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And if she got lured into something vs running head first after it, that matters to me in my R/D decision.

One thing I’ve wondered about is whether to primarily think of the A as one offense or thousands. It almost feels like for practical purposes I should just put it all under one umbrella, as enormous and foul as it would be, and look at it from a far enough distance where I can get it all in one field of view. AND if I do that, then the question of what started that one single offense takes on a lot of meaning. I think that was going on in the back of my mind yesterday. But the other way of seeing it is each lie, each text, each sex act is an offense in and of itself, and then nothing about how it starts really matters. Does that make sense?

That was going to be the focus of my response to your question above. Your WW's A wasn't a ONS. Your WW had multiple decision points to either extract herself from the A and place her family as a priority above it instead of continuing on with the A. To stop betraying her family and his. At some point she became a willing participant regardless of the origin. The origin story is not as important as you were focused on. Any one of those acts could have been the spark that uncovered her A and blew up your family. Yet she continued on. The A was more important to her at that time than her family.

If she is still focused on blaming the OM, you do need to correct her. Regardless of his part in this, she went along and prioritized the A for months and years, to the detriment of her family. I'm not sure she gets that yet and until she really does she will continue to be an unsafe partner.

[NO POLITICS]

[This message edited by SI Staff at 11:35 PM, Saturday, February 18th]

The nitty-gritty is that at least some of us feel about as awful as we can feel when we've been betrayed. Ink, you seem to be one of those people (as am I and most, if not all, of the BSes on SI). Realizing that is a step in healing. You can't find joy again, IMO, unless you take down the barriers, and you can't take down the barriers unless you know what they are and that they are really there.

You ask whether to view your W's A as one event or many. My answer is that your best bet, IMO, is to let your thoughts take you where they want to (with strong boundaries against harming yourself).

Sometimes your W's A may seem like 1000s of betrayals, sometimes one. Sometimes a specific instance will loom large; sometimes another; sometime nothing in particular.

Sometimes you may want R; sometimes, D; sometimes, you may just be stuck. Sometimes you may see your W as she was when you fell in love (assuming you did), sometimes you may be disgusted with her. Sometimes you may want revenge; sometimes you may have immense empathy and sympathy. Sometimes you may feel very hopeful, sometimes you may be sunk without any hope at all. Sometimes you'll think these things simultaneously....

You probably already have and 'observer ego state'; if you don't, I expect you can create one pretty easily. My reco is to use your internal observer to keep yourself safe while your mind and your emotions go every which way. Let your mind and your feelings flow where they want to go. You'll eventually stabilize. It almost doesn't matter what platform you stabilize on.

It might help to think of recovering from being betrayed as an illness for which the only cure is to let go of yourself and have faith in yourself to heal, by getting out of your own way.

It is a painful process, but you really will be stronger after going through than you've ever been before, whether you R or D.

sisoon- can you tell us what were the consequences your wife was supposed to face if she doesn't give into blackmailers demands? Because, I believe this matters the most. If consequences were like blackmailers hurting you or your other family members through a violent act or by any other means then I could sympathize with why your wife had to give in. Her desire was to save you and her family and not her pleasure needs. So, I don't understand why you don't see her as a victim here. I am not saying you should have reconciled with her but you could see her as a victim and not a perpetrator.

If consequences were loss of her job or job promotion or something similar that doesn't put her, you and your family in any physical danger or social embarrassment/shame then I would understand why you were pissed at her. And, did this affair ever turned consensual from blackmailing?

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 9:43 PM, Friday, February 17th]

EllieKMAS answered your question.

You're trying to find some mitigation for the choices she made that make them more mentally palatable for you (and I am in no way criticizing you here - I did this too and I think a LOT of BS's do).

So are any of these Jedi mind trick things? No. But I’m still convinced he came around with intent and skill. And she should have been able to fend that shit off and she completely failed me.

Perhaps he is that good at seducing women. The truth, I believe, is probably closer to Mike Demone from "Fast Times at Ridgemont High, who put out "the vibe" to every woman until (a vulnerable) one responded. No Jedi mind tricks, needed. When you throw enough shit to the wall, some of it sticks.

Even if I'm wrong, it doesn't change the fact that your WW was vulnerable to his advances. That's on her, not you, not your marriage, not Venus traversing Aquarius or any other excuse.

Guys, I fucking hate this. It’s so bad. So fucking bad.

We know. And I'm sorry you're going through this shit, brother. This is why I often stress the importance of focusing on you, your recovery and healing. Infidelity is a mind-fuck of epic proportions, and it takes time and focus to adjust to a new and strange reality.

You know... it takes two to tango. Who led the dance doesn't fucking matter.

I’m sorry you’re hurting Ink. This really is so incredibly hard.

Please don’t apologize for the thread either. I think that even for the most logical amongst us, there can be a lot of value in working through your thoughts by actually writing them out in words. I still find myself learning things about myself and crystalizing my own thought process by virtue of spelling it out here and reading the comments of others. For example, I had not read a lot about bargaining in the context of infidelity grief and I think the coping mechanism that I was calling denial is better described as bargaining (P.S. Sorry to inadvertently hit on the "denial" trigger for you). I also know that whether they commented or not, there are people who read along who are wrestling with similar thoughts so I imagine this thread benefited others.

No one is a finished project.

This. From your previous posts, my understanding is that your wife’s defensiveness when challenged is a longstanding issue arising from FOO issues that has been brought to a considerable head due to her affair, rather than being situationally specific thing, pertaining only to the affair. As I’ve mentioned in previous threads, I can relate to this somewhat. My husband’s much less-significant (but long-held) form of defensiveness was not anger, but to become nitpicky/pedantic. This is a trait that I find annoying in the best of times, but found infuriating post-A. I will tell you from experience, even if you are aware of the issue and trying hard to correct it, it’s not going to disappear overnight. I think the best you can ask for on it is that you are seeing continued progress . Like Hellfire, I do worry (quite a bit!) that the effect has been to shut down open-communication about the A however. That seems to serve her (and rugsweeping) more than it serves you, but you are the boots on the ground on this. I encourage you to keep an eye on this.

Speaking of rugsweeping,

after my last thread that in those terms, my default shifted from R to D, as in if she does nothing, I leave. She has to actively acheive R. The details behind that are admittedly subjective, but my published list of requirements still holds.

This is great progress and I think it is a wise way to approach things for you.

One thing I’ve wondered about is whether to primarily think of the A as one offense or thousands.

I don’t totally understand the need to make this distinction. I personally think of my H’s affair both ways depending on the context. Certainly at the outset, the details of all the specific infractions (big and small) were important. Regardless of how you categorize it, I think that learning a lot about how it started is important for you to understand and process it and in digging into your wife’s whys. In a lot of As (certainly not all), there is a big lead up to the first major line cross, and after lines are crossed it becomes easier to continue doing so.

IMHO, there is a high probability that your R will fail.

Speaking as a member, I view comments like these as neither helpful nor constructive. First off, the OP didn’t ask. Secondly, none of us are in that relationship or have crystal balls. It sounds like InkHulk hasn’t made up his mind as to whether he intends to R or D. My take is that he would certainly be motivated to attempt R if R is possible, however he (appropriately) has concerns about whether she is capable of doing what its going to take to get there.

My WW’s most passionate EA was a catfish. She had no idea until after Dday I wanted everyone’s contact information so I could hunt down OBS’s. This most hot and heavy AP didn’t exist, he ghosted her after she wouldn’t send him money for a plane ticket here or help with his dying daughter’s medical bills. I was very pissed at the betrayal, she was very upset that this guy scammed her. She felt used and betrayed.

All of that to say, your W should have very negative thoughts towards the AP, she should feel used and scammed. She should look back on it with disgust. But, that doesn’t give her a pass, she also needs to understand she is no better. She played along.

You probably already have and 'observer ego state'; if you don't, I expect you can create one pretty easily. My reco is to use your internal observer to keep yourself safe while your mind and your emotions go every which way. Let your mind and your feelings flow where they want to go. You'll eventually stabilize. It almost doesn't matter what platform you stabilize on.

It might help to think of recovering from being betrayed as an illness for which the only cure is to let go of yourself and have faith in yourself to heal, by getting out of your own way.

It is a painful process, but you really will be stronger after going through than you've ever been before, whether you R or D.

This feels heavy and specific. Got any references you can point to for this?

If the dude is some Uber predator manipulating women as sexual conquests, why is he engaging in a protracted relationship that was only sexual for less than half the duration?

I do this this is a good point. However, one "principle" of the other forum is that it is easier to keep an AP than groom another one. My wife describes being overwhelmed with guilt after first having sex with him and he had to talk her out of confessing (telling her that I almost certainly wouldn’t forgive her and he was worried about our kids. Please add this to my list of manipulations). She describes sleepless nights and contemplating telling me many times, and contemplating suicide. She believes he never lost a minute of sleep over the whole thing. My wife eventually "broke up" with him but tried to stay "just friends". And for a couple years he kept fishing and trying to get back into her pants (very typical refrain on the other forum) and she shut it down. But it’s almost certain he wanted more from her than she was willing to give.

But for goodness sake people, I am not giving her a pass here, I am not rugsweeping, GET OFF MY BACK!

[This message edited by InkHulk at 8:26 PM, Friday, February 17th]

All of that to say, your W should have very negative thoughts towards the AP, she should feel used and scammed. She should look back on it with disgust. But, that doesn’t give her a pass, she also needs to understand she is no better. She played along.

That is an interesting twist on this. I want her to feel disgust about him. Like, I’m thinking of going all Clockwork Orange on her to make her nauseous at the thought of him. I’m pointing out these manipulations, that he was a user. But in my efforts to make her hate him do I run the risk of her putting too much blame on him?

Edit: to make it completely clear, I am not threatening to harm her, I am using a metaphor from that movie.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 8:38 PM, Friday, February 17th]

Like Hellfire, I do worry (quite a bit!) that the effect has been to shut down open-communication about the A however. That seems to serve her (and rugsweeping) more than it serves you, but you are the boots on the ground on this. I encourage you to keep an eye on this.

I am keenly aware. I have an ever growing written list of questions, and she knows she has to figure out her whys. That stuff isn’t going anywhere (NO RUGSWEEPING HERE, KEEP MOVING). Feel free to ask me about it in the future.

sisoon- can you tell us what were the consequences your wife was supposed to face if she doesn't give into blackmailers demands?

For what it’s worth, I’d also be interested in this, in case you are worried about threadjacking.

I'm curious about how that hit you, if you care to share.

I guess it feels like there should be some exceptions to the rule of complete personal responsibility, and things like rape leading to Stockholm Syndrome and blackmail would be on that short list.

Thank you everyone. I think I really needed somewhere to process all that. If I was short or offensive, please let me know in PM and I will apologize. I hope after all that and I wave a white flag that you don’t feel like I just took you for a ride. I do think she is immensely wrong and responsible for what she has done to me and our children. Her past trauma’s don’t excuse her, even if they predispositioned her. I still have this shitty road to walk. Thanks for walking with me, it’s a little less lonely.

Nothing for you to feel bad about on here man. At all.

You really, truly, want to save your M and not get divorced, at almost all costs. That is understandable. And so you are quite prone to try to spin your WW's affair to make R at least a possibility---doing these mental gymnastics to absolve her of at least some agency i.e., painting her as someone manipulated by Big Bad OM, putting blame on her past traumas, FOO issues etc.

You have to understand in the meanwhile, your WW is trying to spin *her* narrative to make herself look less bad too. She felt immense guilt after having sex with OM for the first time? How do you know, really, and how do you ever find out for sure whether it is true or not. The fact of the matter was that your WW was able to keep betraying you for 3 years. And frankly, even after all these months after DDay, she still does not seem all that sorry.

She needs to feel revulsion and disgust for her OM, not only in that he tricked her, but in that he conspired with her to hurt YOU and YOUR FAMILY.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 8:58 PM, Friday, February 17th]

For what it’s worth, I’d also be interested in this, in case you are worried about threadjacking.

The basic details of Sisoon's story are in his profile, if you're interested in reading them.

How do you know, really, and how do you find out for sure whether it is true or not. The fact of the matter was that your WW was able to keep betraying you for 3 years. And frankly, even after all these months, she still does not seem all that sorry.

I can’t know for sure, but she told me this in a time when she was being brutally honest with me, telling me things that almost destroyed me but kept telling because I asked her to be honest. And it fits her character as I understand it. Could she be a bunny boiler? I guess. That’s the scary part about people with malice in their heart, you just can’t see it and we subconsciously assume everyone around us is mostly like us inside.

I think she’s sorry, I do. She has been plagued by toxic shame her whole life. It has made her life much worse than it could otherwise have been, and by extension mine. She knows this and is, I trust, working on that in IC and her introspection.

Maybe just a further thought on the blackmail piece. Not saying it directly relates to Sisoon’s story, but you guys have my full attention (sorry boss). Human trafficking/forced prostitution often starts with a bait and switch which turns into blackmail or threats which turns into prostitution to pay off the "debt". Law enforcement used to prosecute the prostitutes, they were after all breaking the laws against prostitution. It’s been a relatively recent shift in perspective to see it as human trafficking and those women as victims.

I’M NOT RUGSWEEPING! My wife wasn’t blackmailed or trafficked or anything. I’m just thinking.

That is an interesting twist on this. I want her to feel disgust about him. Like, I’m thinking of going all Clockwork Orange on her to make her nauseous at the thought of him. I’m pointing out these manipulations, that he was a user. But in my efforts to make her hate him do I run the risk of her putting too much blame on him?

I get this. My xwh's ap reached out to me 4 months after dday to spew her bullshit apologies on me and to tell me 'what he was feeling'. Can you see my lip curling up? Like really? (side note: one thing I am immensely proud of myself for in the aftermath is that I spoke to her exactly once after dday and never responded to her again). I felt utter revulsion at her feeling entitled to contact me, and completely disgusted at her as a person. I showed my xwh the messages that night, looking back I think I wanted him to feel that same level of disgust too. Of course he didn't (unbeknownst to me at that time he was still in pretty constant contact with her).

But Ink, your wife needs to get there on her own. She absolutely should feel disgusted by him, but more importantly she should feel disgusted by who she was with him. You trying to 'make' her feel that is IMHO counter-productive to her work. One, yes, I think she's having a hard enough time with real accountability that it runs the risk of her mentally giving herself a pass because 'om was a horrible human'. And two, it still keeps a whole lot of focus on the ap. He doesn't deserve that focus, not from you and certainly not from her.

I know it takes time and a lot of effort to wrestle the ap into the right mental file location and for a while they loom large. But if you're working towards R, he has to move into the background and not take up so much mental space for either of you.

My wife eventually "broke up" with him but tried to stay "just friends". And for a couple years he kept fishing and trying to get back into her pants (very typical refrain on the other forum) and she shut it down.

Sorry, if am bothering you with my questions. You don't have to reply if you don't like. I am little confused here with your story. Your wife had 1 year physical and emotional affair with AP. After a year, out of immense guilt, she broke it off with him. For next two years she tried to be friends with him and shut him down whenever he made advances. So that means there was no affair, emotional or physical, in those two years. Am I correct so far? And in fourth year, for some reason, she confessed to you about her affair. Am I correct?

I know it takes time and a lot of effort to wrestle the ap into the right mental file location and for a while they loom large. But if you're working towards R, he has to move into the background and not take up so much mental space for either of you.

Wise words. I just can’t stand the thought of a Bridges of Madison County situation. In my life I would have killed two "loves" in someone else’s hearts: my father’s love of alcohol and her love for him. If only I had the power. Seems like an appropriate time to post the serenity prayer.