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Sorry, if am bothering you with my questions. You don't have to reply if you don't like. I am little confused here with your story. Your wife had 1 year physical and emotional affair with AP. After a year, out of immense guilt, she broke it off with him. For next two years she tried to be friends with him and shut him down whenever he made advances. So that means there was no affair, emotional or physical, in those two years. Am I correct so far? And in fourth year, for some reason, she confessed to you about her affair. Am I correct?

8 months of EA

At least 11 months of PA, heavy on sexting due to distance

2 years of "just friends"

Then confessed.

I regard the 2 years as part of the affair. I’ve wrestled in my mind to exclude it, but I can’t. He was still lurking in my life. She still did that trip with him and his family in that time period. She signed off her note telling him she was going to confess with an "I love you". I can’t exclude that time. It was at least a EA again, if you can go back to that after consummating a PA.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 9:43 PM, Friday, February 17th]

I’ve never really framed my husband’s affair in a way that made me question whether it was one offense or hundreds/thousands, but that’s an interesting thought process. From almost three years out, it feels like one huge offense that encompasses some extremely painful smaller offenses that cut me deeply in very personal ways.

Emergent8, I have never thought about how being nitpicky and pedantic is a form of defensiveness, but you have given me words for a trait that has driven me to distraction multiple times in our reconciliation. I’ve never thought of my husband as defensive because he doesn’t get angry or loud or DARVO or anything like that. But you’ve made me realize that being super nitpicky, or requesting that I articulate myself with an impossible level of clarity and precision, is a kind of defensiveness or refusal to engage with what I’m asking or saying.

Sorry for the threadjack. This has been a thought provoking conversation for me.

InkHulk, I’m sorry this is so hard. I hope you find peace and healing.

[This message edited by Grieving at 9:48 PM, Friday, February 17th]

Sorry for the threadjack. This has been a thought provoking conversation for me.

InkHulk, I’m sorry this is so hard. I hope you find peace and healing.

No apologies needed, thanks for contributing. I hope I can help you guys even a fraction of how much you’ve helped me in these dark days. Thank you for the well wishes.

But her confession was that she had sex with him a year before the confession date,right? So, a year before was 2nd year of her 'just friends' years. That means her physical affair continued for 3rd year as well. Am I missing something here? I didnt read the whole thread of that post of yours.

And for me personally, "I love you"s are the worst part of any affairs.

From almost three years out, it feels like one huge offense that encompasses some extremely painful smaller offenses that cut me deeply in very personal ways.

You put a pleasant mental picture in my head of driving away from a mountain of shit. The further I get away from it the less detail I can see and the smaller it looks. That feels hopeful.

But her confession was that she had sex with him a year before the confession date,right? So, a year before was 2nd year of her 'just friends' years. That means her physical affair continued for 3rd year as well. Am I missing something here? I didnt read the whole thread of that post of yours.

Her initial confession contained lies, that it was only one sexual encounter and that it didn’t go as far back. Threat of a polygraph drug out the story I have now, which is described above.

And for me personally, "I love you"s are the worst part of any affairs.

At the risk of stating another gender stereotype, for me it’s the sex. I don’t think I would have crashed like this if she would have cut it off before sleeping with him, even if they had been super emotionally close, even to the point of saying I love you. Not sure, but that’s my guess. For what I do have to deal with, the sex is unfathomable.

My xwh's ap reached out to me 4 months after dday to spew her bullshit apologies on me and to tell me 'what he was feeling'. Can you see my lip curling up? Like really?

Going a little off topic, but I think I would welcome an apology from POSOM, if it were in any way a genuine one. And I plan to ask my wife to write an apology to OBS. Not sure if we’d send it, would probably ask her first, but I would want to read what she would say to her. Seems like a topic worthy of it’s own thread.

So her confession of a-year-ago sex was a lie? And the last sex she had with him was 3 years before the confession? You believe that? I know you might have asked this question yourself million times but still, you believe that?

At the risk of stating another gender stereotype

I don't think this is a stereotype. There are lot of women who are more tolerant to EA then PA.

So her confession of a-year-ago sex was a lie? And the last sex she had with him was 3 years before the confession? You believe that? I know you might have asked this question yourself million times but still, you believe that?

The story is that her last sexual encounter was about two years before she confessed. Are you pulling the one year ago part from the beginning of my JFO thread? Assuming so, yes, that was a lie. She and him came up with a cover story when she decided to confess to try to minimize the fall out. She wanted to clear her conscience and take the anchor of lies off our relationship, but she wanted to spin a story that she thought we could survive. And it’s true, a ONS would have been somewhat less difficult. But that ain’t what happened.

Yes, I believe the story I have now.

Grieving - Start a thread on "Nitpicking as Defensiveness". I have much to say on this.

Going a little off topic, but I think I would welcome an apology from POSOM, if it were in any way a genuine one. And I plan to ask my wife to write an apology to OBS. Not sure if we’d send it, would probably ask her first, but I would want to read what she would say to her. Seems like a topic worthy of it’s own thread.

While I do think it would be a good exercise in insight for your wife to do, I absolutely do NOT recommend your ww contact OBS at all ever again, unless OBS reaches out to her and initiates that contact.

Whether my xwh's ap's apology was sincere or was complete bullshit didn't matter to me one iota - the fact that she felt entitled to contact me at all for any reason was utterly infuriating to me; it felt like one more stab to a vital organ that the ones I had already endured. Her 'sorry' was so unbelievably insulting I find it hard to even describe.

Her 'sorry' was so unbelievably insulting I find it hard to even describe.

Sorry you had to endure that. I would initiate contact with OBS and ask her if she would want to receive the apology from WW.

She describes sleepless nights and contemplating telling me many times, and contemplating suicide.

My WH said similar crap. A couple of months later he was hiding texts (to a different woman, not any former AP) from me and two years later he sent PA AP flowers on her birthday. 2 years after that I discovered he was actively stalking women on IG.

Cheaters lie. She said what she needed to say to elicit some sort of sympathy from you. IF she had sleepless nights, it was more likely because she was afraid of getting caught, not because of guilt.

For me, as a BS, the sex was absolutely the worst part. ILYs are cheap, anyone can say them and they're worth only as much as the person who says them. When I have mind movies, it sure as hell isn't about my starry-eyed idiot of a WH gushing about luuuurrrrve... my mind movies involve wondering what he sounded like when he was fucking her.

This all sucks, InkHulk, it really does. And it hurts like no other pain, and probably will never fully heal. We've all gone through the mind exercises of trying to rationalize why our WSes did this to us. I wanted SO MUCH to believe that my husband was just another dumb dog, powerless against the power of the pussy; that she led him astray, that he was just another simple-minded man-child who couldn't be expected to use both brains at the same time...

(See how that gender-based victimization/rationalization can cut both ways? )

Even if that were true, I sure as heck wouldn't want to spend the rest of my life with someone like that. Would you?

Even if that were true, I sure as heck wouldn't want to spend the rest of my life with someone like that. Would you?

Did you have any inkling at all that he would re-offend after the first time? Ellie, same question to you about remaining in contact.

One way or another I’m sure all of us would agree we don’t want to spend our lives with unsafe partners, much less active cheaters. WS’s have to change from whatever the hell was the thing that made it possible for them to cheat if they are to be good partners.

Everyone keeps asking me if I’d want to stay with a naive person, but what character flaws are the "good" ones that we should be happy our WS has?

Cheaters lie. She said what she needed to say to elicit some sort of sympathy from you. IF she had sleepless nights, it was more likely because she was afraid of getting caught, not because of guilt.

My wife confessed out of a desire to excise the tumor that was killing our relationship. I believe that. I was clueless and the risk of discovery seems very remote, I haven’t found anything in all my digging that would have been a smoking gun to me when I wasn’t suspecting anything. She has some credibility with me. Nowhere near 100% trust, but some credibility.

It seems like unforced confessions are pretty rare among cheaters, so the fact that your wife had some impulse to come clean is positive. It’s weird, though, that she made up a lie and confessed to that.

I admit I wonder if your internet rabbit trails and many of the ideas and issues you’ve raised on this thread are you casting around and trying to fill the void left by your wife’s unwillingness to be honest and forthcoming about exactly what happened and when.

Human beings have a drive to make sense of things. When confronted with a void, we create narratives to fill it. Different personalities create different narratives—I tend to fill gaps with pessimistic worst case scenarios. Other people may settle on rosier possibilities.

But the void itself—not what kind of guesswork you fill it with—is the issue if you’re trying to reconcile. If she’s not being transparent and open, you’re left with an abyss of lies and deceit between the two of you.

There’s always going to be some level of doubt and guesswork even when the WS turns over a new leaf and is honest, but I don’t know if a healthy relationship is possible if the void isn’t mostly filled with truth from the WS.

[This message edited by Grieving at 2:19 AM, Saturday, February 18th]

I admit I wonder if your internet rabbit trails and many of the ideas and issues you’ve raised on this thread are you casting around and trying to fill the void left by your wife’s unwillingness to be honest and forthcoming about exactly what happened and when.

Seems pretty plausible.

But the void itself—not what kind of guesswork you fill it with—is the issue if you’re trying to reconcile. If she’s not being transparent and open, you’re left with an abyss of lies and deceit between the two of you.

I have told my wife multiple times that I am frustrated by the stunted flow of information. And while MC is supposed to be that space, the last two weeks have basically been diverted to other "fires". It needs to happen, and I told her that I’d like to be able to be talking just between us by the end of this month. That would be a couple MC sessions to gain some skills and momentum. We’ll see.

Interesting little nugget tonight regarding whether she told me things to elicit sympathy. A song came on tonight as we were cooking dinner to Pandora, Better Dig Two by the Band Perry. She promptly skipped it, even though we generally like that song. I asked her why she did that and she said it was a song she contemplated suicide to. She’s either genuine or master level manipulator. Genuine is much easier for me to believe.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 3:07 AM, Saturday, February 18th]

I think this has probably been a good exercise for you. You are putting your thoughts out, and getting great feedback.

I for one don’t believe you are rug sweeping. Rug sweeping is pre tending the affair never took place and operating as it never did. Always a recipe for disaster.

What I get out of these 13 pages is you trying to reconcile your own thoughts as to how you can reconcile with her. This is manifesting in ways for you not to excuse the offense, but make it tolerable enough so you can forgive her. It wasn’t so bad cause she wouldn’t have done it if AP wasn’t a predator. She was blackmailed into it. She stopped it on her own. She confessed. All these things are ways to soften the blow she dealt you in your own mind. But it was bad. There was a tremendous amount of effort she took on her own volition to keep this thing going. She didn’t care about you. But that also doesn’t matter.

The thing is you want to forgive her. You should. This has been 13 pages of you asking in a roundabout way how to do it. You don’t need our permission. Frankly you would never get mine. What she did in my mind was despicable. Yet I understand. My wife’s affair was also despicable. I tried for 5 years to figure out how to do it. I cane to the conclusion I couldn’t. Yet others here have.

Don’t spend another second justifying what she did. You cant. Decide if your life going forward with her, even knowing what she did, will be better than if you divorce her. That’s the bottom line

You don’t need permission for that by anyone other than yourself to make that happen if that is what you want

Ellie, same question to you about remaining in contact.

Looking back now with benefit of hindsight, I knew my marriage was over on dday1, regardless of what he did (and that was the bare minimum). I desperately glommed onto the hopium for 9 more months before I finally admitted to myself that I was done trying to save it. I also think I knew deep down that he didn't have it in him to do the work, I just didn't want to admit it. And even though I am very happily divorced and I 1000% knew it was the right choice, it was still the hardest decision I ever had to make.

Not to dash things either, but be skeptical of confession. Mine 'confessed everything' on dday1, which I thought was a really good sign. Turns out he confessed only what he needed to to clear whatever twinges of conscience he was feeling, which was maybe 60% of the 'truth'. In all my time here, I can't recall any instances of a ws actually doing a full confession right out of the gate. Not saying your ww hasn't told you the bulk of things, but just remember that she has a bad track record with dishonesty to this point. And defensiveness ain't gonna help that so I get why her being that way makes you crazy.