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Just another of your many supporters here.

So sorry, Sigyn.

I guess you have a lot of answers even if he said not a word. It's good you can find that place of objective dissociation for right now, to get you through this.

Too bad his little kingdom got flattened.

I'm so sorry, this sounds completely infuriating and exhausting. You already knew his modus operandi - lying by omitting the truth - and this is just a continuation of that, I suspect. He is employing classic gaslighting in saying that there is something wrong with you for confronting him on things he KNOWS he has done. Hang in there.

Sigyn:

Not surprised he went immediately to DARVO! You caught him off-guard and he did not have a convenient lie at the ready. So deny, attack, blameshift, blah, blah. You blew up his cozy double life. He was very comfortable believing you are gullible and easily fooled. Be ready for love bombing, plenty of excuses, and “I think I’m a sex addict, and thank you for stopping me!” Blah, blah, blah.

You did fantastic. Continue to disassociate. His fake world will not crumble all at once. He arrogantly thought he could keep you in the dark indefinitely. It’s the arrogance that is his downfall. Focus on you and your child. You will get through this. You are ahead of him now. But be prepared for anything. Protect your assets. He may go on the attack. Good luck.

[This message edited by fareast at 5:19 AM, August 26th (Friday)]

DARVO

I just looked this up, and honestly this is one of the things he often does in arguments but I didn't know there was a name for it. We've tried working on this over the years. I tell him I'm unhappy about something he did or said, and he responds defensively saying the way I brought up the issue was hurtful to him, and then it becomes completely about how I brought up our problem 'wrong'.

Be ready for love bombing, plenty of excuses, and "I think I’m a sex addict, and thank you for stopping me!" Blah, blah, blah.

I am anticipating this as his next step, he's already given signs that he will now reveal something that makes him the victim and we can both focus on that rather than his affairs, sex workers, and whatever other ugly things I don't know about yet.

Haven't decided what I'm going to do next, if this is his route.

Wouldn't honesty be so much easier? Are there really people who will jump through hoop after hoop of flaming dogshit to deny and make excuses and lie and hide instead of just coming clean? Why make everyone travel for 50 miles in a tortured scribble of twists and turns when you could get to the same endpoint in 1 mile with a straight line and be done with it?

Honesty is never easier when you are faced with owning the fact that you are a total POS.

I would encourage you to just move forward with filing and separating. You know that he has done this far too long, and had you fooled the entire time. THis isn't something he will stop willingly or successfully.

Let him make those changes on his own, and if he truly can make some changes he can them come back to you.

But tolerating anymore of his BS only puts you in a spot of abuse, victimization, and more hurt.

You have done amazingly well! I’m so proud of you, I wish I could have been you on my dday (I was a wreck who did everything wrong).

I am not surprised to read your WH is gaslighting you like hell and admitting to nothing, at best some WSes admit to SOME details on confrontation day depending on what they believe the BS knows, at worse they react like your WH, admitting to nothing.

The next step I foresee is your WH going into damage control, basically admitting to the minimum possible amount of details from which he believes he can come back. Potentially he’ll admit to the ow who contacted you because by now he is wondering how you found out and where the vulnerability in his double life was and I assume ow did do some threatening in the background.

I think you’re doing amazingly well, keep going on the same path, one day at a time, see your attorney, assess your situation and let him sink or swim. He’s the only one who can prove if he’s capable of change or not.

Hugs!

UGH. I'm so sorry. That is some classic gaslighting he did on you. It sounds like you truly did an amazing job and you should be very pleased with yourself.

I know that his reaction makes the hurt even worse. I know you were hoping so hard that he would step up and take some accountability. I expect him to flip flop a lot in the next few days/weeks. Don't let him play the victim with anything; he was perfectly happy to be happy and never tell you any of this. He doesn't suddenly get to decide he's really a wounded little bird who needs to be saved.

Excellent work. Huge hug to you.

How do I know how to respond if you're not giving me specifics?"

Which means he was only ever going to cop to what you could prove. Ugh. I'm so sorry. From his POV, no doubt he's thinking that it's best not to confess to anything, but stonewalling just makes it worse, not better. This is NOT a court of law and his innocence is not presumed. THAT is the part he hasn't wrapped his mind around. The cheater freaks out and thinks as long as there's no proof, there's no problem. But the bottom line is that most people don't divorce on grounds these days, so proving adultery isn't the big ticket item. The big ticket item is whether or not your marriage, as it stands today and not as you wish it would be, is acceptable to you. If it's not, it doesn't matter whether or not you can show him the smoking gun. It only matters that you don't want him as your husband anymore.

In The Healing Library, you'll find info on "The 180". This is a technique originally designed by Michele Weiner Davis to deal with a spouse who's cheating or recalcitrant. Basically, it's stepping way back and hoping that they'll become curious and lonely enough to follow along. As a technique for saving marriages I don't care for it. But as a way of creating some emotional distance so you can break through your own enmeshment, I think it's a pretty good thing. You've been through a pretty nasty ordeal. You gave him two chances last night to change his tune and engage. I don't think I'd continue to put myself through that. I think I'd leave it with, "I don't have anything to say to you as long as you continue lying to me. Let me know if you change your mind." And then 180. If he tries to give you another load of bullshit, and he will, just repeat your mantra.

I know your whole world is just falling apart today, and believe me, we've all felt what you're feeling. It seems like the path ahead has disappeared in the mist and the future is gone. But you really will be okay. It's going to suck for awhile. It's going to be confusing and hard, but you'll get through it. Believe in yourself.

((big hugs))

I may need your help more than ever….

Blarg…. The vicious entitlement that reeks from that statement….. It’s like the smell lines off a skunk cartoon. It puts me in rage frame of mind, just as a paltry observer.

I’m so very sorry you had to endure that experience with him. You handled yourself like a champ. I am sure you are still a puddle on the floor but can you take a minute and pat yourself on the back. You got through one of the toughest experiences of your life. You didn’t try to control the outcome, you let him show who he was/is.

Fella was probably up all night trying to figure out what you know. Can you check the activity in his phone. I know he likes his apps but maybe he screwed up.

He is scared to death of exposure……. GOOD. Use that!

He tears your world to shreds, won’t admit anything and has the gall to plead for your help.

Did you record it? If so keep it in a safe space.

If he comes crawling ……. And says he’ll do ANYTHING……..get that phone and get a forensic analysis on it ASAP.

I’m sure he’s looking for a way out. Hold firm. He’s going to test all your defenses to get info.

Sending you hugs today.

Sigyn, yes to what everyone is telling you. I understand your amazement that he would take the convoluted route and not the straightforward one, but he is not operating from the same play book or value system as you. I wish I had half your intel, guidance and strength at my confrontation. The damage done in the deceit my WH strung out for a year and a half almost wrecked me. I still don't know what bottom is for him, nor do you with yours.

If he tries to communicate with you further, at the first lie, just stop him and say I have given you every chance to do the right and honorable thing and tell the truth, and yet you choose to continue to disrespect me with further deceit. I would never have guessed you could be this version of yourself but you have just shown me who you really are, which is a danger to me and my family. There is no room in my life for someone I cannot trust.

There are a lot of resources out there to help you through this horrible life passage, and the best advice I can give is don't try to hard to make sense of this, I've spent five years trying to decode the mystery of my multiverse marriage and there is no logic that applies, only the same stories we see here over and over. Your best gift to yourself is refusing to get caught up in further false realities. I told my WH he was welcome to any lifestyle choices he wanted, but none that drug me along unknowingly and unwillingly. I get a say in what kind of person and what kind of relationship I partner in, and he's proven an unworthy partner for me in all the ways that matter. In his little world, he kept the family intact, supported us and attended most of the important kids events, so he's a really good guy. That other secret stuff isn't in his equation of how he sees himself, and I suppose yours is reality impaired too.

The process of assimilating the life you thought you had with the one you discovered is slow and painful, but necessary. Once you are stabilized and through the worst of the shock, you can begin to find what you need to reintegrate into the life of your choosing. Stay strong, stay well, focus on your son, your health and pamper and indulge yourself in anyway that helps you. It's hard to look at it this way so soon after discovery, but you are on your own here. He is not on your team.

We are and we're pulling hard for you.

[This message edited by whatisloveanyway at 8:29 PM, Thursday, August 25th]

Wouldn't honesty be so much easier? Are there really people who will jump through hoop after hoop of flaming dogshit to deny and make excuses and lie and hide instead of just coming clean? Why make everyone travel for 50 miles in a tortured scribble of twists and turns when you could get to the same endpoint in 1 mile with a straight line and be done with it?

He needs to continue being the smartest one in the room. He needs to be the hero in his story.

You did so well confronting him and keeping the upper hand. It's like getting your mind pummeled by the relentless lying and stonewalling.

My husband came home with a hickey on his neck and said it was nothing. He came home with red lipstick stains on his mouth and told me he drank cherry soda before coming home. Never admitted anything.

There is going to be a lot of activity on your WH's part now. I imagine he may try to stop the leak by calling old GFs or he may start hiding money if he has not done that already. Maybe you should put a VAR in his room to try to keep in front of him.

You did well. It's unbelievable how strong you get when there's nothing left to lose.

Honesty is never easier when you are faced with owning the fact that you are a total POS.

Well said and spot-on truth, tushnurse.

You have done the worst thing he could experience.

You pulled his mask off and held a mirror in front of him and he was forced to see the thing he hates the most - his true self exposed.

All the denial is par for the course.

I had 100% red-handed evidence of my ex-wife’s separate adultery world and she simply denied, denied, denied, and denied more.

She instantly reverted to blaming me and being a victim of something she could never explain - didn’t matter, as long as she’s a victim.

He is not thinking about you, your child, your marriage, your family, or your pain.

He is thinking about how he can get through this with minimal damage to himself and his ego.

It sounds like you did very well in keeping yourself together.

Keep that up and again - never reveal your source of evidence, ever.

As far as reconciliation, his initial response was very telling in that he didn’t give a shit about your pain due to his extreme betrayal.

He went immediately to denial, damage-control, and blameshifting.

The ones, who when confronted, have an immediate "What have I done?!" and come-to-Jesus-type moment are the most likely suitable for reconciliation - and even then, it is an extremely long, hard and usually unsuccessful journey.

Life, with someone like this (like my ex), is tantamount to a prison sentence that will leave you a shell of your former self.

There is, trust me, a far better life without the narcissistic, sociopathic, selfish, dishonest, backstabbing world of shit you face with this person you are with right now.

Stay strong.

You're doing amazing. I am always in awe of any BS that can keep it together for days after their DDay to await confrontation. I had zero self-restraint and I pretty much lost it immediately, so well done you.

I would try not to engage with what is inevitably going to be a metric ton of crazy ass-saving shit coming your way. I would also caution you against further digging. You know everything you really need to know about your WS at this point and what you didn't know, was confirmed during your confrontation. He doesn't care about you, your feelings, your needs or just about anything--it's all him. And everything that comes next is going to underscore that. The fact that when confronted, his "go to" wrapping up thought was that he needed you to help him... JFC. What a dick. Never in what you described does he express concern for what this must be like for you. Not once. You sat there and cried and he just sat there in his own feelings. Ugh.

The long and short of it is that he thought he was never going to get caught. I don't know why these guys always think that they're the smartest people in the room, but they invariably do. But they are just you're run of the mill, arrogant, entitled, selfish douchebags.

I think once you start to take a step back from your M, detach and get some perspective, you will see his behavior more clearly. You already identified the corrosive response of DARVO. And slowly, you will start to put the pieces together or who he was all along. This stuff doesn't exist in a vacuum.

I'm also really glad that you've reached back out to your IC. That's going to be the best place for you to process this life changing event. Big hug. Be kind to yourself. Protect yourself and your child. Put yourself at the top of your list.

I said I've also spoken with attorneys and he was SHOCKED. Like he looked up from his lap like I'd just smacked him, I could actually SEE the blood drain out of his face!

"that was my money, too, and I didn't consent to paying for you to have sex with others" and this was the only thing I said that he was having a very intense reaction to that was almost going to result in him saying something. He really wanted to respond to that, I could see the words almost coming out and then he just sucked them back in.

I wonder what he's going to do to protect what he believes is his money.

There were so many people thinking of you yesterday.

You were amazing! The situation was FUBAR, but you were amazing.

Totally agree with ChamomileTea who encourages you to consider this approach:

"I don't have anything to say to you as long as you continue lying to me. Let me know if you change your mind." And then 180. If he tries to give you another load of bullshit, and he will, just repeat your mantra.

You've said as much as you need to say for now. You gave him ample opportunity to speak the truth.

Ball was in his court and he just wanted to pretend that there was no ball...or that he didn't know what a ball was...or he wanted to clutch the ball to his chest and wail, "Why MEEE???"

You deserve so much better.

I'm so sorry that your WH has done this to you but very proud of how you handled it.

You were wondering whether you should confront him with your knowledge of his cheater's site. Absolutely not!! It is an invaluable window into his true thoughts. If he's not back there already seeking advice on how to figure out exactly what you know and how to get you back in line, he may be back there at some point. It's an important reminder of his lack for shame and remorse through all this.

It's interesting that he mentioned your sister. Be sure to tell your sister not to talk to him about anything at all. He may call her to try to get information from her about what you know.

He may also be checking with his other women to see if any of them ratted on him.

As you have surmised, he's trying to figure out what you know so he can build a plausible lie around it. He probably has a lie that he kept in mind to explain the whores in case you ever discovered that. That's what he was contemplating telling you. It was probably some version of the unmet needs excuse, maybe with a side of sex addict.

Continue to refuse to give him any proof. The only person that needed proof was you and you have it.

Your strong urge to keep digging for information is a normal response to the trauma of this discovery. It's like your entire reality has been shattered. You're trying to find all the pieces and put them back together in a way that makes sense. But none of it makes sense.

There are two podcast episodes about betrayal trauma that really helped me understand this phenomena and my response to it. The original links are broken but if you search you can find them. They're from the the Addicted Mind podcast. Search for these titles:

Episode 21 Relational and Betrayal Trauma with Marnie Breecker – Part One
Episode 22 Relational and Betrayal Trauma with Marnie Breecker – Part Two

Best wishes.

You did so well. I would suggest just filing and hiring a forensic accountant to get back that money you are owed.

Do not tell him anything you know. If possible, do not engage with him at all. Protect yourself and your assets from him immediately. You no longer know who you are talking to and he clearly will use what you say against you. He is not on your team. Get your lawyer on your team and lean on your sister and counselor. I am so sorry. You are doing so great.

Your description of his responses was actually triggering (a word I don’t like to use often). My WH is a lying, manipulative, self-serving jerk who has never been able to be honest, face (or care about) what he has done to his family, or comprehend the reality of his own actions. He is an expert at lying to himself and convincing himself that he is the victim of everything and everyone. Everything you described him doing/saying in your confrontation could have been my WH.

you aren't even telling me what you think you've seen! How do I know how to respond if you're not giving me specifics?"

He could always just tell the truth. The truth isn’t dependent on "what you think you’ve seen." This is an easy gaslighting, blameshifting manipulative technique. There isn’t what you actually know—there’s only what you "think you’ve seen." And since you’re obviously not reliable (hormonal, irrational, accusatory), you shouldn’t trust yourself.

Don’t get sucked into questioning yourself. He could just tell the truth. It isn’t that he CAN’T. It’s that he WON’T. The truth isn’t dependent on what you know. It’s just the truth. He’s the only one who has it. But he’s not going to give it to you. I’m sorry to say that you will likely never get it.

And then he said something like look, let's sleep on this and then talk about it again tomorrow, I need to get my thoughts in order, etc etc.

Translation: I need some time to scrub records, clean my phone, and destroy as much of the trail as possible. Trust me—he spent the day doing exactly that. It will be much harder now to get more information, and from experience I can tell you that he will never tell you anything that you don’t know about. He won’t give you one ounce more than he absolutely has to.

. "I may need your help more than ever"

Nope, nope, nope, nope. The night that I confronted my WH, he tried telling me that I had saved him. This is just the height of entitlement, selfishness, and fuckery. I told him that I was not in that business anymore, and I officially quit that job. He did not include you in making these decisions, and you have ZERO responsibility to help him. More than that: you CAN’T help him with this. If you try to save him from himself, you will just enable him to continue manipulating you and blaming you and everyone else in the world for him being messed up. He’s on his own for this one. You’ll need all your energy to help yourself and your son.

The worst of this shit is when the person who destroyed your world, your family, your security, makes HIMSELF the victim that needs help and feels sorry for HIMSELF when he has devastated the people who trusted and loved him most.

He is clearly broken. The level of bullshit, manipulation, lying, blameshifting, gaslighting, and self pity that he pulled out of his hat in an INSTANT without any difficulty shows how long he’s been developing these techniques. This level of mastery doesn’t just pop up out of nothing.

Please don’t let yourself forget that, in the moment of greatest crisis for his wife, partner, and love, THIS is the behavior that he chose. THIS is who he is. The real him. I also asked my WH who he was on D-day. He acted like he didn’t know either. But he was the ONLY one who knew what he’d been doing.

I told him he fucked sex workers while I was pregnant, he put me and our child in danger.

This one. Keep thinking about this one. Trust me—over time, you’re going to feel more and more enraged about the truth of this. That rage will help inoculate you against feeling sorry for him. Also. . .

I said I've also spoken with attorneys and he was SHOCKED. Like he looked up from his lap like I'd just smacked him, I could actually SEE the blood drain out of his face! He asked if I was serious.

Of everything you said, his biggest reaction was to the fact that you actually saw an attorney and your comment about him spending marital funds on sex workers. His sense of entitlement and arrogance was so high that he couldn’t believe that he couldn’t control you. This is very common. Waywards of this type are convinced that they can control everyone. They are just that good at deceit and manipulation. My WH had actually expressed a weird kind of what I can only call pride that he was able to manipulate and control people through deception. He was PISSED when those techniques stopped working on me and, like your WH, he lashed out in especially mean and despicable ways trying to regain control and make me doubt myself.

I can’t give you much hope that he will be R material from my experience. As I said, he’s been at all of this horrific behavior for a LONG time. All of these habits are so ingrained he thinks they’re normal and natural. He probably doesn’t recognize the truth anymore. He has had to buy a lot of idiotic rationalizations and bullshit to be able to convince himself that what he is doing is justified and okay.

The "only lying by omission" is especially challenging because he has convinced himself that this isn’t lying. A close second: only answering the question that was asked. When I found one piece of evidence, I at first thought that the AP had sent it to my WH. He let me believe that for almost 2 years when I happened to look at it again and realized that he had actually sent it to her. When I confronted him, he admitted it but blamed me since I hadn’t ASKED him if he had sent it. It was MY error to assume that she had sent it.

You are doing so well. And we also all know that it’s horrific and unbelievably painful and a million other things. You’re getting such great advice here. One piece I’d second is that you refuse to continue any conversation that is anything but him telling you the truth. There is NO point in talking about anything else with him. If you allow it, he will continue to fuck with your mind and try to make you doubt yourself. He will say horribly cruel things designed to try to make you feel guilty and responsible and ultimately weaken you. It will do unbelievable damage to you. Ask me how I know.

Sending you huge hugs of sympathy and strength.

I hope you're doing as well as you can right now and that the therapist was able to help tonight. We're all thinking of you and sending you virtual hugs. As hard as is to believe you did great! One step at a time from here.....

Sigyn, realize that there was no scenario where things would have been anything other than awful. So take to heart the many commenters who are rightly saying you did incredibly well under the circumstances. Here are my quick bullet thoughts:

1. I am going to signal boost ChamomileTea's line to use:

"I don't have anything to say to you as long as you continue lying to me. Let me know if you change your mind."

Say little. Don't get cajoled into revealing more of what you know, or their sources. Remember that omissions and trickle truths are lies. Silence and stonewalling are lies. Scrubbing of evidence (which he now has had plentiful time to do and will likely say he did because he didn't want to cause you further pain or for your to take the wrong way) is lying. From what you've shared, you have more than enough evidence to know the scope of his deception is huge.

2. Speaking of evidence, if you haven't done so, make multiple copies and save the evidence you've gathered in multiple spots, both online and offline. Give your sister a usb drive to hold. Open a PO box or safety deposit box and put a copy there. Open a NEW email/cloud account using a password unrelated to any old password, and save a digital copy there. There have been many, many stories of WPs going in and scrubbing BP's devices in their attempts to deny. In the off chance that he's done that (it sounds unlikely as you have physically separated yourself within the house) take that act for the absolute scummy admission of guilt that it is.

3. It is natural to want answers, but (gently) I would ask you to reflect on what you can truly believe coming from your H. When it comes to details of his transgressions, he may reveal some things. But rest assured that it will never be the full truth. It will almost certainly be a minimization or trickle truth. If he reveals something that you don't already know and "hurts" his position, you might give some credence to it, as for the most part he has little reason to say he committed transgressions if he didn't. However, he has plenty of reason to say he didn't do something when he did, or only admit to a fraction of what he did do. I hope you have your sodium in check, because you need to take everything he says with massive grains of salt.

On the flip side, you've made clear that you desperately want to know a deeper, thornier question:

"Who are you?? Please tell me who I'm married to."

Again, this is natural. But please ask yourself: what are the chances that anything he says in this regard will be something you can trust? I would submit that there is no way to put any stock in what he says in response to this type of question. There could be glimmers of truth, or they could be complete manipulative fabrications. Ultimately, the answer to that question will not come from his mouth, but from you reflecting on his long behavior, learning more about what humans are capable of, and letting go of your previous understanding of who he is.

4. Implement the 180 to give yourself the necessary distance to see your situation for what it is. Listen to his actions, not his words. You are very emotionally vulnerable right now, as anyone would be. This is going to be a long journey, no matter what. Fight the urge to move fast just to get it (the pain) over with. Fight the urge to accept a story because you want to believe it vs. what the facts/actions tell you. Go slow. Breathe. You will make it through.