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jb3199 ( member #27673) posted at 12:07 PM on Thursday, March 30th, 2023

MM,

One of the simplest messages that I always try to deliver to any newly betrayed, is to deal with the person standing in front of you TODAY. Yes, the two of you have a long history. Yes, the two of you have a family that should be the main priority. And yes, you love her.

But, standing back and looking at you wife, right now, is THIS the person that you want to spend your life with? The one who is distant, uninterested, and morally compromised? Because this is who she is. For all you know, this can be her new mindset for the rest of her life. You simply don't know. So why treat this person, today, the same as the one from 5 years ago? This is what I try to get people to understand. This 'new' person has not earned, nor given, the respect, dedication, affection, or care that the 'old' one gave. But make no mistake---right now, this woman is the real her....just as the old woman was the old her. Treat this current person in the way that they deserve to be treated. Treat them with the same respect that you would treat a stranger, or acquaintance, who exhibits these traits.

If the old wife comes back, then she can start to be treated more like that preferred version. That person earned it.

BH-50s
WW-50s
2 boys
Married over 30yrs.

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary PuckettD-Day(s): EnoughAccepting that I can/may end this marriage 7/2/14

posts: 4346   ·   registered: Feb. 21st, 2010   ·   location: northeast
id 8784797
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fareast ( Moderator #61555) posted at 12:49 PM on Thursday, March 30th, 2023

It appears like currently your WW is doing everything she can to avoid facing the consequences for her actions. If she just puts her fingers in her ears and hums loudly she can make it all go away. She is hostile and defensive as she desperately doesn’t want to face the guilt and shame. The 180 will help you. You can’t reason with her or nice her back. Trying to do so just pushes her away. Always value yourself. Be there for your children and take care of you. You need to heal. Right now your WW is not remorseful and is giving you nothing to work with. Keep moving forward. Good luck.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 12:50 PM, Thursday, March 30th]

Never bother with things in your rearview mirror. Your best days are on the road in front of you.

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Butforthegrace ( member #63264) posted at 1:17 PM on Thursday, March 30th, 2023

Hello Mr. Max: I'm very sorry you find yourself here, but please know that in this place, you are among brothers. Most of us have endured some version of the Hell you are now living. We are here out of a place of kindness, and our goal is to try to help you avoid making the mistakes that we made and wish, in hindsight, we had avoided.

To that end, I hope you realize that you have already made a series of beginner errors. They are understandable and totally human, the kinds of errors many of us made. Mainly, your thread is a story line of a hapless husband who is attempting discussions with a WW under the assumption that she will engage with you in good faith, as a co-equal partner.

The cruelest lesson a newly minted BH must learn -- but you MUST absorb this -- is that the woman who now occupies the meatspace that was formerly occupied by your wife, she is NOT the woman you married. She is an alien invader. An avatar. Your former wife has allowed herself to be infused with a foreign mindset and controlled by this mindset. The woman next to you in your marriage: (a) regards you as an adversary, and (b) has become accustomed to lying to you, as a normal part of her discourse with you.

You would be best served by learning to view her as an adversary, and by assuming that most of what she tells you now about the cheating is a fabrication. If I can impress any one thing on you, this is it. Any strategizing you might do now, I guarantee she is three steps ahead of you. Therefore, engaging with her, attempting to reason, all of that is futile.

The goal here at SI is to get you out of infidelity. Where your WW is actively involved in cheating, your only choice is to get yourself a boat, point it away from infidelity, and row as hard and as fast as you can.

If your actual wife, the one buried somewhere deep inside beneath the outer layers of the cheating alien, has a strong enough desire to be with you and preserve your marriage, she will figure out a way to catch up with you and join you. If she doesn't do that, your marriage never had a chance and the sooner you get out, the better you will be.

To be frank, so far, everything you have described about your cheating wife suggests that there is currently no momentum toward reconciliation, at all. Zero. Please do not puff the hopium pipe. Hopium is the drug most abused by a newly minted BH. Every time she smiles with a hint of kindness, we take a puff. Avoid it. Her refusal to acknowledge the sheer monstrosity of what she has chosen to become. Her refusal to acknowledge the manner in which she has shat upon another wife's family. Her push-back against limits and conditions. Her waffling on whether she would do it again.

Mostly, though, her use of the "M-word": "Mistake." Cheating is not a mistake. A mistake is using baking soda instead of baking powder, or leaving your keys in your car in a public parking lot. Cheating is a choice. An intentional choice. Or, in the case of long-term repeat cheating like your wife's, thousands of individual choices, and thousands of lies by commission and omission, told to you, on purpose, with the specific intent of enabling her to carry on sexually with another man. She will give you some psychobabble about her childhood or such, maybe she will blather about how the sex was transactional to get validation, it's all BS. Bottom line: cheaters cheat because they want to cheat. She wants the thrill of illicit hotel sex with another man. Therefore, she decided that it is worth risking your emotional health and her intact marriage to get it. She is also risking your physical health. It's certain her sex with the AP was unprotected. I'd reckon she has also had unprotected sex with you. She could have transmitted a deadly STD to you (or, frankly, one of your children via kissing). One or both of them has spent family money paying for the hotel -- for adulterous sex. Let that sink in. They have forced unwitting spouses to foot the bill for their sex. All of those things have been the product of your wife's conscious intentional choice. Affair over family. Period, bottom line. Do you really wish to remain married to a person who would make that choice? Can you even like or respect such a person, never mind love her?

As a final matter, know this: your family will not be "destroyed" by this. You will always have your family. The only difference will be that the physical locus of the family may in the future be spread among two separate homes. But as long as you love your children, they will always know you as their daddy. Millions of children grow up with divorced parents and live to become healthy, functioning adults. The best thing you can do for your children is to model what a functioning, happy, productive life looks like.

One small but specific point in closing. Reach out to the OBW (the AP's wife) and tell her about the affair. It's the morally right thing to do. If she doesn't already know about it, she will likely thank you for telling her. It's quite possible she could be an ally in ferreting out the truth. Also, as an ancillary matter, exposure kills infidelity like turning on the lights scatters cockroaches. Some have found that this sort of cathartic exposure wakes up the actual spouse cowering inside the shell of the cheater and revivifies that person, gives the marriage a new breath of life.

When you do it, do NOT do it over FB Messenger, text, or email. The AP will be on high alert for this and will likely intercept your communication. You have to communicate directly. Find her on LinkedIn and phone her at work, or phone her at home when you know the AP is not home. Something like that.

And do NOT tell your WW in advance that you plan to do this. Good luck.

By the way, one other ancillary point:

You might say the past does not matter, and I should leave her NOW, but I’m deeply sorry about the potential death of 15yrs marriage and trying everything to desperately save it.

I would strongly urge you to Google and read about the Sunk Cost Fallacy

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 3:39 PM, Thursday, March 30th]

"The wicked man flees when no one chases."

posts: 4179   ·   registered: Mar. 31st, 2018   ·   location: Midwest
id 8784803
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straightup ( member #78778) posted at 1:36 PM on Thursday, March 30th, 2023

Her behaviour seems a little off, even for an active Wayward.

This assumes this is new behaviour in your long relationship, and she didn’t show an out of kilter selfish streak in the past.

Would she go for a medical exam, do a full blood screen, scans? Add a psychiatric consult if she can?

This isn’t for psych treatment per se but to exclude a general medical condition as a contributing cause here. Tumors, hypothyroidism, simple depression etc.

It’s a long shot, and probably incorrect (most likely its just cheating).

I don’t suggest it as a get out of jail card either, even if tests show something out of whack.

In my wife’s case perimenopause added to other issues we had managed up to that point. I suggested the diagnosis because I had some female friends at that stage. Tests confirmed it. I think it was only 10% of the puzzle but it helped to stop her interpreting these physical symptoms as existential epiphany and projecting it on me.

[This message edited by straightup at 1:38 PM, Thursday, March 30th]

If you are honest and sincere people may deceive you. Be honest and sincere anyway.
What you spend years creating, others could destroy overnight. Create anyway.
Mother Teresa

posts: 342   ·   registered: May. 11th, 2021   ·   location: Australia
id 8784805
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lrpprl ( member #80538) posted at 1:41 PM on Thursday, March 30th, 2023

I consider Butforthegrace to be the most intelligent and insightful poster on this website. Please, please carefully consider everything he has put forth for you. His post encapsulates years and thousands of members experiences.

Mad Max, I am so, so sorry you are having to go through this. Betrayal is trauma, pure and simple. As someone who was recently traumatized your thoughts are all over the place because they are driven by your emotions. A wise man once said, "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he". Eventually your thoughts will become clearer and you will begin to see your wife as she truly is at this point in time... not who you want her to be... not who you thought she was. You will see her as a really entitled, selfish person. You will wonder how you did not see all this before. You will wonder how she ever deserved your love. When you get to that place you will see that you deserve someone so much better.

I wish you Godspeed on that journey.

[This message edited by lrpprl at 1:42 PM, Thursday, March 30th]

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bob7777 ( member #79867) posted at 2:23 PM on Thursday, March 30th, 2023

To be precise she did not say more than 2-3 sentences in the entire 20 minutes ‘conversation’.


I'm sorry, but her reaction should tell you all. She's not in it. She's no remorse, she's just behaving tactical for herself. Trying to deflect and get through it. I wouldn't be puzzled if she was still in contact with AP. My guess is, the affair is still ongoing.

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Confused282 ( member #79680) posted at 3:00 PM on Thursday, March 30th, 2023

You have gotten some great advise.

I just want to say that you are a smart man and you handled things well initially but you have started to backslide a little.

Your gut was right. Your gut is still right. You know what’s going on.

You need to tell that man’s wife. If I could jump through the screen and try to get through to you how important it is.

It is not optional.

Not just for the moral good the wife becomes another watcher on the other side of the wall at a minimum .

Potentially she could take care of a lot of the heavy lifting and really lay the hammer down on him from her end.

It’s one of the quickest ways to ensure the true end of the affair.

Also a little revenge is perfectly ok.

Also if she is still working there the affair is continuing. You may have put a hold on sex (who knows for sure) but it’s guaranteed they are still talking.

As long as they still communicate in anyway the affair is continuing.

The other posters are giving you some real good advice so I won’t rehash but I just wanted to say you have been right so far.

Don’t let her feed you bullshit.

You have not been wrong yet. No reason to think you are wrong moving forward.

Trust your gut.

I’m so sorry. You did not deserve this.

posts: 169   ·   registered: Dec. 16th, 2021   ·   location: USA
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Bigger ( Attaché #8354) posted at 3:33 PM on Thursday, March 30th, 2023

You might say the past does not matter, and I should leave her NOW, but I’m deeply sorry about the potential death of 15yrs marriage and trying everything to desperately save it.

MM – When I read the advice offered, I see a lot more content telling you that certain actions could save the marriage than the voices telling you to leave her. The big questions IMHO are what you are trying to save, and if it is salvageable.

It’s an ongoing struggle on this site – there are those that are of the opinion that EXTREMELY few if any relationship can survive infidelity and that the BS should always get rid of the WS, and there are those that say a marriage can reconcile. I’m not denying that it’s my belief that marriages CAN reconcile, but I realize that it’s immense work and requires the willing participation of BOTH.

The simple fact this site was founded by a couple that experienced infidelity but reconciled should be evidence enough that reconciliation is possible. Just like the evidence that I personally terminated my relationship is evidence that reconciliation isn’t the only or even the best path in all cases. To me R or D isn’t the real issue – the issue is that in a reasonable time your life isn’t dominated and controlled by infidelity.

Right now – you don’t have the willing participation of your wife.

She wants to remain married – but not in a marriage as you would define it.

The first item in order IMHO is to get to the bottom of why and if she does want to remain married. IMHO that needs to be because she WANTS you. Not that she settles for you, or cant split the family or whatever. She WANTS to be MARRIED to YOU.

I would suggest you accept some "facts" (as far as facts go in regards to relationships…)

Fact 1 is that you are possibly holding on to a dying corpse, that no matter how much YOU are about the potential death then MAYBE the marriage is headed that way or already pushing the daisies. Be very aware of that you might be like the guy in Psycho who held on to the corpse of his dead mom. I am not saying it is dead – but that it might be dead or that the marriage MIGHT die.

I understand and applaud your efforts to revive the marriage. This is like CPR where you try to bring life back for as long as you can, but even with CPR there comes a time where a person is declared dead.

I have used this comparison before: Imagine you need to go get life-or-death treatment for some illness. The only way to get to the treatment is by train, and the schedule says the next train is a week from now. The illness in infidelity, the life-or-death is if your marriage can survive. You let your wife know and tell her that you can preorder tickets online. She either tells you she isn’t going or doesn’t commit, yet you reserve 2 tickets. The whole week you mention the trip, and she doesn’t respond too much. The day before you let her know that you are leaving at 10:00 tomorrow and again ask if shes coming too. Next day she might drive you to the station. You could tell her that you packed a bag for her too, yet she doesn’t commit. You go and pay for both tickets and ask her to follow you to the platform and the train and she does. At the train you again ask her to board and she doesn’t. Where you stand in the train you again let her know it’s not too late yet she stands still. When the train pulls out you might call that she can still jump on board… Yet if she doesn’t YOU are still leaving. YOU are getting infidelity dealt with.

It's this attitude you should try to assume: You can only control you. You can pace yourself, but each day and every week you need to be further out of infidelity. It’s your wife’s job to either follow or not, but if she doesn’t eventually you will reach a place where she’s left behind.

Fact 2 is that the infidelity needs to be dealt with. If you rug-sweep this issue it will rise again in some evil form. It can be a repeat affair (with this man or a new one, because the reasons she gave herself for doing this wont be dealt with), it can be remorse or anger or regret, it can be a constant sense of distrust… It is IMHO impossible to have a good marriage if this isn’t dealt with.

I encourage you to look at our suggestions to tell the other man’s wife. NOTHING you can do will help your marriage more than that. This is not revenge, but pure and simple effective way to possibly save your marriage.

I said you weren’t unique… well… if you do the above your wife will tell you the marriage is over, that you have wrecked two families and all that. Don’t listen. Don’t participate in the drama. Just let the OMW know and do it the way I suggested.

What is their work-relationship? Does the OM interact with your wife on a daily basis? Her manager? Coworker? How can she assure you they aren’t meeting?

How did they finance their stays in the hotel?

We are going to advocate exposing the affair far and wide. Her colleagues already know – no matter how careful they were or how discreet then the rumor-mill already knows that something was going on. Exposure isn’t done by screaming "MY WIFE SCREWS AROUND". It’s not revenge or done to cause pain. Exposure is done by using statements like "My wife and OM are having an affair. This is understandably damaging our marriage and my family. I think you deserve to know and I would appreciate any input you could have to make my wife do the right thing". This is shared with family, friends… anyone that can impact what might be going on.

These steps are all based on possibly creating a situation where your marriage might be salvageable. To return to the CPR, illness and dead corpse analogies: When a person is sapped using those electrical paddles so popular in medical TV shows they definitely cause pain to the person being resuscitated and even burn-marks. Yet nobody that has survived a cardiac arrest has complained. Sometimes pain is needed to reach further gain.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:34 PM, Thursday, March 30th]

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

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Justsomeguy ( member #65583) posted at 3:40 PM on Thursday, March 30th, 2023

Hey OP,just wanted to chime in.youve been getting good advice, but I'm sure, if your anything like most BSs at this point, you are feeling completely overwhelmed. That is completely normal. You are being faced with acwhole new set of relationship challenges and realities you never sign on for. The rug has been pulled out from under you and this makes you question even that safest assumptions you had about life, the universe, and everything.

One of thectoughest things for me was the grief and sadness. How could a woman that I would've gladly taken a bullet for, do this to me? Had I been that stupid? Blind? Naive? The reality was, those very good qualities I had as a H were what she used to leverage against me in order to conduct her A. But still, the sadness was palpable. I felt like I could reach out and touch it, like a thickness in the air around me.

I tried R for about 6 months. It was agony.i would try to make it through the day, only to go to sleep ever night, wake up in the morning, and for a brief second, forget the hell my life had become. Then it would all come back to me and my heart would break again. I described this as my "make it til" phase. Realizing i did not have the strength to get through an entire day, I picked strategic way points and aimed for those: start work, morning break, lunch, etc. It was a little like the protagonist in Hacksaw Ridge...God,give me the strength to make it just three more hours.

I did a lot wrong during the early stages of R as I had not found this site. After I started reading here, I began to put myself first. I became selfish, but in a good way. My whole M, I had always been the last item in the list, even after the dog. Now I demanded my rightful place at the top. I took time to exercise, bought the clothes I liked, went out when I wanted to. All of this really helped.

As I began to act more "manly" my WW started to fi d me more desirable. The irony is that I found her even less desirable, if that could be possible. I compared her, the actual woman, to what I felt I rightfully was owed, and she fell short in every category. She was just not good enough for me anymore. I finally pulled the plug after 6+ months of R, and went to bed. It was the best sleep I had since Dday1&2. Yes I grieved, but I felt peace. Even now, 5.5 years later, I feel a great sense of peace every day. It has become my word.

Things will get better, but only if you chose to make them better. This stage sucks, but it is only a stage. It reminds me of that movie, The longest Day, I think, where the OC says to the soldiers on the Dday beach..."There's are only two types of men on this beach, those who are dead, and those who are going to die. Let's move forward!" You need to find a way forward, off your beach.

I'm an oulier in my positions.

Me:55 STBXWW:55 DD#1: false confession of EA Dec. 2016. False R for a year.DD#2: confessed to year long PA Dec. 2 2017 (was about to be outed)Called it off and filed. Denied having an affair in court papers.

Divorced 20

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id 8784828
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Blackbird25 ( member #82766) posted at 3:41 PM on Thursday, March 30th, 2023

jb3199 took the words right out of my mouth:

deal with the person standing in front of you TODAY


This right here ^^

She knows that what she's doing is morally wrong - the way you posed the question - including the other victims of this, the OBS, their children and her response to that is very very telling. She doesn't want to think that it's morally wrong because she already knows it is! It's obscene that your line of questioning is offending her. THIS WHOLE AFFAIR IS OFFENSIVE. But again - it's just another way for her to deflect back to you, make you think that you're out of line to dare to question her motives, her moral compass, her ability to feel empathy to other people that are potentially being hurt in all of this. And there's the children. ALL of the kids. Your children and the AP children. Even a blind person can see that all these kids will not escape unscathed. That's the real travesty IMO - the damage and the harm done to the kids of parents in the fog of an affair destroying and breaking up the family. I hope that you can start doing the 180 - soft 180 if it has to be. Step back and take care of yourself AND your children. If you can find out who the AP is - ask around, and then go tell his wife! I'm also of the opinion that the other betrayed spouse needs to know. I WISH people in my life would have told me right away when my H was having his affair - I was betrayed not only by him. but also family members who chose to keep his secret, facilitated the affair and who helped by deceiving and lying to me about what was going on. I no longer trust those people and have chosen to remove them from my life. So speaking as a betrayed wife, absolutely yes, someone please tell her. At least it will give the OBS the opportunity to have the truth in front of her and she can make her own decisions about the future of her own marriage. As far as your own marriage is concerned, as long as your wife works for that company, she's still going to have contact with her AP and if I had to guess, the A has gone underground. They will do everything in their power now to conceal it even more than before. Just like they say, cheaters lie and then they lie some more. The depths to their lying is astounding. Sometimes I'd look at my WH and wonder, this guy actually believes this shit. Focus on you, focus on your children - the time and energy you would spend on trying to "convince" her to see what she's doing or convince her that what she has at home is amazing, that you're amazing, don't do the pick me dance. It won't work - she's too deep in the weeds to see any of that and it may just lead to more resentment towards you because you're getting in her way - you're stifling her ability to go do her thing. Tell the OBS, 180 and grey rock. I wish you well!
BB

Me: BS Him: WH, Married 1996
DDay#1: 5/2012 (EA 3 mos, PA 1 month)
DDay#2: 12/26/22 (EA, 1 wk)
Reconciling and doing well.

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 madmax76 (original poster new member #83140) posted at 8:03 PM on Friday, March 31st, 2023

Update:

Not much progress happened, seems like my WS is really applying her own version of 180 at home. Does not initiate communication, is always in the other room, always on her phone, says good morning and sometimes good night. Not discussing what happened during the day, only speaks if something is super important. Of course no sign or gestures to ease my pain or opening a discussion to lower my stress. I’m not in her priority list at all. Stone-walled and avoiding..

I feel she is mad at me. She is hostile. I don’t get why. Because I caught her affair? Outsmarted her? I feel like she does not give a damn about my injuries and only cares about her ‘problem’ now.

Is this behavior because home now is a very unpleasant place? is she sad and low, because her AP is with his family at weekends and the A is still going on in some form, and Monday is too far away? Or is it just because her A was debunked and is this some kind of a mourning process?

It is a very bizarre situation… imagine if she is sad because she thinks of her AP and suffers here at home (with me), then I think there is no point to think about R…

Or did she realise she is in a shitty situation, where her A was debunked and now she cannot decide if it were worth to go D and be a single mom and mistress of a married guy who might never be with her the way she wants it. And to stay in a marriage (just for the kids) is a better (though a bit unpleasant) option than to be a single mom with 3 kids... One thing is sure, I don’t want to live in a marriage where the heart of my wife is somewhere else. I want to be in a marriage where my wife respects me, loves me and trusts me. Anything less is just a waste of time for me.

PS: I separated our finances now and contacted lawyer about my options.

[This message edited by madmax76 at 8:32 PM, Friday, March 31st]

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Butforthegrace ( member #63264) posted at 8:25 PM on Friday, March 31st, 2023

Hell Mad

I fully understand the dynamics that would lead you to wonder about what is going on in your WW’s mind. However, I would gently suggest that line of thinking isn’t helpful to you at present.

Clearly, your WW is still invested at some emotional level in stuff that is not you. It is said here that you cannot control your WW, nor can you control the outcome. You can only control you.

The marriage you have right now, today, in your home – is that a marriage you wish to be in? I assume the answer is "no". Therefore, take steps to leave it. You can communicate to your spouse that you are leaving it, and why, but it is not helpful to communicate things like "if you did X, I would consider doing Y, but if you do Z, then I’m done." I call these "if/then gambits". They never work. All that happens is that the BH keeps nudging the line along, gradually dying the death of a thousand cuts.

It is also said here: "When your WW shows you who she really is, believe her." My suggestion: now that she has shown you who she really is, search your heart and consider whether you wish to be married to this precise person. If not, take steps to get out of infidelity.

Oh, and by the way, tell the OBW. Do it today. It's the right thing to do, and it will probably help your situation more than you know.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 8:26 PM, Friday, March 31st]

"The wicked man flees when no one chases."

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fareast ( Moderator #61555) posted at 9:19 PM on Friday, March 31st, 2023

Madmax76:

You are doing well by separating finances and contacting an attorney. Your expectations for your M are spot on. Always value yourself. You have suffered a real trauma and your life as you knew it has been exploded. I would not spend time worrying about your WW’s state of mind. I would focus on your own healing. If you have access to IC in Hungary it may help to pursue it. Be there for your children and help them cope as well. It’s normal to be on an emotional rollercoaster. Be patient with yourself. Keep implementing the 180. Sending strength. Get out and exercise and be active. Good luck.

Never bother with things in your rearview mirror. Your best days are on the road in front of you.

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Confused282 ( member #79680) posted at 9:40 PM on Friday, March 31st, 2023

Hi Max,

You will drive yourself crazy trying to figure everything that’s going on in her mind right now.

She is not in a logical place. She is in a fog.

The problem with the fog is she is not just going to wake up without a real kick in the ass.

All of your thoughts are correct all at once.

She does miss the affair. 16 years at home new job for 6 months and intense sexual affair.

It was probably very intense for her and you blew her fantasy up. But not nearly enough yet.

Also she probably has a lot of shame as well. There are going to be a lot of consequences for her selfish actions.

In some ways it would be easier to just divorce than to face them.

I think you should have her go stay with family members if you can. It needs to be people friendly to the marriage or at least friendly to your children.

She needs a taste of what life is going to look like.

But she cannot go stay at a hotel or random friends house.

Cheaters only want separation to continue their affairs.

A book about women’s infidelity had a great line in it. The therapist was talking to a woman who separated to figure out what she wanted. The therapist said to her….

"So what have you learned this last month, that illicit sex with a new man is intoxicating " it stunned the client. Uhhh yea I guess.

Family or your serve divorce papers immediately.

It’s s tough situation you’re in I’m so sorry.

The others will have better advice I just want to say did you find that man’s wife?

That is not optional. At all.

Sell the baseball card collection, hit up family for money, take out a loan. Hire a Private investigator to find her and tell her if you have to.

It is so important. You would be further along by now if you had.

It will rock their worlds from the other side. She may take care of so much for you.

Your wife is still in another room on her phone. That is some bullshit.

To answer one question yes she is still in an affair. Are they having sex? I don’t know.

Real easy to leave her phone behind and hop in his car and go to a different hotel.

But while she is still working there she is still 100% talking to him. That’s means the affair has not stopped. 100%

No contact is exactly what it means. No talking, no eye contact, no breathing the same air. Ever again until she is dead and in the ground.

Even a very pro reconciliation dr Joe Beam that a lot of people here would have problems with said while describing no contact "not even if they are in the hospital"

That’s how deep no contact goes.

There has been a lot of great advice on here that I cannot add or do better. I would re read them.

Expect the leave the house thing. You’re in a different country but here in the US that’s a real bad idea. You can take a night but stay in the house.

Just wanted to reiterate NO CONTACT. At all ever again. Bye bye job.

And find that man’s wife immediately. After lawyer the second stop should have been maybe a quick cheeseburger then Straight to wife’s house to talk her.

I still think you are really smart and you have a good head. I know this is so tough. Not trying to insult you in anyway.

Trying to stress how unbelievably important it is to tell that man’s wife. That’s the next thing you need to work on.

I’m so sorry

posts: 169   ·   registered: Dec. 16th, 2021   ·   location: USA
id 8785199
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straightup ( member #78778) posted at 10:20 PM on Friday, March 31st, 2023

I take no contact to mean, no contact forever, even if reconciliation fails, even if reconciliation succeeds and she’s eventually widowed. It’s a respect for me and integrity for her thing.

If you are honest and sincere people may deceive you. Be honest and sincere anyway.
What you spend years creating, others could destroy overnight. Create anyway.
Mother Teresa

posts: 342   ·   registered: May. 11th, 2021   ·   location: Australia
id 8785207
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OrdinaryDude ( member #55676) posted at 6:02 AM on Monday, April 3rd, 2023

Definitely get started with the lawyer, stop interacting with her at all other than the basic logistics for the kids and home.

Also don’t assume she will be a single mom with three kids, you are their primary care giver and this should remain the same going forward as with you working from home and providing their care then she may be asked to leave the home and provide child support…individual circumstances apply obviously, but do not leave, and do not stop caring for your children the way you have been.
If this can be maintained for now and thru most of the process, I would also move to have her getting the kids up to 50% if possible so as to not absolve her of her parental duties completely.

Keep your finances separate and keep the bills paid with records for your lawyer.

Let her come and go as she pleases with no issue, and if she deviates from her work routine even slightly then get a PI if possible and learn who she is with for later use, do not let it be known that you might know who he is, and do not contact her work, at least until the settlement is done and signed.

Personally, after a settlement is done I would go thermonuclear on her ass.

Yes I am pessimistic, and with reason as waywards very rarely learn and become worthy spouses again. It can happen, yes, but is it worth trying to live with it thru the process?
I argue that it is not from my experiences.

Also the "losing the years invested" is what’s called sunk cost fallacy, look it up and learn about it.

Good luck to you man.

I was young and dumb and stayed with a cheater.

posts: 3427   ·   registered: Oct. 19th, 2016   ·   location: U.S.
id 8785473
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Organic2003 ( member #69811) posted at 8:35 AM on Monday, April 3rd, 2023

Max

You are correct she is doing the 180 on you! She is intentionally withdrawing, knowing it is hurting you.

If you want to get her to move off the fence as she is making plans with AP. Tell the OBS now! You will see her truth shortly after the AP calls her.

Max I hope the best for you and your family.

So sorry for your pain.

Organic

There is opportunity in EVERYTHING

posts: 187   ·   registered: Feb. 19th, 2019
id 8785475
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 madmax76 (original poster new member #83140) posted at 8:51 AM on Monday, April 3rd, 2023

Update:

First off, thank you for all your thoughts and advises that really helped me to at least start to navigate

in these difficult and emotionally stressful times. Sadly, I am totally new in this area and made many-many mistakes,

because I was very naive towards my WS and did not understand the true nature of the cheaters / cheating.

I realized I had a big disadvantage in this battle; I'm honest by nature, play by the rules,

I have a no bullshit, 'what you see is what you get' attitude and above all I have empathy to even my WS.. yes, that is true.

I also live by my moral standards, like transparency and no lying. On the other hand, I feel my WS does not tend play

by the rules necessarily currently. I can see in her eyes, she is not telling 100% of the truth, selects / distorts information as

she sees fit to her interests and current situation. By the way, the only thing that sparks any attention in her is when we discuss some

issues that affects her in any way (like financial matters). Those topics that affects ME, she does not seem to care.

And this bothers me a lot... Because of her attitude now we cannot have an open communication which could be the basis of any reconciliation.

Here is the current situation:

I can see melancholy and sadness in her, I'm absolutely sure that it is not because of me... but she might think of the AP and the A.. or the loss of it.

THIS kills me.

She still shows no emotions towards me, does not touch me or hug me, if I try anything, she pulls back.

On the weekend I told her that I might go to trauma expert who could help me to process all of this.

She replied: "Do so." Like that. "Do so." No questions afterwards, no hugging, no 'Oh let ME also help you to ease your pain..'. Nothing.

And then she returned typing on her laptop right away, like I told I would get some milk from the store. No more questions, just like : "Yeah, go, I support you. What else do you expect me to do?"

I think this tells a lot about her empathy and compassion and hurts me a LOT.

I feel I'm totally ALONE in this she does not seem to care and does not help me even a little bit.

I feel she does not even 'pretend' to show me remorse or any observable empathy.

Life goes on, she comes home in time, focuses on kids (not on me), sad, annoyed easily and goes to bed.

She also told me she needed time to process this / emotions and see what SHE (!) wanted. She clearly misses A and AP, even though

she told me she closed the affair. I noticed she sleeps with her company phone next to her. (not the private one!).

Of course, this also includes the possibility that maybe one day she just packs her things and leaves.

Should just sit here and wait for HER decision? While there is a possibility that A continues but with more carefully chosen ways.

[This message edited by madmax76 at 8:54 AM, Monday, April 3rd]

posts: 37   ·   registered: Mar. 28th, 2023   ·   location: Hungary
id 8785477
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RealityBlows ( member #41108) posted at 8:58 AM on Monday, April 3rd, 2023

You might say the past does not matter, and I should leave her NOW, but I’m deeply sorry about the potential death of 15yrs marriage and trying everything to desperately save it.

You can’t save it. You don’t have the power, the ability or the authority to save it. Only SHE can save it.

She’s deep in The Fog. I, personally, have ZERO tolerance for fogged out Waywards. Don’t treat them like they’re unwilling innocent victims, overcome by a menacing, mind altering fog, whom require rescue.

The best way to snap her out of The Fog is with a very sobering, bracing dose of cold hard reality.

Not begging. Not by appealing to her morality. Not by reminiscent visions of the good ole’ days. Not by love bombing. Even throwing the welfare of the kids in front of her will not break The Fog.

All that does is anger and disgusts her as you appear weak and pathetic. If you’re lucky, she might feel a bit sorry for you, but that’s it. Otherwise you just annoy and agitate her and she pulls away further.

SO, here’s what you CAN do. Let’s get down to brass tactics:

-The 180 (already mentioned numerous times).

-Notify the OBS (also already mentioned)

-Exposure of the affair (mentioned)

AND, if you’re getting no response…

-Service of Divorce papers.

OMG!! Not the D word!! That’s unthinkable! That’s an over reaction of The Nuclear Option!! (clutching pearls)

No. That’s absolute horseshit.

Service of divorce papers is not the end of the world, it’s not even the end of your marriage.

It’s the beginning of the end of the madness we call, The Fog. Stop the cycle of madness by refusing to participate in it.

Divorce in most states and countries (with very few exceptions AK, NV, SD) are a relatively slow methodical process that progresses by degrees and can be slowed, paused, paced and reversed as you desire.

Hell, you can even remarry with a prenup and an infidelity clause if you wish.

Service of divorce papers is not an irreversible nuclear option, but it sure has the bracing impact of such.

Service of divorce papers keeps you moving in a positive direction away from infidelity, BUT NOT NECESSARILY AWAY FROM RECONCILIATION. You can opt for R at any point in the D process or, even begin R concurrently and pause or halt D if R is gaining traction.

Also, many times, when the foggy wayward witnesses your resolve, they are impressed-at least on some level. They tend to regard you in a different light, with newfound respect. Protecting one’s dignity is noble and a beautiful thing to behold. It’s an admirable show of strength and the absolute opposite of "pathetic". It shows how seriously you regard the covenant of marriage and how exclusive, special, protected your love and devotion, is.

And, as you walk away with your head held high, chin up, with your dignity on full display, that will be the best chance you have of saving this marriage. If she has any spark of remorse in her, any remnant love, it will be kindled in that moment.

If she doesn’t come running after you, just keep on walking and don’t look back. If she does come running after you, make sure she’s in it to win it.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 9:40 AM, Monday, April 3rd]

posts: 1307   ·   registered: Oct. 25th, 2013
id 8785478
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OrdinaryDude ( member #55676) posted at 10:03 AM on Monday, April 3rd, 2023

Should just sit here and wait for HER decision? While there is a possibility that A continues but with more carefully chosen ways.

No, you should not care what she thinks or wants at this point.

Learn to lie like Cold War spy, shield your thoughts, feelings, wants, plans, etc from her.

Go gray rock to her and follow what I posted above.

She is relying on you to be that "nice guy" so stop it! That’s why she thought she could get away with it because she thought so little of you and now you dare to call her on it and she’s pissed.

If she isn’t weeping uncontrollably and begging for your forgiveness on her hands and knees then she doesn’t give a crap about you or the M, believe her and take action.

[This message edited by OrdinaryDude at 10:04 AM, Monday, April 3rd]

I was young and dumb and stayed with a cheater.

posts: 3427   ·   registered: Oct. 19th, 2016   ·   location: U.S.
id 8785481
Topic is Sleeping.
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