered: Feb. 21st, 2010   ·   location: northeast
id 8791192
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Butforthegrace ( member #63264) posted at 12:38 PM on Wednesday, May 17th, 2023

No to closure meet - this seemed a gamble I admit but it did what was needed as far as ending them seeing each other

This one statement, more than any other from Oz, underscores what is going on here. Note the passive tense structure here. "It did what was needed." Oz's wife has been checked out of the marriage for some time. To remain technically "married" (lower case -- the structural legal/contractual relationship that is primarily financial), she browbeat Oz into grudgingly uttering words of consent, words his heart didn't actually believe, to have adulterous sex with her ex, a man for whom she has long had feelings. The "Marriage" (upper case -- the intimate bond between adults who are truly committed to be good spouses) has long since been done. The dynamic in this marriage: Oz's wife is the one with the proactive role here, the one propelling events. Oz's role has become passive, reactive. Every act Oz has taken as described in this thread -- hence, every response he propounds in his thread -- is motivated by terror over the thought that the lower case "marriage" might come to an end. In the process, he clings on one side to his fantasy of an intact marriage, and on the other side to his retreating wife, gradually stretching thinner and thinner, regardless of the reality that the upper case "Marriage" is long gone. Eventually, this dynamic will cause Oz to snap.

So far, Oz's wife has played along with this charade, but what is forgotten here is that she is an independent actor. As awful as the marital environment is for Oz, it must also be just as awful for her. First, she is trapped in a marital purgatory that her heart clearly doesn't desire, pushed out of a sense of guilt, or obligation, to mime a role she desires to abrogate. Second, her husband, her partner in mime, now harbors a sense of loathing and resentment toward her because of this tryst with the ex. Prior to this debacle, at least he exhibited a meek sort of filial affection. Now, there's not even that in the family home. It can't possibly feel good to live day after day pretending to be married to a man who you know does not trust you. Third, her heart must desire love and affection, just as anybody's does, and it is clear that she doesn't deserve this at home based on her own input into the marriage dynamic. Finally, if she has an ounce of humanity left in her heart, which I reckon she does, she sees that Oz himself is suffering horribly within this dynamic. Ending the marriage simply as an act of kindness to him would be something I could see her doing. Bottom line, though, is that after all of this gnashing and writing in pain, all of the psychological contorting that Oz is doing to prolong the inevitable, it is not only possible but IMO likely the wife will choose to end the marriage at some point.

Which leads me back to the main point emphasized over and over and over on this site when advising newly minted WS: you cannot control the outcome. It is not just fruitless, but actually foolhardy, to try. Gambits, psychological games, demands, ultimatums, pathetically desperate clinging (as here), none of these things can compel another human's heart to love you in a way that is dignified, genuinely affectionate and empathetic, and faithful. Either a spouse feels those emotions genuinely, or she does not. Here, Oz's wife does not. The advice here to the BH is to get one's self out of infidelity. Find your personal emotional truth, and follow it. If your wife wants to be married to you, she will figure out a way to catch up with you and be at your side. If she doesn't do that, then your marriage never had a chance.

This is why posters here including me have been browbeating Oz about telling the OBW. You tell the OBW because it's the morally right thing to do. In some cases, there are ancillary benefits to the BH, such as the OBW becoming an ally in gleaning information about the A, or the OBW blowing it up with the AP, who goes rushing back to his OBW and dumps the WW, shattering her fantasy that what she had with the AP was real. But those aren't the reason to tell. The reason to tell is that it's the right thing to do because the OBW deserves the dignity of making her own decisions about her life informed by her life's truth. Every time a BS tells the OBS, one possible outcome might be that the OBS divorces the AP, freeing up the AP to continue a relationship with the WS. Yet it is still the right thing to do.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 4:55 PM, Wednesday, May 17th]

"The wicked man flees when no one chases."

posts: 4166   ·   registered: Mar. 31st, 2018   ·   location: Midwest
id 8791197
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BluerThanBlue ( member #74855) posted at 1:21 PM on Wednesday, May 17th, 2023

You need to stop wallowing in this"

"You need to accept 50% of the blame for this"

"I want to move on, we need to put this in a box and never speak about it again"

Translation: Shut up. I don’t love you. I don’t care how you feel.

BW, 40s

Divorced WH in 2015; now happily remarried

I edit my comments a lot for spelling, grammar, typos, etc.

posts: 1794   ·   registered: Jul. 13th, 2020
id 8791201
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bob7777 ( member #79867) posted at 5:38 PM on Wednesday, May 17th, 2023

"You need to stop wallowing in this"

"You need to accept 50% of the blame for this"

"I want to move on, we need to put this in a box and never speak about it again"


That ship has sailed, it can't get more obvious than this.

posts: 101   ·   registered: Feb. 1st, 2022
id 8791260
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crazyblindsided ( member #35215) posted at 7:57 PM on Wednesday, May 17th, 2023

"You need to stop wallowing in this"

"You need to accept 50% of the blame for this"

"I want to move on, we need to put this in a box and never speak about it again"

Sorry you cannot work with this. She is as unremorseful as a wayward can get. Detach and move toward D. If that doesn't wake her up you will already be one foot out the door of getting out of infidelity and away from this madness.

fBS/fWS(me):50 Mad-hattered after DD (2008)
XWS:53 Serial Cheater, Diagnosed NPD
DD(20) DS(17)
XWS cheated the entire M spanning 19 years
Discovered D-Days 2006,2008,2012, False R 2014
Divorcing

posts: 8689   ·   registered: Apr. 2nd, 2012   ·   location: California
id 8791288
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 7:58 PM on Wednesday, May 17th, 2023

I'm really surprised she is saying those things, since she is so ashamed of her behavior, and feels hurt over the pain she's caused.

I will be everywhere you look,but nowhere to be found. And that will be my revenge.

posts: 6332   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8791290
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Edie ( member #26133) posted at 10:48 PM on Wednesday, May 17th, 2023

"You need to stop wallowing in this"

"You need to accept 50% of the blame for this"

"I want to move on, we need to put this in a box and never speak about it again

I see no evidence of any accountability or genuine guilt here. As for telling you what ‘you need’ to do… crikey, if she’s still using the rhetoric of blame, I’m feeling my blood boil just a little in reading this on your behalf. This ‘it’ she wants to put in a box is cancerous, it will metastasise through the major lymph nodes of the marriage. Actually going even further, the ‘it’ she wants to put in a box is you, your feelings, your ‘real’ self now actualised in this wake up call.

Whether you let this awakened-you be stifled is up to you. But it’s a watershed that is an opportunity, for authenticity and growth, together or separately. Doesn’t seem there’s any way back, even if she can’t yet see that. But the way forward cannot be based in denial.

Maybe a long walk in the Hindu Kush would do it?
BW (me) 52
FWS 55
Together 29 years; 2 kids 15 & 12
Dday Dec 08 (confessed) R'd.

posts: 6632   ·   registered: Nov. 9th, 2009   ·   location: Europe
id 8791313
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Dennylast ( member #78522) posted at 3:05 PM on Thursday, May 18th, 2023

I agree with the "you need to move on" part. Even if I could swallow the part where you are 50% responsible, what I can’t swallow is my wife saying she is no longer attracted to me. Game over. I too believe this is a manipulation tactic. When you get to the point where you are ready to end this charade, file for D and be prepared to see it through. Then and only then will you get some shred of honesty from her. Also on the 50% your responsibility. My opinion is you do own some of it but not nearly 50%. You need to figure that out and start standing up for yourself. Also, I agree the OBS needs to know the truth. But that is your decision to make.

posts: 118   ·   registered: Mar. 17th, 2021
id 8791394
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sillyoldsod ( member #43649) posted at 9:28 PM on Friday, May 19th, 2023

Ozzy, it's taken a few days to read through this whole thread. It's certainly one of the more unusual situations posted on here.

"You need to stop wallowing in this"

"You need to accept 50% of the blame for this"

"I want to move on, we need to put this in a box and never speak about it again"

Ugh!! barf

'When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. People know themselves much better than you do. That's why it's important to stop expecting them to be something other than who they are'. Maya Angelou.

I totally agree with the responses on here to your post above. Your WW has left you nothing to work with. She's checked out. She appears to have little to no empathy and zero remorse. All she wants to do is brush what she's done under the carpet and point the finger at you but that's NOT going to get the marriage back on track. She needs to own her shit and she's shown herself incapable of doing it.

Please read 'No More Mr Nice Guy' as has previously been recommended. It used to be available as a free download if you google it. Please show your children how a self respecting father acts in the face of adversity and betrayal.

And please remove yourself from infidelity. We understand this is an emotional hurt the like of which you've never felt before in your life but you have to release yourself from the anchor that's pulling you under. Your children are likely much more resilient than you give them credit for.

Best wishes.

I've never met a sociopath I didn't like.

posts: 681   ·   registered: Jun. 7th, 2014   ·   location: UK
id 8791747
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Notmine ( member #57221) posted at 4:47 PM on Sunday, May 21st, 2023

Ozzy -

"You need to stop wallowing in this"

"You need to accept 50% of the blame for this"

"I want to move on, we need to put this in a box and never speak about it again"

Right from the cheater's handbook. Your WW is not unique. Your situation is not unique and here is why:
1. Your wife becomes emotionally attached to someone else because of something SHE lacks. Common story.
2. Your wife asks for an "open marriage" (pretty common here) to have her cake and eat it too. You are not the only BS who has accepted less than they deserve to preserve their way of life and to protect their kids, but it it a miserable existence for all concerned, as you have discovered.
3. Your wife is has the affair.
4. Your wife tells you that she is not attracted to you (common again).
5. Your wife says that she will go NC, remains in the "affair fog", and accepts some sort of contact with the OM. Common
6. Your wife asks for "closure' to see him again. Common
7. Your wife blows up when you discuss telling OW or putting restraints on her behavior which will restrict her ability to live in a fantasy world. She wants to protect the affair partner over you. Common
8. Your wife does not treat you with dignity or respect because she is pissed that she does not get to continue her affair or that she is asked to be accountable. Common
9. Your wife wants to rug sweep her disrespectful/unkind/selfish actions so that she does not have to accept her part. Common
10 Your wife refuses to help you heal from her actions. She is unrepentant, but she is sad and upset. You think this is because of the guilt that she has about hurting you , but in reality it is self-centered. She also refuses to participate fully in reconciliation and is enraged that you are asking her to help you heal. Common
11. Your wife has had a history of inappropriate contact with men. I understand that you do not see it that way, but it really is inappropriate if you look at it objectively. I would be disgusted with the spouse of any of my good friends to behave in such a manner (slapping ass, etc) and I would feel very sorry for their spouse. Even if I said nothing, I would not be ok with another woman interacting with my husband in such a manner. It is not cute. It is sloppy drunken behavior. This scenario is also common to WS.
12. Your wife counts on your past actions to allow her to fulfill whatever needs she has that she does not have the self-esteem to find inwardly. Common
13. You wife manipulates, or tries to manipulate you to avoid the hot seat or shame you because she cannot do what she wants. It is hostile behavior and abusive. Common

Marriage is a compromise. There does not seem to be real compromise going on here. It seems to be her way or the highway. This is not a unique story, when you break it down. Just a garden variety cheater hurting and abusing a kind and faithful soul.

I hear you say that your story is different because you agreed to the sex. OK, but from your posts, she pushed her agenda and you felt you had to agree to it. This is not a unique situation, as I have said. She should have honored and respected you and your marriage enough to understand that it might hurt you and refrain from the affair. If she had true integrity and love for you, she would have. She was also participating in behavior that had the potential of hurting your kids and the kids of the OM. You deserve someone who has the same viewpoint about monogamy and marriage, who is attracted to you and wants to give you joy. Don't be afraid to reach for that.

Ozzy, you AND your kids deserve better than this. You deserve to feel valued and cherished and respected. Your kids deserve to have a mother who does not openly disrespect their father by inappropriately touching other men when you are present and refusing to show compassion after they have hurt their father. Those messages are not good for them as they become adults. The message they should be seeing is of a mutually respectful and loving marriage. I have worked a very long time with kids. It is better for kids to have two loving homes than one dysfunctional one. They need to see a parent who stands up for themselves, can set boundaries and live by them, can leave an abusive situation. You are clearly a loving and compassionate person. Go and get what you and your kids deserve. This ain't it.

Kids notice a LOT more that we give them credit for. They can most likely see that something is going on. If they have seen their mother act in the way you have described around other men, they are probably confused and frightened. Do not discount the idea that the other kids of the group may have noticed or overheard something and will bring this up to your kids, or will as they get older. Again, if you and your wife are separated, her behavior may change for the better. Most importantly, if you do dissolve the marriage, your kids need to know 1. that a divorce or separation is not their fault, 2.that they can count on the love of both parents and 3. that the parents parent in a respectful way. These things are true whether your are together or apart.

When you're going through hell, for God's sake, DON'T STOP!

posts: 756   ·   registered: Feb. 1st, 2017   ·   location: DC
id 8791926
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 Ozzy1788 (original poster member #83108) posted at 11:20 AM on Monday, May 22nd, 2023

I ordered No More Mr Nice guy in paperback. Hopefully it shows up soon!

So I am learning a lot more about her mindset. Reality as she sees it is as follows:

- She doesn't have feelings for me physically and this has been the case for a number of years
- She does love me, and doesn't want the family broken up. She wants to work through things.
- She developed feelings for POSOM. She told me about them. She would NOT have acted on them if I had not agreed (this is important, and explains the taking 50% responsibility comment).
- She wishes she hadn't acted on them as things have totally gone to shit between us
- It doesn't seem fair to her that she had to end her friendship with him, but she has done (though she refuses to delete him from FB). There has not been direct contact though. If we had our time again she would still be friends with him and would not have gone physical (I know this would be an EA but I am explaining her mindset)
- She needs time to work things out for herself. She wants our relationship to work
- And this is why she just wants to forget about all of that and try to move on

Listed out like that, I can see it from her point of view. But obviously it doesn't change anything about how hurt I have been by all of this. Any chatting about any of this recently has been instigated by her, I think she has noticed the shift in my mood. I of course don't feel like I should take anywhere near 50% responsibility! But trying to pretend that isn't her point of view isn't helpful. As others have said there is no point me trying to change her mindset...

Hellfire:

So,if she sold this to Ozzy as "sex only," Mrs Honesty was lying from day one.

She never said this. She said she had feelings for him and really liked him. I know it was an EA. Her refusal to acknowledge it and want to just forget about it is my real sticking point right now. She won't change her mindset so my choices are to deal with that and see if things can get back to at least being amicable, or leave. Not a decision I am going to take lightly. But I am certainly not enjoying being married to someone who feels nothing for me physically. I have read a lot of useful stuff about not basing my perception of her solely on the last few months though. Her judgement and actions have been clouded so erasing almost 2 decades from my memory because of that would be silly.

@Notmine: Thanks for your post. I agree with all of it. I'm struggling to see a way forward for us but I just need to make sure that all avenues have been explored. She is going to try hypnotherapy next so she is trying...

posts: 147   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2023   ·   location: UK
id 8791991
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Dennylast ( member #78522) posted at 12:07 PM on Monday, May 22nd, 2023

So is she saying she has a platonic love for you now? This seems off to me. I’ll ask everyone is this a thing or does it seem like a justification for stepping out? I could not stay married in this circumstance. She says this to you often. It seems out of place to say to someone she loves. What do you say to her when she says this?

posts: 118   ·   registered: Mar. 17th, 2021
id 8791996
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Edie ( member #26133) posted at 12:11 PM on Monday, May 22nd, 2023

I just need to make sure that all avenues have been explored. She is going to try hypnotherapy next so she is trying...

Sex therapy on the agenda at all?

Any chatting about any of this recently has been instigated by her, I think she has noticed the shift in my mood. I of course don't feel like I should take anywhere near 50% responsibility!

Good that she’s instigating conversations now and sensing your shift in mood. And that your 180 is helping your resolve. Her POV, btw, may have regrets but seems to not yet be expressing remorse or empathy for you (or OBS) at least from what she’s saying (as below), and does not appear to be as willing to make efforts to understand your POV as you hers.

It doesn't seem fair to her that she had to end her friendship with him

🤷‍♀️

she refuses to delete him from FB

🤷‍♀️

[This message edited by Edie at 1:18 PM, Monday, May 22nd]

Maybe a long walk in the Hindu Kush would do it?
BW (me) 52
FWS 55
Together 29 years; 2 kids 15 & 12
Dday Dec 08 (confessed) R'd.

posts: 6632   ·   registered: Nov. 9th, 2009   ·   location: Europe
id 8791997
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Trdd ( member #65989) posted at 2:34 PM on Monday, May 22nd, 2023

Ozzy, I appreciate that you laid out her pov and I too see that her asking you up front does change the dynamics a bit. Not to 50/50 in my eyes but yes it's not the norm. However, that doesn't change the pain you have or mean rugsweeping is the right avenue. I know you know that.

I continue to struggle with the idea "she feels nothing for you physically but loves you". I guess that may be because I have never felt exactly that in my marriage but it keeps creeping in that something is off with her thinking. I have been married a long time, significantly longer than you. Is the pure physical drive for my wife the same as it was 30+ years ago? No, it isn't. Would I be potentially more sexually excited if I went off and slept with a diffetent woman? Yes, I probably would be. But the very fact that I love her means I desire intimacy with her and that includes sex. I can see that your wife may not have quite the fire for you she once did because I think this is common. To varying degrees, we have to work at keeping that fire stoked as we grow older together. But I personally can't understand someone saying I love my husband but have zero desire to be with him physically.

I don't know if my problem with that is because I just havent experienced it. Maybe it happens regularly, who knows? Or maybe your wife is screwed up in how she thinks about love and sex? Or maybe she really doesn't love you?

The sex therapist idea may have merit.

posts: 889   ·   registered: Aug. 27th, 2018   ·   location: US
id 8792007
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 Ozzy1788 (original poster member #83108) posted at 2:59 PM on Monday, May 22nd, 2023

So is she saying she has a platonic love for you now? This seems off to me. I’ll ask everyone is this a thing or does it seem like a justification for stepping out? I could not stay married in this circumstance. She says this to you often. It seems out of place to say to someone she loves. What do you say to her when she says this?

I guess it is the love for someone who has looked after her, been with her through thick and thin, been a great dad to her kids etc. Difficult to just switch those feelings off when I am not an arsehole.

I continue to struggle with the idea "she feels nothing for you physically but loves you". I guess that may be because I have never felt exactly that in my marriage but it keeps creeping in that something is off with her thinking. I have been married a long time, significantly longer than you. Is the pure physical drive for my wife the same as it was 30+ years ago? No, it isn't. Would I be potentially more sexually excited if I went off and slept with a diffetent woman? Yes, I probably would be. But the very fact that I love her means I desire intimacy with her and that includes sex. I can see that your wife may not have quite the fire for you she once did because I think this is common. To varying degrees, we have to work at keeping that fire stoked as we grow older together. But I personally can't understand someone saying I love my husband but have zero desire to be with him physically.

Ha I struggle with this too! And agree that if you threw some supermodel at me and everything was new of course it would be exciting. But I totally agree that the love for my wife means that the physical feelings remain as well. I can't imagine what it is like to feel the way she does either. A big part of it is midlife crisis / "is this it?" feelings. But yes, very hard to take, not only the here and now but the thought that for years she has only been with me physically more out of "duty" rather than actually wanting to.

Ozzy, I appreciate that you laid out her pov and I too see that her asking you up front does change the dynamics a bit. Not to 50/50 in my eyes but yes it's not the norm. However, that doesn't change the pain you have or mean rugsweeping is the right avenue. I know you know that.

Don't get me wrong, this is very much her point of view. I (before I 180d to the point I am now) brought up a conversation / argument we had about 4 days before D-Day (when we had "agreed", but nothing had happened) where I was really unhappy that she was clearly texting him while sat with me. Not the actions of someone completely down with the situation. But she seems to forget these moments and focus on one conversation in particular where I was in a better space about it, but also remember saying to her that day I would rather it wasn't happening at all and I am only being OK as it is a coping mechanism. Anyway, dwelling on that stuff is pretty pointless as she isn't going to change her mindset.

I think sex therapy is a great idea but the idea of talking anything sex when it comes to me is not something she wants right now! Sadly I am not sure we will get to a point where it would be possible before things have ended.

posts: 147   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2023   ·   location: UK
id 8792009
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Murkywaters ( member #60252) posted at 3:00 PM on Monday, May 22nd, 2023

I continue to struggle with the idea "she feels nothing for you physically but loves you".

I bet most of us here struggle with this idea. I'm trying to imagine me telling my wife this or vice versa and things working out between us.

I think maybe she is holding onto this -everything is great but the physical part- because she's willing to wait to start sleeping with other men again but she isn't willing to give it up. She'll try to work things out for a while and then hold the marriage hostage again against opening it up.

posts: 136   ·   registered: Aug. 21st, 2017   ·   location: US
id 8792011
Topic is Sleeping.
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