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Newest Member: Jesse123

General :
Completely confused and all over the place

Topic is Sleeping.
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yellowledbetter ( member #70518) posted at 12:51 AM on Monday, May 8th, 2023

As strangers on the internet, this is painful to witness. Imagine how the people around you feel, including your kids. It’s sad.

Stop with the excuses. Why are you tolerating this crap?

Me: BW 52, WH 55, LTA, AP 20 yrs younger. Married 33 yrs, together for 36
3 adult children
DDay Dec19/2018
Attempting Reconciliation….still.

~where there is deep grief, there was great love.

posts: 142   ·   registered: May. 9th, 2019   ·   location: Canada
id 8790034
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Edie ( member #26133) posted at 9:07 AM on Monday, May 8th, 2023

As Edie keeps saying, as shit as all this is I'm not triggering that due to how final it would be for the boys

To be clear, I said I considered it from all angles for the sake of the children before eventually deciding to R and I had a remorseful WS and he also knew he had to do a lot to earn the chance of R, and we had had a great relationship, despite his affair (s). Not once would he ever have said anything as cruel and solipsistic as your wife has said to you, even in his foggiest state. You say you are taking this shit for the sake of the children. That’s very different. I didn’t take any shit. He did in fact have to spend some nights in a sleeping bag in a cold office at his place of work while I had space to think. He knew very well that I was at a crossroads. Your WS does not seem to get that, so sickeningly full of herself she seems to be. Please step back from the financial ruin you say separation would bring and REALLY consider it from all angles.

As to the flirting, make up your mind, you’re sounding quite confused and contradictory on the matter.

[This message edited by Edie at 9:56 AM, Monday, May 8th]

Maybe a long walk in the Hindu Kush would do it?
BW (me) 52
FWS 55
Together 29 years; 2 kids 15 & 12
Dday Dec 08 (confessed) R'd.

posts: 6632   ·   registered: Nov. 9th, 2009   ·   location: Europe
id 8790057
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Lurkingsoul12 ( member #82382) posted at 9:22 AM on Monday, May 8th, 2023

Dude, you are taking this "take what you want and leave the rest" mantra in a very wrong way. You interpret people's advice in a way you want to and not in a way it has been written. You always twist the message that people give here to fit your flawed narrative.

posts: 456   ·   registered: Nov. 12th, 2022
id 8790058
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 Ozzy1788 (original poster member #83108) posted at 3:47 PM on Wednesday, May 10th, 2023

Back from holiday and had time to collect my thoughts.

Firstly, important to say as I don't think this has been very clear: I am an extremely analytical person. I am not autistic but I do carefully take in information and process it before making decisions (this is the same with the type of work I do - mistakes can be costly so being rash isn't something I do). So please don't think I am being dismissive of anything - reading back and I can see why it looks that way, but I am taking everything in and handling things as situations change and arise.

On the flirting, different people have different tolerances for such things. I don't agree with 'flirting is never OK' and never have. The way she behaved with the other friends was no different to how she would normally be, and how the other girls would be with me, etc etc. We are old friends who are stupid together. The difference this time is that she was being less affectionate to me than friends and that wasn't cool. The others agreed with me on this. BUT they were not worried that she is trying to form a relationship with the other guys. It isn't that dynamic at all.

On the last night it was just my wife and I (we were on a later night than the friends) and I told her again that seeing her like that was a complete tease and desperately cruel. She seemed to listen, but wasn't apologetic. There were a few other things said though in the last few days which I won't bore you with which have taken me to the next level of apathy / indifference.

I know it may seem slow going but I am getting there! I have now officially given up on her showing any remorse and won't be offering my advice to her on anything. Just before we left I placed "Not Just Friends" on her bedside table and said "I won't force you but you really, really should read this". I know she won't as she doesn't think there was an EA before any "agreement".

I also don't think she is fishing for "another man" per se, she is just not making any attempt to fix things with me. She repeatedly said it was so that she didn't give me a false impression that things were better between us, to which I said I know they are bad but the way she is acting is basically giving no hope whatsoever. Anyway that is how things have been left for now really. I'll give her that space she has been craving. I am not going to run out the door right this second but I am definitely heading in that direction mentally.

We both have IC sessions again this week and have an assessment with a CC on Friday so hopefully that might lead to some revelations on her part. There needs to be!

Finally, other than not telling BS is there anything else that I have adamantly not done which has been advised to me? Filing for D I guess (which could still happen, as could telling BS). Again, early days and I am not rushing anything.

posts: 147   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2023   ·   location: UK
id 8790314
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Dennylast ( member #78522) posted at 4:40 PM on Wednesday, May 10th, 2023

You seem to be going in the right direction. There are others on here that proceeded slower some with good results. But the one thing they have in common was at some point, they stopped rolling over and taking it. Whether you R or D will depend on your wife. Btw, did you read not just friends?

posts: 118   ·   registered: Mar. 17th, 2021
id 8790320
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 5:05 PM on Wednesday, May 10th, 2023

Maybe that is the way she had always acted with your married,male friends,and their wives have been ok with it.

However, there has been a very definite change in your marriage,since the last time she ran around flirting, and grabbing the asses of these married men. Your wife isn't into her husband, and doesn't feel married anymore.

If you think the wives of these men are all still viewing her behavior as they may have done in the past, you're in denial. Your wife is conducting herself as a single woman. No married woman, who isn't poly,is ok with another woman touching her husband.

After all..you, yourself, are saying that this behavior was fine in the past,and would be fine now, if she wasn't treating you so coldly. Do you really find it hard to believe that the wives,who were once ok with her flirting with their husbands, are no longer all that ok with it, because her marriage to you is no longer stable? She really needs to check her behavior.

It's not a shock that you think married people flirting is cool. You were ok sharing your wife with another woman's husband. Maybe,eventually, you will begin to rethink your thought processes,and come to a different perspective.

Your wife has zero remorse. She's not even apologizing. Odd..because she told you she was so ashamed of her behavior before.

Clearly she's not as sorry,or ashamed, as she(the Pilar of honesty!!) claimed to be.

She's doing nothing to salvage the marriage. You should take that for what it is.

[This message edited by HellFire at 6:33 PM, Wednesday, May 10th]

I will be everywhere you look,but nowhere to be found. And that will be my revenge.

posts: 6340   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8790322
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bob7777 ( member #79867) posted at 5:09 PM on Wednesday, May 10th, 2023

Ozzy, being analytical is the part what is hindering you. I once was the same, stories here show many BS who themselves went that analytical way and their stories are in sync with yours, these stories never seem to come to an end, the last one I remember is DrStrangelove's story, he did it the same way, tried to analyse it from any angle, several 100 posts later he arrived at the start again, went in circles again and again. Being analytical is a good thing, but being betrayed requires to make a decision, being analytical is detrimental imho, because you use every bit of your energy not to come to a conclusion. As an excuse you try to find more and more angles to rationalize and minimize. You just use it to procrastinate. I used my analytical ways to stay in limbo until I was open enough to see that my relationship wasn't as special as I thought it was.
The thing with your SO, that she doesn't feel affectionate with you or treats you respectful is simple, she treats you so less because you are not important to her anymore and she doesn't have to pretend anymore, the paint is off. Regardless being in love or not, being in a relationship is always a power dynamic, that said people will do things they normally won't. This includes treating people with respect and "love", because they want something in return or because the opposite person is important to them. You are not anymore. The power dynamic in your "relationship" has shifted.

posts: 101   ·   registered: Feb. 1st, 2022
id 8790324
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WonderingGhost ( member #81060) posted at 5:10 PM on Wednesday, May 10th, 2023

Finally, other than not telling BS is there anything else that I have adamantly not done which has been advised to me? Filing for D I guess (which could still happen, as could telling BS). Again, early days and I am not rushing anything.

Polygraph.

posts: 108   ·   registered: Oct. 1st, 2022
id 8790325
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Butforthegrace ( member #63264) posted at 5:20 PM on Wednesday, May 10th, 2023

She repeatedly said it was so that she didn't give me a false impression that things were better between us, to which I said I know they are bad but the way she is acting is basically giving no hope whatsoever. Anyway that is how things have been left for now really. I'll give her that space she has been craving.

The genesis of this thread was a situation where you consented to your wife fucking another man (who in the process was cheating on his own wife -- so in other words you were also complicit in that). I don't think it has been expressly addressed in this thread, but my impression from your posts is that she subtly (or maybe not so subtly) browbeat you into this consent under an implied "consent or I'm leaving you" message. This dynamic is so awful. An admixture of infidelity and some species of forced cuckolding. In ways it was more emasculating than garden variety cheating.

Since then, she has bullied you repeatedly into backing down with respect to what you need to heal from this. Continued pattern of emasculation and disrespect. The above comment, reminding you that things aren't better between you, is just more of the same. My friend, how much more data do you need to conclude the obvious: the role you have taken in this relationship, that she has thrust you into really, is not healthy for you. Other than telling the OBW, there isn't one big thing you have done wrong. Rather, a thousand little things. Committing suicide, via the death of a thousand cuts. It's so painful to watch.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 8:18 PM, Wednesday, May 10th]

"The wicked man flees when no one chases."

posts: 4166   ·   registered: Mar. 31st, 2018   ·   location: Midwest
id 8790327
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lrpprl ( member #80538) posted at 5:52 PM on Wednesday, May 10th, 2023

Ozzy...

Buddy, one thing to think about where she is not remorseful. It seems she turned that way after you asked her to quit having sex with that guy. My opinion is that she is going through withdrawal pains from her hotwife escapades. Also, even though it was originally supposed to be No Strings Attached sex, she ended up bonding with him and, I hate to tell you this, but she actually fell into some sort of limerance, love type bonding with him.

Since you took away her dopamine high drug of choice (illicit sex) with him, she is resenting you to high heaven. She is acting like a child who had their toys or candy taken away. Just expect her to continue on this path.

I think you will eventually rug sweep this whole thing, or go back and consent to her having sex with him again. You may say you won't, but I think you will. Just my opinion.

posts: 254   ·   registered: Aug. 12th, 2022   ·   location: USA
id 8790330
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Lurkingsoul12 ( member #82382) posted at 5:52 PM on Wednesday, May 10th, 2023

Finally, other than not telling BS is there anything else that I have adamantly not done which has been advised to me? Filing for D I guess (which could still happen, as could telling BS). Again, early days and I am not rushing anything.

No to closure meet.
Total NC with her AP.
No to pick me dance- like vacations, Going out with her etc etc.
Enforcing 180.

posts: 456   ·   registered: Nov. 12th, 2022
id 8790331
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Edie ( member #26133) posted at 7:48 PM on Wednesday, May 10th, 2023

Regarding the flirting, I have no moral issues per se in the way you describe it as normal cultural currency in your milieu (this from someone who doesn’t know how to nor see when it’s being done with her btw so am no expert!), except you previously seemed to suggest it was an issue for you, so seem to be flip-flopping on the matter. But my main point in commenting is that you are giving your WW far too much commentary for someone who says they are doing the 180. Can’t you see she seems to (from the info you give us) be taking any comments (re how she treats you) like an adolescent would when a parent accuses them of treating the house like a hotel. Water off…

That’s not boundaries. Instead, to a foggy WS, it’s whining. And ineffective. She isn’t remorseful and she isn’t listening. She doesn’t sound even interested.

Everybody’s interpretation of the 180 is different. I’m talking rather more hardline 180 than you seem to be doing as you are trying to keep communication open (like one might in R) and giving her rent free access to your thoughts and head.

Really try not to do this, for your own sense of well-being. No more books, reaching out, trying to evangelise & change her. The 180 is about looking at you, not her in such a focused way.

But you remain very focused on her. Something to think about in IC.

[This message edited by Edie at 8:24 PM, Wednesday, May 10th]

Maybe a long walk in the Hindu Kush would do it?
BW (me) 52
FWS 55
Together 29 years; 2 kids 15 & 12
Dday Dec 08 (confessed) R'd.

posts: 6632   ·   registered: Nov. 9th, 2009   ·   location: Europe
id 8790346
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 Ozzy1788 (original poster member #83108) posted at 4:47 PM on Friday, May 12th, 2023

did you read not just friends

Yep I did. Was very interesting, but much more so from her point of view. Sadly she won't be reading it.

No married woman, who isn't poly,is ok with another woman touching her husband.

Apologies Hellfire, I know we disagree on many things but this one I can categorically say that these women have no problem with it in this dynamic. HOWEVER they can see how inappropriate it was at this moment in time. But they are not worried that my wife is after their husbands.

Clearly she's not as sorry,or ashamed, as she(the Pilar of honesty!!) claimed to be.

She's doing nothing to salvage the marriage. You should take that for what it is.

This I do 100% agree with. She is sorry about a lot of things, and has been honest, but is not behaving in a way conducive so saving the marriage. The honesty doesn't make up for the lack of respect as I said in a previous post.

Your wife is conducting herself as a single woman.

Other than the flirting bit, the rest of this statement I agree with. My IC agreed. She has now had that taste of freedom and has checked out. The thing is on the surface she says that she wants to try and save the marriage but the actions don't match that...

The thing with your SO, that she doesn't feel affectionate with you or treats you respectful is simple, she treats you so less because you are not important to her anymore and she doesn't have to pretend anymore, the paint is off. Regardless being in love or not, being in a relationship is always a power dynamic, that said people will do things they normally won't. This includes treating people with respect and "love", because they want something in return or because the opposite person is important to them. You are not anymore. The power dynamic in your "relationship" has shifted.

100% and she has said as much (there is that honesty again!)

Also, even though it was originally supposed to be No Strings Attached sex, she ended up bonding with him and, I hate to tell you this, but she actually fell into some sort of limerance, love type bonding with him.

Yep, she has admitted this.

I think you will eventually rug sweep this whole thing, or go back and consent to her having sex with him again. You may say you won't, but I think you will. Just my opinion.

Nope. Things have steadily gone downhill in my head (even moreso). Even if she can find a way to be apologetic I am not sure I can recover my feelings for her now.

For things I haven't done:

Polygraph - how many people have actually done this? Seems pretty extreme and she has been 'honest' (I totally agree that this isn't enough)

No to closure meet - this seemed a gamble I admit but it did what was needed as far as ending them seeing each other

Total NC with her AP - I am keeping an eye on this one. I think our relationship is doomed either way so this kind of helps with my reasoning if she can't help from responding to him. As I said previously how does anyone actually stop a human (him) contacting another? They said they wouldn't contact each other so how can I control this further?

No to pick me dance- like vacations, Going out with her etc etc - holiday was booked for a year, I wasn't missing that. It did a good job of making things worse between us and...

Enforcing 180 - making me enforce this further. I am pretty much done now.

Regarding the flirting, I have no moral issues per se in the way you describe it as normal cultural currency in your milieu (this from someone who doesn’t know how to nor see when it’s being done with her btw so am no expert!), except you previously seemed to suggest it was an issue for you, so seem to be flip-flopping on the matter. But my main point in commenting is that you are giving your WW far too much commentary for someone who says they are doing the 180. Can’t you see she seems to (from the info you give us) be taking any comments (re how she treats you) like an adolescent would when a parent accuses them of treating the house like a hotel. Water off…

That’s not boundaries. Instead, to a foggy WS, it’s whining. And ineffective. She isn’t remorseful and she isn’t listening. She doesn’t sound even interested.

Everybody’s interpretation of the 180 is different. I’m talking rather more hardline 180 than you seem to be doing as you are trying to keep communication open (like one might in R) and giving her rent free access to your thoughts and head.

Really try not to do this, for your own sense of well-being. No more books, reaching out, trying to evangelise & change her. The 180 is about looking at you, not her in such a focused way.

But you remain very focused on her. Something to think about in IC.

I thought I was clear enough on the flirting, if she wasn't treating me like shit it would be OK. It is the treating me like shit that made it uncomfortable. And yes, (as always) I agree with the rest of what you said. I admit that I wasn't in a mindspace to 180 properly yet, I was hoping that the holiday would see some kind of remorse and the return of some affection. The way I was treated has seen me return not even caring. I have made some calls today to find out how much I can afford re: mortgages etc and honestly don't care what attention she gives me. It might seem a sudden shift and I know there will be more ups and downs to come but at this point that is genuinely where my brain is.

posts: 147   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2023   ·   location: UK
id 8790691
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 5:15 PM on Friday, May 12th, 2023

There are many BS here(myself included) he went the poly route. They're extremely common.

How do you stop him from contacting her? She blocks him on all SM, and messaging apps. She could also change her number. But, those are only things she will do if she wants to never hear from him again.

And..sorry..you knew it was coming..you tell his wife. The majority of the time, the WH throws the OW under the bus, and is so busy trying to save his marriage, he won't screw up any further by contacting the OW. That's one of the reasons we tell BS that telling the OBS is one of the best things they can do if they want R. Also, in your case, he made it clear he wasn't leaving his wife for yours. So..there. That's how you ensure he won't contact your wife again.

I will be everywhere you look,but nowhere to be found. And that will be my revenge.

posts: 6340   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8790696
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yellowledbetter ( member #70518) posted at 5:36 PM on Friday, May 12th, 2023

Hellfire said - "And..sorry..you knew it was coming..you tell his wife. The majority of the time, the WH throws the OW under the bus, and is so busy trying to save his marriage, he won't screw up any further by contacting the OW. That's one of the reasons we tell BS that telling the OBS is one of the best things they can do if they want R. Also, in your case, he made it clear he wasn't leaving his wife for yours. So..there. That's how you ensure he won't contact your wife again."

THIS! This is your last ditch effort to save your marriage. We all cannot stress this enough!!! Why are you not listening? With all the excuses you both come up with, this is just how it’s going to be from here on out, is it? Oh but right, doing it for the kids.

Bullshit it’s for the kids. It’s selfish behaviour on your part and your cheating wife.

Do the right thing. Being a good human is simple, but it takes a lot of effort to be a doormat and co-conspirator to ruining another family and taking your kids down with you all.

One day you’ll wake up and it’s going to be too late.

[This message edited by yellowledbetter at 5:39 PM, Friday, May 12th]

Me: BW 52, WH 55, LTA, AP 20 yrs younger. Married 33 yrs, together for 36
3 adult children
DDay Dec19/2018
Attempting Reconciliation….still.

~where there is deep grief, there was great love.

posts: 142   ·   registered: May. 9th, 2019   ·   location: Canada
id 8790698
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crazyblindsided ( member #35215) posted at 6:46 PM on Friday, May 12th, 2023

As I said previously how does anyone actually stop a human (him) contacting another? They said they wouldn't contact each other so how can I control this further?

The quickest way to end the A or at least make things extremely difficult for your WS, is to tell the OBS. It should be the first thing one does after the discovery of an A. If that doesn't work you 180 and D.

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 6:48 PM, Friday, May 12th]

fBS/fWS(me):50 Mad-hattered after DD (2008)
XWS:53 Serial Cheater, Diagnosed NPD
DD(20) DS(17)
XWS cheated the entire M spanning 19 years
Discovered D-Days 2006,2008,2012, False R 2014
Divorcing

posts: 8694   ·   registered: Apr. 2nd, 2012   ·   location: California
id 8790700
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de.va.sta.ted ( member #22922) posted at 8:17 PM on Friday, May 12th, 2023

Ozzy,

I just read through some of the updates and I’m wondering why your wife shared that she isn’t attracted to you (honest and mean) with your mutual friends while on vacation but not that she was sleeping with someone else?

I guess she is less honest when it makes her look bad.

Glad you are getting ready to move on.

Probably better to speak to a lawyer before looking at mortgage rates.

Things are always better when you start making a plan to move yourself forward.

[This message edited by de.va.sta.ted at 8:18 PM, Friday, May 12th]

Me: BW Him: WH D-Day 1: February 2009 D-Day 2: April 2018 Divorced!

posts: 1049   ·   registered: Feb. 19th, 2009
id 8790710
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Charity411 ( member #41033) posted at 8:35 PM on Friday, May 12th, 2023

I've followed your thread, and many people have given you great advice. We all make suggestions based on our own experience, and every situation is somewhat different. It's your life, family and marriage and it's your right to decide how to respond. What I've noticed is your motivation for what you accept or reject.

You want her. You don't want him to have her. I realized it completely when you asked if showing her this thread as a last ditch effort would be a good thing to do. You wondered if she would realize the hurt she was causing you. It can't be because of the kids because they don't know, so they aren't hurt. There could be no purpose in it but a "last ditch" effort to win her back.

I know it hurts, but she's made it clear she doesn't want you. The kids won't change that ( since they didn't enter her thought process when she chose to cheat), showing this thread won't change that, and it's unlikely that him getting angry at her if you tell the OBS will change that. There are things that are simply not in our control no matter how much you study it, plan around it or wish it to be so. We can't change how someone feels about us.

As an example, I'm in the opposite of your situation. I have been single for a long time, and I have no desire to have a romantic relationship at this point. A boyfriend from 20 years looked me up, and for about 8 months we would occasionally have lunch together, dutch treat. I considered him to be a friend, even though he abruptly dumped me 22 years ago. On Christmas night at 10:30 pm he asked if he could come over by Facebook messenger. I figured he was lonely on Christmas night and said sure because I was sitting on my porch watching an extremely glittery snowfall. He came over quite drunk and cried on my porch about our break up and stayed until 2am. He asked me to go on vacation with him. I said no and reiterated the I didn't want a relationship with him. Only friendship.

He has since continually tried to get me to go down that path, including offering to pay for the trip, and I said no. He asked again if I had renewed my passport yet. He simply will not hear what I have been plainly telling him. I am never going to want a relationship with this man or any other. These repeated attempts have the exact opposite effect. I am now completely avoiding him.

This is what I see going on with you and your wife. If you believe, as you insist, that she is so honest, then believe her when she says she doesn't want you. You are not helping your kids by exposing them to this lopsided dynamic. Yeah, it sucks to divide your time with your kids up. I had to do that when my EXH left me for the OW. But I lived, and life is truly good, which is why I'm happy alone. I avoid all this drama.

posts: 1724   ·   registered: Oct. 18th, 2013   ·   location: Illinois
id 8790711
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Edie ( member #26133) posted at 8:56 PM on Saturday, May 13th, 2023

She seems angry, and cruel. I’m sorry.

Maybe a long walk in the Hindu Kush would do it?
BW (me) 52
FWS 55
Together 29 years; 2 kids 15 & 12
Dday Dec 08 (confessed) R'd.

posts: 6632   ·   registered: Nov. 9th, 2009   ·   location: Europe
id 8790812
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Hurthalo ( member #41782) posted at 10:57 AM on Sunday, May 14th, 2023

I told her again that seeing her like that was a complete tease and desperately cruel. She seemed to listen, but wasn't apologetic.

And that my friend, is a neat summation of this entire debacle regarding your wife. She basically held you over a barrel demanding that she got to have an affair with AP, she predictably got feelings for him, and now blames you for blowing it all up. Her flirting with married friends is her petulant way of trying to take it out on you.

On the small chance she does want to work on the marriage, your insurance policy for her going NC with AP is telling OBS. But neither her working on the marriage or you telling the OBS seems likely anyway.

I'm sorry it has gone this way, you truly don't deserve it. I hope you are holding up regardless mate. Don't be afraid to take time for you.

posts: 301   ·   registered: Dec. 26th, 2013   ·   location: Australia
id 8790841
Topic is Sleeping.
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