SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

but seriously if these people could just take a few steps back and look at themselves

That is the very thing they NEVER want to do and fear the most.

Underneath all the layers of narcissism, manipulation, lies, deceit, and the facade of being a decent human being, is a self-loathing, selfish child who is incapable of finding their own self worth.

TheEnd is correct. My WH after several years of therapy and reflection and discussion with his best friend since childhood (who as a victim of infidelity himself was not interested in continuing their friendship if my WH wanted to continue on That path) said he realized how shallow he was - his word - shallow. That he had serious trouble with empathy or really caring about much of anything and certainly nothing that would qualify as "deeply caring". He came from shallow people in a very don’t talk about your feelings place. He never learned and he realizes now how defective he is - you see he still has trouble caring..he just knows it now.

And for that I AM sad for him.

In your case I’m guessing your WH falls in that same spectrum of not knowing how to care and simultaneously not wanting to face his own flaws. You can’t expect him to face what he did to you if he can’t even face flaws in himself. :(

I’m so sorry. I know how this feels and you have handled it 1000 times better than I did.

Am I supposed to be feel lucky? I got the biggest, comfiest, nicest box in his mind/heart? If I can look past the box where he houses an AP and just appreciate how lovely my box is, we're good? He put me in a box! Never mind that I'm his wife, I'm outraged at that as a person. A pretty jail cell is still prison. Just who the f does he think he is to sentence me to that life?

So much of what you wrote resonates and this just hits me right in the gut. This is me. I'm in a box that he made so comfortable that he probably genuinely thinks I should be content, at peace, happy. He told his OW that he was in a "happy marriage". I believe that he believes he was, and probably that I should believe it too. It's probably why he could look at me with love even with this entire other life right behind his eyes. Like the rest of his life, the rest of who he is shouldn't matter to me if the person I have right in front of me is successful, caring, a great father, a good son in law and brother in law. I wonder if he thought he earned the right to have this other life because of this?

He now stands to lose everything so he doesn't truly get why you get to be more upset than him. Hence his cry for help.

Yes. This. This sounds like the truth to me. I still don't know what I'm going to say to him when we get the chance to address this. I'm more convinced than ever that this will be his new direction.

I've begun to think there is a type like mine that I keep seeing here, the smart, successful, great guy that everyone likes and envies, who plays the perfect family guy role just right, but the guy that when you look close, takes zero crap from anyone and zero responsibility for himself, just entitled at the core and unable to be wrong, lose or feel shame. There's a lot of false or resentful pride mixed in due to the childhood hurts or FOO judgements or rejections, and nobody is going to make them feel bad about themselves ever again, that was decided long before we came along.

I feel like I'm reading my own story over and over. I feel like I'm reading the cheat codes, it's so eye opening. Like this is the actual story behind my husband. It actually IS his story, too, with the childhood family issues, feeling rejected by his parents, false fronts and hidden resentments.

Why put up with it for another second? You know all you need to know. He's a fraud.

I need some time from the emotional whiplash to figure out what I want, what I need to move forward. It's not that I'm trying to figure out how to save my marriage, exactly, because I don't even know what my marriage really is. I just need to feel like I have some understanding of everything so I can make good choices. And I guess I'm still hoping I can find the right words to get him to tell me his why. In the end his why will probably be exactly what everyone predicts... I just need to go through the process of getting to that aha moment myself.

I get it, obviously. I soooooo wanted the why. After months of pestering (and all the abuse he could heap on me) his why is the same as everyone else's.

BECAUSE HE WANTED TO.

You do have to take things at your own pace. You've been dealt a huge blow and you need time to absorb it. Make sure you are consciously taking care of yourself. Call on your sister or a friend to take care of your child so you can sit and cry if you need to. When I went through this I did that. I checked into a hotel for a night with a good book, a bottle of Port Wine and I ordered room service so I didn't have to face anyone. It was the best thing I could have done. It was like a reset.

He now stands to lose everything so he doesn't truly get why you get to be more upset than him. Hence his cry for help.

Yes. This. This sounds like the truth to me. I still don't know what I'm going to say to him when we get the chance to address this. I'm more convinced than ever that this will be his new direction.

In his mind, you have the power to save the marriage and save him from pain. All you have to do is rugsweep, forgive him and move on. Sounds selfish and of course it is, but he is in total panic mode right now and starting to feel the pain of what he is about to lose. Who amongst us wouldn't beg SOMEONE to make the pain stop? It's the cry of despair.

But in the end, he is asking you to sacrifice yourself. If he loves you, how can he ask that of you?

He is very far off from accountability. Very far. And you are very far off from acceptance (review the stages of grief) which is normal. If you get to acceptance before he gets to accountability, well, it's game over for him.

(I wish waywards would realize this. There is a brief window where we still believe in who we knew. If they proved us right with humility, transparency and kindness they could save so much.)

I can't tell you what to say but I'd advise you to keep bringing the convo back to you and your needs. You want the truth. You want your agency back. You will not tolerate lies or pity parties. He had one helluva time on your dime and defrauding you out of a true marriage/connection so man up and do the right thing now by treating you as an autonomous human being who has been defrauded by his lies of ommission. Anyting shy of that proves he is the selfish coward you don't want to believe he is. His choice.

If he needs mental support he can find a therapist. You are not his therapist. If he is suicidal, call the hotline. If he needs someone to tell him he's a great guy and going to be ok, hand him is AP's number (just kidding but I've said those words. Call her if you need to feel good about yourself.) You keep the convo focused on what has happened to YOU and what YOU need.

[This message edited by TheEnd at 11:00 PM, Friday, August 26th]

Take as much time as you need. He's had years. It's only fair that you hold all the cards now as far as next steps. You've been doing wonderfully thru all the shock and devastation. Lean on your sister if you need to. Let her take your son as much as she can so you can have either time to yourself to decompress and process or privacy for discussion with your WH if you need it. Eat or drink protein shakes lots of water. Spend a lot of time on self care.

And I guess I'm still hoping I can find the right words to get him to tell me his why

I get this. I spent years twisting myself up with this. My therapist said something really useful along the lines of he’ll tell you different versions of this over time and they’ll always not be true in essence.

I spent years analysing in my head, with my friends and occasionally with my children trying to figure it out. As a previous poster said, it’s actually about acceptance.

In my case I eventually concluded that my Ex lacked empathy for me, is entitled and arrogant (although significantly less so post divorce and the hard reality of consequences), is in general a conflict avoidant person and never had the maturity to handle complex, adult relationships. He liked being thought of as "the good guy" but actually never took a stand for anything. His A was shocking at the time but eventually I realised that it was in fact consistent with a lot of his behaviour. I just couldn’t read the writing on the wall but I do now. But that took years. And he would never be able to have explained it to me because he is one of the least self aware people I’ve ever met.

You’re never going to hear what you *need* from him- if he was adult enough and self aware enough this wouldn’t have happened in the first place.

It’s a process, I get that. But time, therapy and perspective will eventually give you insight and understanding. But it may not give you your old life back. And you will come to see that it wasn’t what you thought it was all along. Big hug.

I write about this all the time. The first four years of a child’s life are the building blocks. They are so important that all of you need to look up Circle of Trust or Circle of Attachment. It starts at birth. A child is pretty basic at birth. They need food, a change of clothing and nurturing. They need interaction, a lot of eye contact and a lot of really good positive attention. If they’re not given that for whatever reason they’re going to pay the price for the rest of their lives and so will anybody who interacts with them. It may be that the first four years of their lives were pretty good and then something happened after that. People don’t realize that children have jobs to do. They have to mature physically, mentally, emotionally and socially. If anything in their environment stops that then they stay right there at that age emotionally. Everything I have read here and all over SI is that many, if not most of you, are dealing with children. Children put their fingers in their ears and go na na na rather than listen to a parent tell them what they’re doing wrong. That’s what your spouses are doing they’re just not hearing you, but they say they are, it is not getting in, it’s not getting to that child because it’s so hidden that they don’t realize that’s what’s running their lives. There are really good therapists who are very well trained in EMDR and other frontline therapies that help people get to those issues from childhood. Without that, without real intense intervention, they will stay right where they are emotionally for the rest of their lives. They really will never grow up and that’s tragic not only for them but for any of you and any children they might have.

Sigyn, you are so damn impressive. Hats off and hugs to you. I wish you didn’t have to go through this awful thing, but you are amazing and you’ll get through it. ❤️

The other night I told my H - you're actually asking me to provide proof of what I know so that you can calculate whether or not to be honest with me. Your wife. You are actually sitting there across from me, watching your wife's face, and the only thing in your mind is: how much does she know, and how can I lie so she has less information than I have? When did this become what you wanted in a marriage? This moment when you're hoarding secret info about your sex life from your wife so that you can feel powerful? Is that who you ever thought you would be as a husband?

Bravo! You nailed it exactly. The sad thing is that in that moment he probably was not crying out of remorse, or even regret for what he has done. He was crying because he has completely lost control of the situation.

TheEnd,

In his mind, you have the power to save the marriage and save him from pain. All you have to do is rugsweep, forgive him and move on. Sounds selfish and of course it is, but he is in total panic mode right now and starting to feel the pain of what he is about to lose. Who amongst us wouldn't beg SOMEONE to make the pain stop? It's the cry of despair.

But in the end, he is asking you to sacrifice yourself. If he loves you, how can he ask that of you?

TheEnd,
Thank you for this. My story is similar to Sigyn and I needed to hear these words so much. I've been confused about his despair cries and begging to save him and save our marriage and I wasn't quite sure how to respond. You are right. He is asking me to sacrifice myself and I am not going to do that. No matter how much he is trying to make me feel guilty for breaking up the marriage and how negatively it is going to affect our baby, I have to move on and start over and get myself away from this manipulative influence that he has on my mind. You just gave me fuel to fight for myself.
Sigyn, I hope you will find it too.

Wow. Big "aha"moment for sure. Thank you

The cheater whining and crying and begging to save the marriage without taking any action to repair the damage is typical.

Glad so many can see through that.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 11:54 PM, Sunday, August 28th]

Hi Sigyn- Hope you are getting some space and additional clarity this weekend. Has he tried to hoover?

We are thinking of you, Sigyn.

Ditto!!! ❤️

I am so sorry that your H is a liar and cheater just like mine.I am so angry and sad.You need to talk to family and a therapist. You need to have an std test too. I am praying for you.

Ugly ugly weekend, I finally ate something for the first time in days and immediately felt like vomiting, but after an hour for it to settle and a long walk I feel a tiny bit more human.

Quick update while I have some time to myself. I've kind of reverted to psychological warfare with H since I feel like that's what he's doing to me with his stonewalling. I told him that we have a small window in time when we can still approach this as a team rather than as opponents, so let's at least try a little teamwork. In reality I actually know we're not on the same team and I don't really mean it, this is me trying my best to make him feel safe enough to share something with me. H 'agreed', I guess. I was operating mostly on his facial expressions at this point.

So I told him to close his eyes and remember when I was pregnant, we'd just moved to a new state and H had just started working from home - I asked him if he remembered what I looked like pregnant, and he said yes. I asked him for one of his memories of me being pregnant and he described a sweet one. I asked him to now picture the other woman he was seeing then, the one he considered a girlfriend, right when our son was born, picture her face in his mind, her name, the place they used to meet. I told him all I want to know right now is what he told himself when he met her that opened that door to having a relationship. He didn't answer.

But then I asked: "Was that door inside you always open?" Long pause, and then he nodded YES.

My heart just sank like I could actually feel it drop inside me. I didn't think I could feel more pain and I even already knew the answer, but there it is. The door in his heart or mind was always open to others. It was never a place just for me. That's still the only direct answer I've gotten, and it was just a brief head nod.

I've also gotten his plea for help, and here he is very generous with his words! He suddenly has a lot to say, wants to rehash his family of origin issues, and he wants draw a line between those issues and his inability to address "hard subjects" with me. He's essentially blaming his childhood for not being able to tell me ... what? That he has had mistresses and sex partners and sex workers? That he's not monogamous in his heart and never has been? And I am to help him become better at telling me about his sex workers? So far the request for help is nonspecific but I can tell he is gearing up for a very huge pity party for himself.

I have an appt Wed with the one attorney I spoke with by phone and if I'm unable to coax info out of him by then, I will have to drop the team act and become an opponent. Or at least give him an ultimatum. Something I have never, ever wanted to do. I loved him so much. I can't believe he has thrown that love away. I just want to call a time out from this and bury my face in his chest and have him comfort me. All these years have come to this, it's impossible to fathom.

I’m sorry you are facing this. Anyone who plays "victim" and does not take responsibility for their actions is not someone you can reconcile with.

At least not long term b/c they will most likely resort to cheating.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 1:00 AM, Monday, August 29th]

He has probably read enough to know that if he blames his childhood you will let him off the hook. He has no idea what’s going on in his subconscious. It is a child with no empathy and no maturity who absolutely does not care one whit about anybody but himself. When he said "yes his door has always been open" that’s probably the most honest he will ever be.

I don’t know if any of you have watched parents put a plate of cookies or candy in front of their very young children and leave the room with the caution that they not eat it till the parent comes back. Based on the age and maturity level of the children some will sneak and eat and others will wait in agony. You can almost tell by what your husband has allowed himself to do that he’s probably about three years old emotionally. That’s tragic. Unfortunately you have paid the price for that and you really shouldn’t because it will eat you up if it continues, stress can be a killer. You’ve got children so you absolutely need to be in a safe place where you can grieve and move on. I don’t think he has it in him to fix what is so horribly wrong without years and years of therapy and there’s no guarantee.

What I have noticed on this forum is the behavior of grown-ups acting like their spouses can’t tell them what to do. I remember my children when they were very young saying that very same thing to me. But they grew out of it. It just seems there are so many WSs who will do anything rather than give up control. And control of you has been sneaking around behind your back ha ha ha.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 12:44 AM, Monday, August 29th]