SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

S, appalled at how he lies I suggest you watch Lying in the ethical spectacle by Jonathan Wallace. It hits everything, it’s a great article

You did great considering you are traumatized!

Your husband is the classic cheater, deny, deny, deny.

I remember when I had my D-Day 17 years ago, and I discovered emails between my WH and OW discussing their first tryst and their next planned tryst. Yet he insisted they were only friends and kissed once in the car. Despite indisputable proof.

Don't be surprised if your husband spews just unbelievable nonsense, give him the floor and allow him to dig himself into a deeper hole.

I hope you are doing OK, lean on your sister and your IC and do meet with attorneys asap.

I'm back at work today and I've read everything you guys have written and now that I'm away from home and can breathe for a second I just want to say thank you all for such strong support, and the predictions you all made actually prepared me for so much of what's been happening. And also for putting my own feelings into words. I hate that so many people have gone through this but I'm in tears reading things that are like my own thoughts and feelings coming from other people! It's so helpful, so while I'm coming up for air from my intense cheating husband focus I wanted to say thank you. I feel like I have a team at my back.

One thing that a lot of you are pointing out, that when H took off to sleep in the apartment he probably contacted his OW and started erasing his trail. I know that, he would do it regardless and I just can't control any of that anyway. He can erase evidence, he can delete and clean up whatever he wants to. H is a man who likes to be in control, as some of you said he wants to be 'the smartest guy in the room'. You have him pegged accurately. He is that kind of person. And what I know right now is that I am the one with our marriage in my hands. I know what he's done, not all of it, but enough to weigh whether or not I want to stay married to him. I will be the one to decide. I never, ever wanted or asked to be in this position but here I am.

I picture H frantically deleting messages and erasing apps and giving the 'abort mission' code to his legion of cheating buddies like he's rearranging deck chairs on the titanic. What he's controlling in that moment feels like a game to me. What happened to our marriage has already happened. I'm heartbroken by the fact that I loved him so much and he's a deceptive, devious, lying man with none of the morals I thought we shared. If he keeps deceiving, lying, hiding and cheating, that's who he is. I'm already sick in my soul over who he is. If he's squirreled away still being deceitful that's probably what he'll always be doing. I'm just heartsick over who he is.

I think you are an amazing person. You did such a phenomenal job with that confrontation. When I went through this 30 years ago, I didn't have a resource with the wonderful, wise people on this site. Even if I had, I don't know that I could have done what you did. You not only were able to remember all the advice and predictions of what his response would likely be, but you were able to detach from the rage you felt. Your description of it being like watching a bug trapped in a jar will forever be etched in my mind. It was a perfect description of the lunacy of their ridiculous denials.

I think some of his flailing is because he has presented this image of the perfect husband to not just you, but his church and the community. He's terrified of watching it disappear. Admitting it is like murdering that perfect guy he created in his head. But that's not your problem. He married you, and owes you the truth about what you married.

If and when he decides to come clean, brace yourself. When my EX decided to come clean it was epic. The OW was the wife of his best friend since 8th grade. He invited his BFF and I over to dinner at his temporary apartment, and over dinner described every graphic detail of the affair. Every sex act, every place they went, how in love they were, how exciting it all was and more. To this day I don't know how his friend didn't throw him off the 17th floor balcony. But one thing was clear. He didn't come clean out of remorse at all. He just wanted to finally be able to talk about his whirlwind love affair. The fact that it was to his wife and her husband didn't matter.

I think you are going to need that cool resolve you had a few more times. Concentrate on not missing a detail, because it will give you clues as to where your money went. I'm among those rooting for you.

I read what happened and I’m sorry that it turned out like that. I’m on the road today so a quick piece of advice/strategy to possibly get him talking…as my WH also would not reveal anything/admit to anything until I would reveal a "source" like a game of tit for tat. So I got purposefully vague and let him think I had sources I did not. How did I do this? I eventually responded to "what do you think you know?" With "There are a lot of things a private investigator can find out." (I had not hired a PI nor did I say that I had). I also at some point said I knew not to talk about the information I had and that it would be disclosed in the divorce (I’m a lawyer so I didn’t say I had been advised by my lawyer to not disclose but the implication is the same). I then said that the only possible way of salvaging out relationship if it was salvageable at all was for him to tell me everything and even if I already knew it if I didn’t hear it from him then it was over.

So he confessed to a whole bunch of stuff…and then continued with the A going deeper underground.

He later - years later - admitted he thought he was smarter than me and that he would never get caught, even after he was caught he still thought he could trick me. When he was caught again he still thought he could. He also still believed for years that I had actually hired a PI even though I told him numerous times that I just talked about what PIs could do and that his mind did the rest.

On dday 3 (the final dday) I saw him with my own eyes with his AP across a parking lot. He tried to say it was not her and that I was blind and that it was another coworker. He told me I was crazy…so I called his bluff and called the coworker that he said he was with and just told her straight up my Ws said he was talking to her in the parking lot and she said "no, he was with [yhe AP] in the parking lot" and she wanted to know why I wanted to know. I said "because WS is a liar" - I was done trying to tiptoe around what was going on and I didn’t care who found out anymore. Only then would he admit it and he was mean and nasty and angry I had called his bluff.but I think at that point he realized there was no length I would not go to in order to prove he was lying…and that I was through protecting my own "reputation" in order to do so. Over the next few days he had some sort moment of clarity and realized I was done with the lies and then he spilled it all - everything- more than I wanted to know. And he started therapy for him and he is still evolving and changing. And we don’t live together anymore…it was too late. My feelings had changed.

And This was 1.5 years after dday 1.

You seem to be taking gbetter steps than I did early on. Just be kind to yourself. My signature line is there for a reason…I hope you are doing okay today. As best you can…

Quick T/J - OMG charity - my WHs AP was also the wife of one of his best friends. They (all 3 of them - my WH, the AP and the OBS) all worked together (and continue to do so after both all three relationships have been terminated) and my WS was in their wedding. I have constantly wondered how the OBS did not murder my WS at work as they saw each other just about every day.

ThisIsSoLonely, Yep. It's amazing isn't it? But to keep it on topic, I learned a lot during his perverse confession to me and OBS. I knew what hotel charges to look for, ballet tickets, limousine services etc. It was very helpful to my lawyer.

Wow, you did such a good job with that conversation. Hats off.

However, so so sorry he chose to abusively gaslight/DARVO - that just broke my heart for you. To insinuate you needed help - ugh. The lack of empathy and integrity is staggering.

Stay safe please. He's a cornered rat.

[This message edited by skeetermooch at 4:55 PM, Friday, August 26th]

He may need your help, more than ever?

My guess is,he is going to say he's a sex addict..he can't help it..it's a sickness!! A disease!!..he's so ashamed..blah,blah.

He sounds like a run of the mill serial cheater,who kept cheating because it was easy,and he hadn't been caught. He believed you would never find out, because he thinks he's smarter than you.

He's not an addict. He's a lying cheater.

The OW was the wife of his best friend since 8th grade.

my WHs AP was also the wife of one of his best friends.

Omg this is so appalling, it seems like there's no end to the relationships they shatter! What a way to wipe out all of your closest ties at once!

The other night I told my H - you're actually asking me to provide proof of what I know so that you can calculate whether or not to be honest with me. Your wife. You are actually sitting there across from me, watching your wife's face, and the only thing in your mind is: how much does she know, and how can I lie so she has less information than I have? When did this become what you wanted in a marriage? This moment when you're hoarding secret info about your sex life from your wife so that you can feel powerful? Is that who you ever thought you would be as a husband?

This was while he was already looking down at his lap crying, so he didn't really respond to it, but seriously if these people could just take a few steps back and look at themselves, how could they WANT to be this person? This can't possibly be who they wanted to be in their lives.

If you have access to his phone check if he has a Reddit account. You can find his post history and the groups he's posting in, there's one dedicated to people in the adultery 'lifestyle' yes it's a thing and it's gross ..he sounds like he would be posting in there.

Sister, you are thinking so much more clearly than I was when I discovered my WH’s transgressions. Please make sure to appreciate yourself and take care of yourself.

One of the hardest things for me to acknowledge and understand—it took me a VERY long time to really get there, to my detriment—is that my WH didn’t have the same type of life goals and feelings that I had (and that most people have) at all. I had believed in a person that didn’t even exist for 27 years. What I came to realize was that, rather than wanting to BE a good person or any type of person really, he wanted to make others BELIEVE something about him in any given situation to get what he wanted/needed from them. He definitely wanted people to believe that he was a good person, an standup guy, a great father, a model husband. He just didn’t want to do the hard work to BE any of those things. And looking back, our friction points were often around where his public facade and the at home reality did not match. He was always lying and manipulating on multiple levels, I think, because he did whatever he needed to stay in control and get what he wanted in any situation. His sincere, sad, victim face was one of the biggest ones, as it turns out. He could make all of us feel so guilty and mean for making him feel bad.

Your WH may be really really focused on this too. So while your world is falling apart, he was likely totally focused on maintaining his mask and fighting off any attempt on your part to reveal his reality and destroy his control. As I said before, they can get TRULY vicious when they feel a threat to their secret self. Mine has protected himself at literally everyone’s expense. His seeming completely lack of care or even acknowledgement that others have feelings has been one of the many horrifying discoveries that, frankly, took me a long time to really accept. It so goes against what we’ve all believed about these people that we trusted with our and our children’s lives.

This is really devastating and soul-shattering stuff, so please take care of yourself. Try to expose yourself to the toxicity in limited doses and then take time out to regroup and think. We’re here for you, and again, you are doing simply awesome in one of the worst experiences that any of us can have. Strength to you.

The other night I told my H - you're actually asking me to provide proof of what I know so that you can calculate whether or not to be honest with me. Your wife. You are actually sitting there across from me, watching your wife's face, and the only thing in your mind is: how much does she know, and how can I lie so she has less information than I have? When did this become what you wanted in a marriage? This moment when you're hoarding secret info about your sex life from your wife so that you can feel powerful? Is that who you ever thought you would be as a husband?

This was while he was already looking down at his lap crying, so he didn't really respond to it, but seriously if these people could just take a few steps back and look at themselves, how could they WANT to be this person? This can't possibly be who they wanted to be in their lives.

This is damn impressive. Really strong work.

if these people could just take a few steps back and look at themselves, how could they WANT to be this person? This can't possibly be who they wanted to be in their lives.

(((Sigyn)))
this is what is called addiction. Until they THEMSELVES figure out if they WANT to be that kind of person full of masks, deceit, lies, low consciousness, nothing will change. They can't step aside and look at themselves truthfully. No awareness. Your WH is not unique. As you can see his actions and behavior follows predictable patterns. That's why this knowledge and expectancy helped you with confronting and the outcome wasn't really a surprise to you. You know who you deal with.

Stand strong for yourself! You have lots of support.

When did this become what you wanted in a marriage? This moment when you're hoarding secret info about your sex life from your wife so that you can feel powerful? Is that who you ever thought you would be as a husband?

I can tell you what I learned, as it seems our WH's share some mother issues, personality traits and operating systems. First, when you asked those questions you probably made him overload with panic, fear, negative emotions, excuses and scenarios he may have only had static in his head. Or at least static is what mine called the overload he experienced when I was tenacious or had him cornered. I'm not sure it's about power, but an inability to accept that he was caught, an uncomfortable glimpse at what his actions have wrought, and an aversion to shame. I kept thinking I was talking to my logical, dependable, honest husband and he had clearly left the building, but it took me a while to see he was someone entirely unpredictable and unknown to me.

My WH actually called his MOW GF arrangement a win/win for everyone. Really? So much winning for them, not so much for their spouses or their integrity. He sees it through a very different lens. Any damning info I had on him that further upset me or worse made me nag at him or rub his nose in what he'd done, made him feel bad because the truth is ugly and he did not want me to know, therefore lying or saying nothing was the right call in his warped logic. He didn't want to hurt me, he was protecting me, he actually tried to spin it that way. He STILL can't understand how he hurt me so much more, plus disrespected me by lying and manipulating me, or how I could feel humiliated, or why I won't just toughen up, stop being so upset, let it go, move forward, water under the bridge, in the past, etc.. He does not get it. He's smart in so many ways but not so self aware or people smart after all. Also he is more selfish than I ever imagined, but I wasn't looking and I never asked much from him. He is not an emotional guy and has admitted he doesn't have feelings. I corrected him. He has them, they are just as compartmentalized as his secret naked friend was, but for different reasons. I think my WH really enjoyed the bad boy program and I spoiled his fun and his dumb gf blew it by giving him the evidence I found. Also Affairs happen, I'm just upset because I can't accept that fact. You will likely add to our stupid things wayward say threads with gems of your own.

I never got through to mine, we had no epiphanies, he has never gotten it in a way visible to me. He will also argue that he is a good person, he's not like those other people. He doesn't like this site, or the advice and support I get here. I thought it would help him and have tried to share it with him. He has come around to thinking it's good I'm trying to help others talking here, but never asks if I'm getting better. If I had a broken bone, he'd be the best nurse, but tending an injury he caused makes him feel bad about himself, so he avoids it and any and all A related issues. All of this is a long way to say there may be reasons your H is incapable of comforting you, and incapable of helping you, himself or the marriage because he is so far gone with his fantasy life, or because it is who he is or has decided to become, or he doesn't have those tools in his belt. He's probably got lots of ego, tons of pride and maybe a chip on his shoulder since childhood. He probably resents you for petty reasons and feels he deserves whatever he has done and wishes you'd stop making him feel like shit right now. Often the audacity and tone deafness of most of what he did say to me still floors me. He is a piece of work and I had no idea.

It's really icky, peeling back layers from someone you thought you knew, and realizing how much of what we believe about them is what we wished them to be. Some of the clues were there all along, some have been a surprise. Also a surprise has been watching the winding path I have walked and my many ways of becoming on this journey. I'm OK saying I still don't know what I want or where I want to be, and I am letting life unfold right now while I regroup. No judgement. I hope you can offer yourself that. Let yourself feel what you need to feel, stay strong in yourself and your core values, focus on the love in your life you know to be real, or untainted. Your WH may tell you he always loved you, or you are the love of his life and he never wanted to end his M, and on and on - I even got a fake affair end date allegedly because he fell back in love with me and the guilt was too much.... such painful lies. All that one really covered for him was a six year vs nine year A, and what difference is more years after the first one? Why put me through that? His answer, I wasn't thinking. I took a shot. They don't love like we do, or think like we do, and maybe aren't capable. I understand about as much as anyone else here about the big why questions, and even if you can get them, the damage is done, and you will still be left with what now. I'm sorry this happened to you too. I know you will continue to make wise choices moving forward and hopefully avoid as many of the ugly pitfalls on this journey as you can with the help of our stories and your strength.

You may fall into the what's wrong with me, why wasn't I good enough for him, why didn't he love me enough traps, especially if you ever had issues with self esteem, but I promise you, you will realize what a prize you are, what a strong and smart and beautiful person inside and out, and if nothing else good comes from this, you can stand on firm, high ground and be proud of how you have lived your life and the person you have been to all those you have loved. Nothing about your side of the equation was ever false, only his. The real question is what's wrong with him? How did he let himself get so broken? You may be cracked but you're not broken and those cracks become proud battle scars. Under duress we show who we truly are. He should be ashamed and you should hold your head high. You're doing great. Hang in there. Breathe.

I kept thinking I was talking to my logical, dependable, honest husband and he had clearly left the building, but it took me a while to see he was someone entirely unpredictable and unknown to me.

This is exactly what I was trying to do. Exactly. I was trying to reach the logical, dependable, honest husband I thought I had. It's how I would have talked to him in any other circumstance when he was acting outside of what I thought was his real 'self', like we all forget ourselves sometimes and get wrapped up in some emotional reaction and if a loved one pulls us back into ourselves we can see that we're caught up in that emotion and not acting rationally. I thought I was giving him a reality check and he'd pop back into being my partner. He didn't.

What I'm not getting and what you guys keep saying (and I believe it, I just can't seem to feel it for myself yet) is that he's not that husband. He's not 'reachable' in the way I think he is, because the husband I'm trying to reach was never who he was.

you probably made him overload with panic, fear, negative emotions, excuses and scenarios he may have only had static in his head. Or at least static is what mine called the overload he experienced when I was tenacious or had him cornered. I'm not sure it's about power, but an inability to accept that he was caught, an uncomfortable glimpse at what his actions have wrought, and an aversion to shame.

I agree with all of this. And it feels like there's no way around it. He is incredibly shame-averse, he would (under other circumstances) even be the first to agree with this. He went to therapy for two years but could never admit to his therapist what he wanted to work on in himself, because in order to do that he'd have to list his weaknesses. He couldn't do that. He enjoyed the part of therapy where he listed all of his grievances from his childhood, probably he listed a lot from our marriage (I never asked, believed everyone needs an outlet). We even joked about it, that he "failed out of therapy" because he wasn't ready to face his own flaws but the only reason it felt funny at the time is that he was able to admit that, and said that he would at some point muster the courage to go back to therapy when he was ready to tackle the next part - himself. I am just now realizing he never did go back. It's not a funny joke anymore. He couldn't own up to his flaws because they were SO far reaching and serious. I hate that I ever laughed about his dropping out of the process. Can't connect to the woman who thought it was endearing that he admitted what he was stuck on. It was his entire second life.

Once in MC (years ago) our MC said my WS was an expert level compartmentalizer. So much so that she wanted him to seek individual treatment regarding that ability.

Mine, like just about every other WS written about on this board, could not understand why I was sooooo upset. He figured I'd be angry but devastated? Hurt pride? Sure, he understood that but actual deep and lasting pain? What for? He was with me, never intended to leave me and was a good husband (in his mind). That's the first clue at their lack of emotional depth and connection. "I provide and am kind and a good dad and take you on date nights. I'm great." No true concept of the deeper feelings that bond people. Maybe they never understood the concept or maybe they allowed an incremental erosion of that concept as they waded into infidelity.

I remember that session well as the MC looked at me like she'd discovered America. You see, TheEnd, how he was able to do it? He compartmentalized.

My response: Am I supposed to be feel lucky? I got the biggest, comfiest, nicest box in his mind/heart? If I can look past the box where he houses an AP and just appreciate how lovely my box is, we're good? He put me in a box! Never mind that I'm his wife, I'm outraged at that as a person. A pretty jail cell is still prison. Just who the f does he think he is to sentence me to that life?

He's had you in a box Sigyn. He made it as nice and comfortable as he could. He now stands to lose everything so he doesn't truly get why you get to be more upset than him. Hence his cry for help. He does not currently possess the concept of that deep emotional bond and how gut wrenching it is to have that severed. Either because he allowed his deeper connection to you to erode in increments that were actually pleasurable for him (cheating). Or, he never possessed that ability in the first place. That's the answer I think you're currently looking for.

And you my dear, got out of the box. It's an ugly landscape you find yourself in now but you're out of the box. He doesn't get to put you back in through gaslighting, lying or playing the victim.

Whew, TheEnd, your post gave me shivers. Yes, exactly, all of it. Learning about the compartments only made him more a stranger to me. How could he have parts he hid from me? We hid NOTHING from each other ever. Until he did. He told me over and over you and her had nothing to do with each other. You were always separate. Funny though, a lot of his compartment "rules" got fuzzy with time and he had trouble keeping everything straight in the real world and that was his undoing. That plus MOW wanted more of everything, his time, his body, his business trips, lunch dates, she was very needy and he didn't want to upset her either, needed the side chick to keep putting out. They communicated daily for almost a decade and took so many trips together he can't remember a fraction of the when or where or tell me a thing about the relationship they had or the rules they had in their secrecy. Why? That's in the doesn't matter box of irrelevant detail.

Compartmentalizers need their boxes separate, nobody touches the boxes but them. Attempts to get through, to pull back the curtain can cause the entire infrastructure to collapse. Things get messy. Emotions try to pop up. Accountability and judgement and shame seep out if anyone messes with them or they tip over and then the anger shows up. It is surreal that I never understood this about him. I always interpreted that as quiet strength, how nothing bothered him, he travelled through life with zero baggage. He has it, it's just hidden away in storage and he never intends to look there. Makes him feel bad about himself and apparently, I bear the brunt of all the others before me who have made him feel bad things. I can trigger him into a stranger if I try to enforce normal logic or rules on his twisted logic, and I become the problem here, not him or his choices. Maybe that's the DARVO stuff wrapped up in it too. I never wanted to be an armchair therapist trying to understand my H.

I've begun to think there is a type like mine that I keep seeing here, the smart, successful, great guy that everyone likes and envies, who plays the perfect family guy role just right, but the guy that when you look close, takes zero crap from anyone and zero responsibility for himself, just entitled at the core and unable to be wrong, lose or feel shame. There's a lot of false or resentful pride mixed in due to the childhood hurts or FOO judgements or rejections, and nobody is going to make them feel bad about themselves ever again, that was decided long before we came along. They just don't tell us about all that, because its in a dusty box they don't look at. They tend to pick honest open hearted kind nurturing types who buy into all the myths they tell themselves about how awesome they are. We can be easy to fool with big trusting hearts, even with our sharp minds. And yep do they ever think they are smarter than us. I kinda resent being so grossly underestimated.

Thanks for helping me see it and know I'm not alone, and putting the me too out there to share.

Edited to add, mine said I didn't think you'd be so hurt or take this so badly. In what version of reality would I not be devastated and bereft and filled with grief and regret? None. But he must not know me either.

[This message edited by whatisloveanyway at 8:20 PM, Friday, August 26th]

Wow, you have done so much better than most of us. I am so sorry what you're going through. I am in R - Rugsweeping, not reconciliation, because I did so many things wrong. Because of the hell of the last 8+ years I am very much in the D camp.

Your husband does not exist. It will only get worse from here. He will blame you outright, he will lie to you, he will yell at you, he will intimidate and threaten (maybe not outright, but it's there) violence if you push for answers. He will gaslight and make you question your sanity.

Why put up with it for another second? You know all you need to know. He's a fraud. I wish I had the last 8 years of my life back. I truly believe the stress I experienced lead to my current battle with breast cancer.

Get out, now. Your future self will thank you.

Strength to you.

I'm glad it resonated. Hope it helps Sigyn as well.

Edited to add, mine said I didn't think you'd be so hurt or take this so badly. In what version of reality would I not be devastated and bereft and filled with grief and regret? None. But he must not know me either.

Just put it in a box!

(That's what they'd do anyway)