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In that statement, my Mum’s failure.

I can sympathize with the pain she was going through, but her responses to it were so protracted, and at times so severe, that it became abuse. Children of alcoholic parents will have an idea. Listing the worst of it would take several minutes and leave you incredulous.

I know that if I drop the bundle I will be making victims of people who I love.

Someone has to stop the cycle. In this case it’s me and my siblings.

In a chaperoned way, I have reestablished some relationship with my Mother, through involvement with my two kids.

My step siblings are also doing well, although I don’t see them often. Their kids are now High School and Uni age. They pretty much lost their bio dad from the fiasco. He moved overseas. From all accounts he had been a good and involved father until the affair.

So yes, I don’t get a pass. No one does. I’m not required to respond with Pollyanna like optimism, but have to keep standing and making good choices.

Anyway, back to supporting InkHulk.

[This message edited by straightup at 4:44 PM, Monday, February 20th]

Wow, StraightUp, incredible parallels between our experiences with parents, definitely relate to what you wrote about your mother.

I’ve gotten a solid 14 pages of support here, I think it’s more than my share for a while, until my next infuriating idea comes up and you can all tell me how wrong I am again

Thank you again, all, this helped me a lot.

Hey, ink. Please,don't think you are always wrong and we are always right. You did convince me of something that i never agreed to before. So, I will be waiting for your next 'infuriating' idea. It's how we grow and growing is healing!!

**Editted, maybe I went a bit overboard....

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 4:07 AM, Tuesday, February 21st]

***God hates us as men to be simps***

Look man, in the spirit of finding common ground, I agree that no one should be a perpetual door mat to anyone else. Boundaries are good.

But I also am pretty sure that you and I don’t see eye to eye on this point and the 14 pages that have already been written speak to where I stand.

Surreal experience update: had a pretty big blow out with my wife last night over her disrespecting my parenting. Didn’t want to be around her this morning, so I got out of the house early and needed somewhere to go. I decided to retrace her journey to POSOM’s place. I did not confront him, but the two hour drive and all the meaningful landmarks I passed (church we were married in, her childhood home) were deeply moving. Definitely drove home the message that this was not a crime of passion (no pun intended). She agrees and admits it was premeditated. Murder 1 it is, I guess.

I did something similar. I took a long weekend to be alone and I visited every place where my WW admitted to betraying me. Almost 20 years ago she said that her EA became physical "a few times" when she happened to be in OM's town on business. The truth is that it was at least a dozen times and she planned nearly every trip for that express purpose.

Seeing all the places on her timeline made what happened real and stripped away the veneer of lies and minimization. She always talked about the "slippery slope" as though she was pulled by an irresistible force into some kind of trap that had been set for her. But every time OM made a move she went with it and then immediately planned an opportunity for his next move.

It wasn't a slippery slope. It was a lot of time, effort, planning, and deception. She didn't drive miles out of her way in a strange city (before smart phone navigation) to meet him at his place so they could make the five minute drive to a Museum together.

We see a lot of BS's coming here many years after the fact still dealing with the trauma of their betrayal. I think that has a lot to do with the fact that common practice in dealing with infidelity has for years enabled and encouraged rug-sweeping to some degree or another. Even beyond the old school "shared blame" thinking, many therapists have held for a long time that you don't need to know everything and that it's probably better if you don't know. This enabled WSs who also didn't want you to know. Does a WS really change if they're not forced to deal with the full truth of it?

I don't think you can heal from trauma unless you face the full truth of it. What they really did. Why they did it. How they justified it to themselves.

For me, it had the feel of visiting the grave of a loved one. The moment was thick. You know nothing exterior is going to change but you also know it’s worth doing for what is happening inside.

I had also found myself shortly after D-day at the park where they first made out, she says she "fell in love" with him then and there. A work picnic was scheduled there, seemed like a cruel joke by the universe. But I was able to face the place and survive and that was helpful. I don’t fear it anymore, like I’ve checked under that bed for monsters. All clear.

I intend to visit all the significant locations with that in mind, to face the places with the goal of claiming power over the triggers. Don’t know how that stacks up against psychology theory, but it’s working so far for me.

And as stated before, it definitely drove home the intentionality of it all to me. Hot blooded crimes of passion happen in seconds and minutes, not hours and days and weeks and months.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 7:35 PM, Sunday, February 26th]

I intend to visit all the significant locations with that in mind, to face the places with the goal of claiming power over the triggers. Don’t know how that stacks up against psychology theory, but it’s working so far for me.

I don't know about the psychology of it, but my sig line is from a Stoic philosopher I agree with -- "better to conquer our grief than deceive it."

Attacking triggers head on was my path through. Our brain is only trying to protect us, so we do have to show up at these places and realize, it's just a place.

And as stated before, it definitely drove home the intentionality of it all to me.

It's as insidious and treacherous as a human can be, to set up that 'second' life, making us invisible in order to find precarious hand holds on their moral justifications.

And no WS on the planet wants to be the villain, despite truth being self-evident, so the deceit kicks into a gear we can't imagine.

I think that's why it is so important a WS has to own all of those intentions on the other side of it. Otherwise it doubles down on the pain when there is any attempt to cling to those justifications that simply do not exist in reality.

Hot blooded crimes of passion happen in seconds and minutes, not hours and days and weeks and months.

In my case, it took family friend AP six months to transition the friendship into what he wanted. But once my wife jumped at the six month mark, she was all in. Part of our healing was her retelling that transition. She nearly threw up, it didn't sound romantic. It didn't sound like he cared about her at all in any way. The lies she told herself to 'make it okay' caused her more damage than she understood.

The way our MC described it, is was if the AP used her like a roll of paper towels and threw her away when she was all used up.

Wasn't much passion when the smoke cleared.

It's the kind of story I would feel sorry for her, if it wasn't a Hell of her own creation. They risk it all for not much at the end of the day. Definition of a tragedy, if they didn't choose it!!

I think that's why it is so important a WS has to own all of those intentions on the other side of it. Otherwise it doubles down on the pain when there is any attempt to cling to those justifications that simply do not exist in reality.

Not just the pain---but the inability to grow as a person.....particularly, one that we would want as a partner.

Well, but I don't think 'I realized AP was using me' is a sign of remorse from WW. It is hardly even REGRET. There is little comforting with hearing from your WW: 'I realize now that AP was a scumbag who was not who he seemed, so I chose you'. I hope WW is remorseful for what she did to you and that YOU are her first choice, even if AP had every intention of marrying her himself.

Meanwhile InkHulk, my heart goes out to your 15-year-old son. All this has to be weighing on him terribly, on ways he may not want to elaborate to you and in ways he does not even understand himself right now. I hope WW realizes that this is the pain SHE caused and more importantly that your son has access to help too.

Well, but I don't think 'I realized AP was using me' is a sign of remorse from WW. It is hardly even REGRET

My point was in response to InkHulk talking about the passion of it all, and it is very rarely anything other than two people using each other. I don’t know that InkHulk’s wife has gotten to proper remorse yet, and it helps to burst the fantasy bubble and any rationalizations about her choices.

In my R, my wife confessed but she began that confession still being defensive about her choices. All that changed once she saw HER actions as being just as shallow and horrible as AP. I think InkHulk needs his wife to stop sweating her agency and own her decisions, so he can figure out if he has someone he can work with.

I don’t think R can even begin until a WS takes 100 percent responsibility for taking M problems to justify shitty choices OUTSIDE the M.

I am late to the party. All I want to say is that I appreciate the way InkHulk has thoughtfully articulated his feelings to us with insightful words and reasonable expressions all the while dealing with his own life and the emotional roller coaster he is perpetually on right now. It has given me a lot to ponder. Frankly, this whole thread is an example of internet strangers sharing their time, energy, vulnerabilities, and painful experiences in an effort to help each other. We may not always agree or see eye to eye on everything, nor should we, but we are all trying to navigate these heartbreaking and stressful circumstances to the best of our abilities. Each one of our situations is unique on its own, like a fingerprint. But we are bound by similarities nonetheless. And for many of us who are non-writers or who have trouble putting our feelings into words, this forum is very helpful indeed. I applaud all of you for making the effort to use your traumatized hearts to help a fellow victim of such a devastating experience.

[This message edited by LightningCrashes at 6:41 PM, Monday, February 27th]

On love, maybe just read my signature. It's not the best sentence I ever wrote, but I think it was an important lesson for me.

I used to cycle through signatures a lot. That one has stuck for a while.

Thanks for the kind words, LightningChrashes. I completely agree with your assessment of the beauty of strangers supporting each other thru difficult times. We’re always talking about the ugliest parts of humanity but in doing it we are also quietly living out some of the best.
I enjoy talking about these things, I welcome any PM’s or further discussion.