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Thank you everyone. I think I really needed somewhere to process all that. If I was short or offensive, please let me know in PM and I will apologize. I hope after all that and I wave a white flag that you don’t feel like I just took you for a ride. I do think she is immensely wrong and responsible for what she has done to me and our children. Her past trauma’s don’t excuse her, even if they predispositioned her. I still have this shitty road to walk. Thanks for walking with me, it’s a little less lonely.

Guys, I fucking hate this. It’s so bad. So fucking bad. We had a fight the other night and I ended up going and talking to my 15 year old son who I knew heard me. He asked to pray for me, he asked me to be praying, and he thanked me for trying to fix our family, he said he knew I could have just walked away. And then we just cried together. I’m pretty broke, bargaining per Ellie’s description seems about right. My mind is just focused on this. I used to be amazing at my job, now that mental energy is on this stuff.

Just sending you hugs Ink. I know it sucks so huge and I hate that you're going through this too. You're wrestling with it right now and trying to find logic in something that has none. I remember being there and it's absolutely exhausting; mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually fucking exhausting. And unfortunately there's no short-cutting it, you just gotta slog through it.

Hang in there. You'll figure it out and you'll be okay no matter what shakes out. Keep posting too. You're in good company that totally gets how crazy-making all of this is.

It’s a hell of a mind f$*k. All of it. Trying to make sense of it all and the bs perception of things takes it’s toll. I completely understand. None of us want to believe the person we trusted most in the world could be capable of an affair so we try to make sense of it any way we can… I don’t think it’ll ever make sense to me fully. I believe I’ll get to a place of acceptance or maybe I’m already there. But until my last breath I’ll never fully comprehend it all. I sometimes feel as shocked as first day of discovery a year later.

Thank you for venting and sharing your thoughts.

Thanks Ink for the thoughtful and thought provoking repartee. I have a feeling you’re going to come out of all this just fine and probably use your experience, that intellect and empathy to pay it forward to the future betrayed.

I’ve admittedly skipped a few pages of this thread, but I was late to realizing the length of the affair. When you described the timeline, you also implied that there’s a lot you don’t really know or feel sure about.

In my opinion, both of those things call into serious question the plausibility of your predator/victim narrative. If the dude is some Uber predator manipulating women as sexual conquests, why is he engaging in a protracted relationship that was only sexual for less than half the duration? And it stretches credulity to see your wife as any kind of victim when she went along with this for years and isn’t fully transparent about what went on.

[This message edited by Grieving at 11:23 AM, Friday, February 17th]

I just saw your post about the fight and your son. I’m so sorry. This is excruciatingly hard to experience.

My life hasn’t been easy—family of origin trauma and abuse, and the usual share of big and small trials in adulthood. But nothing has hurt the way my spouse cheating has. It just hits so close to the core.

Hang in there. It does get better.

Just curious. What was the fight about? I assume the A, but what were the specifics about the fight?

Admittedly weighing in very late, but this is is the core issue for me:
I don't have to move forward in marriage with the OP. I have to move forward--or not--with my spouse.

So, at the heart of it all I have to accept that my spouse was the kind of person who would accept and welcome advances from someone else. That makes my spouse unsafe for me.

If I choose to allow us to even try to R, my spouse needs to work and demonstrate over and over now that they are no longer that person. They need to show me that they are now safe for me and that they can maintain that safety and their boundaries with other people outside of our marriage, even when (especially when) the going gets tough for my spouse or for our marriage.

That it.

I can be super angry at the OP and I acknowledge that I am at times, but staying focused there drains my energy in unproductive ways. And, as you aptly acknowledge, this is draining enough.

You're just doing your best to wade through the bullshit. I appreciate the conversation. I thought you were rather respectful, despite some of us not backing down.

The conversation with your son had to be so painful. It also has to put you in a position where you feel you have to make your marriage work. That's a rough place to be.

Which also leads me to ask what was the fight about? It sounds like she's still defensive. A defensive ws is an unremorseful WS. All the more difficult for you.

[This message edited by HellFire at 1:42 PM, Friday, February 17th]

Thank you for the kind words. I’m not trying to re-ignite the 10 page firestorm, I need a break, I’ve got a wicked emotional hang over this morning. Too much rugsweeping

But I did have one thing I wanted to add/explore here and answer a couple questions. I want you all to know I do appreciate you bothering to share your experience and thoughts with me, and it’s all done so respectfully. Hellfire, I don’t expect anyone to back down, that would be a waste of time.

One thing I’ve wondered about is whether to primarily think of the A as one offense or thousands. It almost feels like for practical purposes I should just put it all under one umbrella, as enormous and foul as it would be, and look at it from a far enough distance where I can get it all in one field of view. AND if I do that, then the question of what started that one single offense takes on a lot of meaning. I think that was going on in the back of my mind yesterday. But the other way of seeing it is each lie, each text, each sex act is an offense in and of itself, and then nothing about how it starts really matters. Does that make sense?

About the fight and my uncertainty of events:

First off, I will forever use language like "as I understand it" about the affair because it reflects the reality that I can’t verify what she has said, she has lied to me, and she still could be lying. I don’t see that ever changing. Maybe the day will come that a polygraph comes in to play, but even then I don’t think it will move the needle enough to change that for me.

#baysianlogic

#thatsforyouthisisfine

A few months ago I put down my first explicit boundary with anyone and I told my wife that I refused to be in the presence of her defensiveness and anger, she has a real problem with them. She has done a pretty good job of it since then, but it has also had the effect of stopping conversation about the A because she doesn’t believe she can do it without getting defensive. That is the primary reason I’m in MC, as we’ve agreed that would be the space where we would learn to communicate non-defensively. I both applaud her self awareness and am quite frustrated by the slow pace of things.

Our fight was that we were having a vulnerable talk the other night. She in previous nights had shared some personal insights around conflict avoidance and people pleasing, and I felt like I was trying to respond in kind about how I can take over a conversation and leave her feeling unheard. I think it touched on some deep hurts in her (I admit this is a place I’ve failed her over the years) and so even in the face of my vulnerable "confession" it brought out a defensive anger and that triggered the hell out of me. She is absolutely not a finished project when it comes to figuring this stuff out, obviously neither am I. All I can say is I think I see progress.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 2:59 PM, Friday, February 17th]

it has also had the effect of stopping conversation about the A because she doesn’t believe she can do it without getting defensive.

I suppose I don't have to point out that this is a huge problem. That she is STILL defensive when talking about a 3 year affair,and an enormous betrayal that she perpetrated, is going to continue to derail any possibility of R.

Many BS believe they can reconcile with an unremorseful WS. They essentially drag them through the reconciliation process, at a great detriment to themselves, and usually either end up miserable and depressed, or divorced.

How long are you going to wait for her to reach remorse? Will you stay, regardless?

I feel you are staying for her,and the kids, but what about what's best for you? You matter.

One thing I’ve wondered about is whether to primarily think of the A as one offense or thousands. It almost feels like for practical purposes I should just put it all under one umbrella, as enormous and foul as it would be, and look at it from a far enough distance where I can get it all in one field of view. AND if I do that, then the question of what started that one single offense takes on a lot of meaning. I think that was going on in the back of my mind yesterday. But the other way of seeing it is each lie, each text, each sex act is an offense in and of itself, and then nothing about how it starts really matters. Does that make sense?

I think there's room for interpretation on this, but IMHO? It is thousands of offenses. She has known the full reality for the whole time, so each time she lied to you, each time she texted him, met with him, gave him the affection that was yours by vow... all of those times were decisions she made. An affair doesn't just start with jumping into bed with someone - an affair starts with the texts, the blurring or breaking of boundaries, all the decisions that are made to interact with the ap, and all the deliberate deceit that goes into each one of those things. In short, an affair is not accidental. Each one of those decisions counts on it's own. Just my 0.02 on it anyways.

Our fight was that we were having a vulnerable talk the other night. She in previous nights had shared some personal insights around conflict avoidance and people pleasing, and I felt like I was trying to respond in kind about how I can take over a conversation and leave her feeling unheard. I think it touched on some deep hurts in her (I admit this is a place I’ve failed her over the years) and so even in the face of my vulnerable "confession" it brought out a defensive anger and that triggered the hell out of me. She is absolutely not a finished project when it comes to figuring this stuff out, obviously neither am I.

Look, I think it's perfectly fine to allow that we are works in progress. I don't think for self-aware people that you ever STOP being a work in progress. If she has/had legitimate complaints about your treatment of her in your marriage, that's valid and it's okay for you to take your accountability for it. The problem right this minute is that THE issue in the marriage is the affair. If you think of it like a trauma victim coming into the ER - the affair is a severed carotid, whatever gripes she has about/with you are a broken pinky toe. Yes they're a legitimate issue, but that carotid has to be addressed first before anything else or the patient is gonna croak. She has to understand that and she has to be willing to deal with it like that or any chance for R is sunk before it even starts (ask me how I know that).

As for the defensiveness. I can imagine that having an affair and lying to your spouse about it for three years would make you defensive. But if you read anything by fws's this is one of the first things that they struggled with and had to let go of to move forward. I think that it takes time for some people to navigate that, so I think you're fine giving her time on it. But if you're a year down the road and that hasn't changed, I would be doing some serious reevaluation. All of that to say, YOU get to decide what YOU need here, and I think you're well within your rights to put a clock on the changes you need to see from her.

No one is a finished project.

I suppose I don't have to point out that this is a huge problem. That she is STILL defensive when talking about a 3 year affair,and an enormous betrayal that she perpetrated, is going to continue to derail any possibility of R.

Many BS believe they can reconcile with an unremorseful WS. They essentially drag them through the reconciliation process, at a great detriment to themselves, and usually either end up miserable and depressed, or divorced.

How long are you going to wait for her to reach remorse? Will you stay, regardless?

I feel you are staying for her,and the kids, but what about what's best for you? You matter.

I think if I hadn’t found this place, I would have absolutely fallen into the role of trying to force R at all costs. It’s still a danger if I’m honest with myself, I’ve posted on my fear of D. But I see the wisdom here of letting go of the outcome. This0Is0Fine and I share a love of behavioral economics, and I PM’d him a little after my last thread that in those terms, my default shifted from R to D, as in if she does nothing, I leave. She has to actively acheive R. The details behind that are admittedly subjective, but my published list of requirements still holds.

In terms of how long I’m willing to wait, that is a hard question. I told myself early after D-day that I wouldn’t make any firm decisions for at least a year (unless it was to call it quits if she broke NC or something like that). She is an emotionally immature person, I see that in the clear light of day now. Plus her FOO uses anger and bluster to prevent admitting they are wrong about anything. Asking her to immediately stop being defensive in this situation is honestly an impossible request. I’m willing to be patient, nibble on my shit sandwich, and see if we can rebuild. I love her, and I’d be thrilled to live my life with her best self. So about that hopium…

No one is a finished project.

Amen, brother.

She has to understand that and she has to be willing to deal with it like that or any chance for R is sunk before it even starts (ask me how I know that).

Will you please tell us about how you know that?

IMHO, there is a high probability that your R will fail.

Your WW is defensive about her A, and you’ve stepped onto the rug sweeping road. The more you try to slice snd dice your WWs affair into bites that you think you can, and want to, digest, the more the rug sweeping accelerates. This is a poor recipe for R.

Based on reading through page 8:

Your wife was blackmailed and you don’t care? You don’t think that matters. Man, I completely disagree. I don’t know what else to say.

Look, if this is a stance that we are collectively taking to the point of dismissing the roll of blackmail in starting an affair, I just can’t agree.

The reason the blackmail didn't matter was that my chief concern was my own healing. I can't imagine the pain - anger, grief, fear, shame - that came with being betrayed could have been more or less than it was if my W had not been blackmailed.

Are you saying the blackmail somehow mitigated my W's misdeeds? If so, I could have decided her crime of cheating was exacerbated by being blackmailed. After all, not only did she cheat; she also committed the smaller crime that started the blackmail and the crime of submitting to the blackmail and thereby compounding the initial crime.

How do you view your W's A? I viewed my W's as a symptom of a lot of things, but what stood out most for me was that she was somehow sick. I still wanted to be with her - if she healed.

That's not the only way I could have seen her A. I could have seen her A as sickness and decided I didn't want to be with her any more. Those are 2 of, probably, many healthy responses. But seeing her as sick and wanting R comprised a major part of my response.

Another critical element of my response was knowing from the 1st moment that I had been a good enough H. I did not take her A as a comment on me. I knew she hurt me, but I thought - and said - she wouldn't have betrayed me if she hadn't betrayed herself first. I empathized with her as far as the stress of being blackmailed, but I couldn't forget that she could have stopped that by simply not complying with the 1st demands, which came months before any sexual advances.

The A was hers, not mine. I did not see the A as something she did to me. I saw myself as collateral damage.

What I had to deal with was the pain of being betrayed - and I had to process that pain no matter why my W cheated and no matter what mitigating factors might have been relevant. Although the following might be projection, IMO, all BSes have that same basic need: to heal, to process the anger, grief, fear, and shame out of their bodies. A BS who holds onto one or more of those feelings is not (yet) healed, IMO. I don't think many humanist psychologists would disagree with that, but there are other approaches.

This healing is the BS's responsibility. BS heals BS. The WS can provide emotional support, but the BS has to do the work.

My take is that the sooner you stop focusing on your WS and the sooner you start focusing on processing your own pain, the better.

I don’t want to pick on Sisoon, but that just really hit me in the heart.

No worries.

I'm curious about how that hit you, if you care to share.

If your point is that I may be deluding myself, rest assured that I keep that possibility in mind - but I'm also aware that I really like to wake up beside her and just be with her.

So ... bottom line: To figure out what you're going to do next, your best bet is to figure out what you want and what kind of person you are. You can't do either while you focus on your W.

My reco: Let your D/R decision grow out of who you are and what you want. Separate figuring out those things from the question of whether or not your W is a good candidate for R.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:12 PM, Friday, February 17th]

If it is not her fault, you better be very vigilant, because she will fall for the next "scam."