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I am sorry Ozzie but your WW is walking all over you. And you seem to be allowing it!

I don't know what you are looking for here, as you have dismissed basically EVERY bit of advice you have been given. I do hope that you wake up.

Ozzie, what do you have to lose by seeing a lawyer and serving her with D papers? Even if you still don’t want to divorce her, it is you single best chance to wake her up. You have plenty of time to stop the proceedings. You must be prepared to follow through though. It seems you’re inching closer to the point. It is tough. Many of us have been in your shoes. That is why it is obvious to us what your best path likely is. And in your shoes there really is no down side. Wishing you strength to get through this horrible situation that the person you trusted the most has put you in.

You’re way beyond needing the 180, Ozzy. You need a lawyer.

If your wife wants to behave as a single woman, then she should be a single woman.

I brought up the fact that she is treating me worse than friends and she exploded saying as I don't shut the fuck up it is making me less and less attractive to her.

Unfortunately, that's the problem with trying to "nice" a WS back into the relationship. It gives her the impression that she's in charge and that you should be jumping through her hoops trying to please her. Then, whatever any irritation pops up, she's got an ax to grind and you're the one who's wrong. You've established a baseline of what treatment she expects at that point. She's in the one up and you're in the one down.

Ultimately, the goal is to be equal partners, right? What often works best though after infidelity is that the BS's needs are prioritized, so that the WS can EARN their way back into attunement. You see how much the infidelity has amplified the injury of your WW's comment. If none of this other stuff had happened, sure, it would have stung because it's a mean, selfish thing to say, but it's unlikely you would have felt this level of devastation over it.

Because your WW is able to fall back on your permission, she doesn't see herself as a WS who needs to atone if she wants to stay. She's very comfortable seeing herself as a "prize" who you need to be trying to "win". From the outside looking in, this still looks to me like the sticking point is whether or not she recognizes that she coerced your agreement. You've said many times that you felt like you didn't have a choice. That seems to me to be the starting point for recovery if there's going to be one.

I'm sorry for what you're going through. I expect you feel really stuck right now. One way or another though, we do get through it. You will too.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 2:23 PM, Friday, May 5th]

So sadly spending time together clearly hasn't worked! Will need to 180 further once home.

Understatement of the year award? My friend, your house is burning to the ground. The obvious answer is that you need to run out of it. Spending more time inside, quietly contemplating fate under the aegis of "the 180", that's only going to get you burned.

Ozzy, did you read any other stories of betrayed spouses before you posted here? If so, were you able to find any similar behavior of your partner or any similar development of others BS stories that resembled your own? When I started my journey I was "amazed", nothing was the same on a 1:1 level, but it was sort of all the same, it hurt then
Your whole story just turned sour and sad, you had so much popularity and advice, you clung to your take on it, there was so much warning, you followed your heart and your partner's "honesty".
Regarding your partner's "honesty", what is "honesty" worth if there's no respect

I brought up the fact that she is treating me worse than friends and she exploded saying as I don't shut the fuck up it is making me less and less attractive to her.

? It's like telling a random person how shitty they are doing their job and ugly they look, it's honest, you can excuse that much, but there's respect missing. People tried to make you realize about her "honesty", I did, but it seemed it was your last ripcord which you held dearly.
You asked people why your WW doesn't feel attracted to you anymore, you got advice from both sides, I gave mine, you didn't listen. Are you at least listening when your wife told you without any restraint

I brought up the fact that she is treating me worse than friends and she exploded saying as I don't shut the fuck up it is making me less and less attractive to her.

? It's basically what you were told by us, she cheated on you walked all over you, you took it all in, sucked it up and now you're acting all clingy and pouty. She doesn't respect you in any kind since you've become such a meek man. And any objection from your side is annoying her.
I feel helpless watching you.

At some point the advice here will sink in, your WW will not only continue to abuse you, but also will double down as she sees you as weak and inactive. Then you will simply say enough is enough and take the hard and difficult actions that are required. Or, she will make that decision for you. It’s one of the above or a combination.

Until that point you will needlessly continue to suffer. I don’t ascribe your suffering right now to your WW, as we already know what kind of person she is. Your suffering is fully attributable to you because you refuse to take care of you.

So what’s my advice, take care of you!

I admit, I stopped considering you to be a BS. In order to be a BS, IMO, you have to..well..be betrayed. Your spouse has had to have an affair,of some kind. And you didn't qualify..in MY opinion. After all, you insisted she has told you the entire truth,the entire time. And you gave your blessing to be with another man. So..no betrayal..no affair.

With her present behavior? Now you are a BS. She is obviously 100% fishing for a new partner. And, because you gave your blessing before, she expects it again. It's why she's doing it in front of you. We told you once she cut contact with the boyfriend, she would be looking for another man to provide those ego kibbles. Because it was never about that particular man. The problem is her. She is lashing out in an attempt to manipulate you into okaying another "escape." She's going to waffle between mean and hateful,and apologetic and loving. She's going to attempt to get you "completely confused and all over the place" until she threatens you with divorce to get her way.

And, Ozzy, if you give in, your life will be miserable for the rest of the time you are with her. It will be new escape after another, because she's not fixing what is very broken within her.

She claimed to be horrified, so ashamed of her previous actions with the married man. Yet..here she is..fishing for another man. It's why we begged you to tell the other man's wife(one of hundreds of reasons). You were sure neither would ever be with another person again, while they were married. Because they just felt terrible. But,true to form..they don't. She never did. Her mask keeps slipping. Eventually you will figure that out.

[This message edited by HellFire at 8:07 PM, Friday, May 5th]

Wow, Hellfire, that was good stuff, and you too, ChamomileTea. I agree that moving forward requires two actions for Ozzy to reclaim agency over his life:

1) Ozzy needs to assert his belief that he was cornered into accepting the original "deal" upon threat of losing his children.
2) Ozzy needs to tell the OBS, to clear his own moral debt. It would be an act of regaining the initiative from WW, showing that you are in the driver's seat, and it may help shock and awe her back to reality. You may even learn things you didn't know.

I suppose that many would include 3) file for divorce. Start the clock for WW to come out of the fog.

Another thing: Ozzy, you are primarily motivated by whats best for your children. You were able to compartmentalize your life, thinking that this "deal" would never have any effect on them, but even if everything worked out great, humans are whole beings. They may never have learned what was up, but it would have impacted them.

she exploded saying as I don't shut the fuck up it is making me less and less attractive to her.

Of course you as her conscience are going to be unpalatable to her. She’s rather queening it around. Maybe booze was involved or not, i suspect it was; whether it reveals the real behind the mask is not yet clear, but her response is deeply narcissistic, spiteful and quite frankly unattractive, boot on the other foot or what. A proper 180 means you need not be bothered if she considers herself the prize or not. But I would if I were you in fact ‘shut the fuck up’ for real now and not be communicating anything. Beyond the basic of kids stuff. Not to turn that power dynamic around and disavow her that she is the prize (although that needs to happen as CT points out) but with such hurtful words being thrown around, boundaries and consequences now need to be established, respond don’t react. You don’t even need to communicate them, you just need to act on them. I’m sorry, I’m frankly dismayed at her behaviour, you’re now cast as bad guy for splitting her and OM up, and she’s making you pay, rather cruelly and pettily. I’d have probably left the holiday by now myself (citing work to the kids).

Are these men that she’s flirting and grab-assing with married? I assume you’re traveling with other couples. How do their wives feel about her behavior and how is everyone reacting?

Just a quick note on whats "best for the children"

Children are entitled to a mother and father who love each other, love each child, are faithful to each other, and who support each other as a unified team.

I want you to consider the example you and your wife are currently presenting to your children. They see see and understand more than you realize. I remember well when i used to think, "maybe i should tolerate this humiliation for the sake of my kids, and keeping this family unit intact"

Dude... your family unit is not intact. It is broken, it is fractured, and it has a CANCER that is going to consume everything.
Staying together with an unrepentant spouse, who is unwilling to navigate towards complete unity is MORE damaging to your children then cutting the cord and starting over in seperate families

You want your kids to be raised in a household of love and support right? Currently, that's not what your providing.

I don't prefer if your R or D, but you have got to make changes, the pick me dance hurts your kids too.

And regardless if you R or D, it's time to stop allowing yourself to be emasculated, abused, and humiliated.

How often are you going to the Gym? How often are you drinking alcohol? Have you gone to get an STD test yet? (i don't recall)
You cannot control your wife. You can only control you, and you need to stop being reactive.

Focus on being the best you, and being the best father that you can "for the kids" and that may mean cutting cancer out of your life.

and if you'd like things to keep going how they are going---

keep doing exactly what you are doing.

It's working perfectly.... for her.

and lastly:

We're with good friends who she always would have been silly and flirty with and that always would have been fine

It's not fine. It never should have been fine.
It seems to me you've had problems in your marriage for a long, long time, perhaps the entirety.

[This message edited by swoned at 6:46 AM, Sunday, May 7th]

Have ordered no more Mr Nice Guy.

Don't read too much into the flirting stuff. Honestly, we've been friends with these people a very long time and been through a lot.

But things have been said which have really resonated. Bob777 - I agree with what you said. This whole honesty bullshit is just that now. It doesn't make up for the lack of respect and hurt.

The talk about D - it would just be a bluff right now. As Edie keeps saying, as shit as all this is I'm not triggering that due to how final it would be for the boys. And Edie I am completely dismayed... I know I need to give space but I thought some sort of light bulb might have started glimmering in her mind. But nope, just an insistence none of this is to do with the affair.

Hard to type on phone, back from holiday in a couple of days. Can't leave as not with kids and flights hard to come by (and don't want to! Why should i)

Thanks all

as shit as all this is I'm not triggering that due to how final it would be for the boys

Mate, a divorce is not going to harm your boys as much as them watching their Dad being utterly disrespected by a remorseless cheater in the form of their mother for the rest of his life. Gently, the best lesson you can show them is how not to be treated by a partner.

You have told her you are hurting. She has told you to quote, 'shut the f&?k up about it.'

So far she's calling all the shots without one hint of consequence or accountability. She's literally laughing in your face while she stabs you in the chest.

Sorry. Moved my response to your other thread

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 4:23 PM, Sunday, May 7th]

What gets many couples to the point of indifference in marriage, resentment, lack of intimacy snd connection is precisely due to putting their children in between their marriage. They prioritize their children over their marriage and the marriage suffers.

When a couple prioritizes their relationship, not only does their M flourish but their kids as well. Children are smart. They know when their parents relationship is meh or great. They understand snd thrive when they see their parent’s relationship thrive, understanding where their proper place is in the M dynamic.

Last night my wife snd were out to dinner with a few couples, one of which was minutes away from divorce a few months ago. We referred them our MC, and they have been going weekly for three months. My wife snd I have always observed an extremely negative M dynamic in that their child is the center of their universe, snd each of them compete with each other wrt their kid.

The husband pulled me aside last night and said, begin paraphrase: the M is now 100 percent improved, thank you for helping to save our M. I thanked him and said, I’ve never said this to you before, but in my opinion, you and your wife’s unhealthy dynamic surrounding your kid has been a major contributor to your M problems. Did you discuss this in therapy and now fully understand this.

He replied, OMG absolutely. Among our other issues this definitely sits on top of the list. In fact, we were going to visit our daughter in college next weekend (it would have been their ten thousandth visit in two years), but instead we’re going to spend a romantic weekend together. And, by the way, we had not had sex in two years, snd last weekend we had animal sex, tonight we’ll do the same, and next weekend as well. No thoughts of our daughter. End paraphrase.

So two things. First, you and your WW are equally responsible for the deterioration of the M dynamic, snd the fact that you, and perhaps she as well, inserted your children into the M dynamic in a negative way most probably was a contributor.

Second, you’re now doubling down on this by insisting on prioritizing your children over your personal needs, health, and welfare as it relates to dealing with your WWs A and abusive behavior. You are thus exasperating your problems many fold.

So I strongly recommend that you take your children out of the equation and take actions that will positively impact you personally. You need to flip your mindset around. Instead of, I’m being treated terribly by my WW and am extremely unhappy as a result, so I need to focus on my children to protect them and make them happy to, my children will be better protected snd happier as a result of me taking care of me and prioritizing myself as it relates to my WWs abusive treatment.

Your children will be much better off as a result.

Don't read too much into her flirting?

So you're cool with your wife,who has no desire or respect for you,touching other men's asses,and flirting with them.

JFC.

Flirting is never ok for a married person. It's sending signals that you want them. It doesn't matter how long you've known them.

I guarantee their wives might smile about it,but they don't trust their husbands with your wife.

Why should you leave?? Maybe to let your supposed wife know you won't tolerate that behavior?

Don't read too much into the flirting stuff. Honestly, we've been friends with these people a very long time and been through a lot.

This is basically a summary of every single one of your posts in a nutshell:

You: "Here is this horribly disrespectful thing that my wife did that really hurt and degraded me."

Us: "Wow, that’s really messed up! Your wife shouldn’t be treating you that way. You should do something."

You: "C’mon guys why are you making such a big deal over this little thing?"

Not to be dramatic, but I feel like I’m being virtually gaslit every time I read a response from you.

What is it you’re trying to get out this site? I’m not saying that you need to take everyone’s advice but I don’t see what the point is if you’re going be so dismissive.

P.S. I’m going to reiterate my point from my last comment… there’s no way in the hell that the wives of these men are cool with how your wife is acting, especially knowing of your marital struggles. At the very least, your friends are talking about this behind your back.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 9:49 PM, Sunday, May 7th]

Let's really look at her flirting with your friends...instead of dismissing it.

She's told them all she isn't attracted to you anymore. They are all aware of your marital issues..because she broadcasted it to them.

She then spends her time flirting with them,and TOUCHING THEIR ASSES, while either ignoring you,or treating you like a friend. She's not treating your friends like friends. Just you.

Then she gets angry at you for being upset with her completely inappropriate behavior, and threatens you telling you you need to shut your mouth.

If you think the wives of these men just laugh at her touching their husbands, and shrug their shoulders,you're blind. They may pretend to be ok,but I guarantee, behind closed doors, her behavior is being discussed. And your willingness to accept her disrespect is also being discussed. The men are either enjoying her attention, or it's making them uncomfortable.

Blue is right. You come here and tell us about her shitty actions, we agree,and give you solutions to stop that disrespect, then you attempt to shame and dismiss us because it's really no big deal to you.

[This message edited by HellFire at 12:45 AM, Monday, May 8th]