SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Since my H doesn't "remember " how his A started, I wonder if any of you can tell me about them. My Hs A was 3 months. He can't tell me when it started. He can't tell me how it went from platonic to lovers. He can't tell me how often they talked. He can't describe how he felt during his A. I know very little about the extent of his A. I have begged for the truth to these questions. He doesn't remember or he don't know. I don't believe him and I am loosing hope that I will ever know the full truth of his A.

He's lying. He knows very well when things happened. He's trying to minimize the amount of damage.

I'm older so let me just say this. It's been over 40 years since I had my first girlfriend and I remember specifically the day I asked her out and I remember the first time I kissed her. I'm SURE you are the same way, you remember all the "Firsts".

Now he cheated, he very well knows what happened and when. Don't let him minimize the issue.

I'm only 2 months from D-Day, so I'm hardly ready to offer anyone else advice. But, I've gotten some of the same responses from my WH. When I ask questions, I get a lot of "I don't know what I was thinking." "I can't remember what was discussed." "I wasn't thinking at all." I called BS. Of course he was thinking. Sneaking around and hiding a 2-year affair took a lot of thought, a lot of discussion and a lot of planning. He can't tell me he wasn't thinking. All he did was think about his next meeting with her, which lies to tell me this time, etc. Each time there was a situation where the house would be empty, he would start plotting to have her come over. Each time I went out of town, he thought about how he could use the time to hook up with her. He was probably thinking more during those two years than he ever had in his entire life. I simply don't buy the, "I wasn't thinking" or "I don't remember" or "I don't know" excuses.

I'm learning to frame my questions in different ways. I have to ensure I am asking specific, open-ended questions that can only be interpreted in they way I intend. Otherwise, he will get stuck on one specific word and use it as a way to skirt around the actual questions. I've had to use this method of communication with him for years. A simple request like, "Would you please take out the garbage?" would somehow turn into a fight. He would say, "I didn't know it was full." I would say, "I didn't expect you to know it was full. I'm telling you now that it's full and asking if you would please take it out." He would say, "Well did you push it down to make more room?" I would say, "Yes, I did. But it's still about to over-flow." He would say, "Well I'm going to collect all the garbage in the house tonight before I put the cans out, so I'll do it then." and I would say, "But I'm about to cook dinner and it's hard when the garbage is over-flowing. Never mind, I'll do it myself!" And he would say, "OK! Fine! I'll do it! Why are you so upset?" Um, I'm upset because I asked you to please do a simple task and it had to become a huge deal." He would say, "But I said I would do it, didn't I?" I would say, "Yeah, after a bunch of excuses and back and forth that just wasn't necessary." So his take-away would be that I'm always criticizing him and he can't do anything right. My take-away is that I shouldn't count on him for anything and should just do things myself to avoid unpleasant interactions. So I would do that for awhile, then feel resentful that I was doing everything myself, then I would spend 20 minutes wording my question before I get up the courage to ask it again. "Hey, I'm not sure if you happened to notice the garbage, and I know that you're going to take it all out tonight, but it's getting awfully full and I'm about to start dinner and it would be really helpful if you could please take it out to the can." Did that work? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. We could very well end up in the same ridiculous loop. Honestly, communicating with this man about the simplest of things can be exhausting. Since D-Day, he's opened up about what he "hears" when I ask him simple questions. Rather than hearing a simple request to take out the garbage and no matter how nicely I ask, he would hear, "Why haven't you noticed the garbage is full and why haven't you taken it out yet you stupid idiot?" So that's what he would hear. That's how he would take it no matter now nicely or constructively I asked. He says it's not a me problem. It's a him problem. He takes everything as criticism. So when I ask a question about the A, his mind twists it around, he gets anxious, he worries about giving the "right" answer (what I want to hear vs. just telling the truth) and it's easier to just say he forgot or he doesn't know. At least he's aware of this and can address it with his IC.

So, my only advice would be to plan how to ask the question so his mind can process exactly what you want to know. Then, use a technique I learned in my college journalism classes. Wait silently for the answer. Don't interject another question or comment. Just look at him silently and let him talk. Most people can't handle silence and will start talking to fill it in. Maybe he'll start talking and the truth will slip out.

Well he is lying. He knows how it started.

They almost all start as friends. You chat and laugh with someone you are attracted too.

You both want it. The tension / thinking and fantasizing build up until somebody makes the first move.

So both are guilty as both were stoking that fire and driving toward the cliff not away from it. "No I should not hop in that car" "No I should not give them my phone number" "no I should not accept that friends request and if I do and they start having a personnel conversation I need to delete and block them immediately".

That’s why the book "not just friends" is one of the most widely distributed book. The reality is you can’t be friends with someone your attracted too. You can never meet for coffee, ride together, talk on the phone, chat in anyway on social media hang out in the break room. That’s just the reality of you want to protect the relationship.

I could rant about all the nuances of opposite sex friends. Obviously its a little more complicated But hopefully that starts this conversation on the right foot.

Confused282 has nailed it.

My H met his last OW in a bar. Innocent. He then hired her to work for him. Innocent (to me). But looking back he was interested. They worked remote but would talk often.

Then there was the "ask". She asks him to look at a (bogus) business plan of hers for a business. They both shared a common hobby and could discuss it. Next thing you know - 💥- Affair. Divorce in the works.

You get the idea. Complete mid life crisis affair.

And yes LivingGrief - unless your H has cognitive issues that are diagnosed he is lying b/c he knows exactly how the affair started.

They almost all start as friends. You chat and laugh with someone you are attracted too.

You both want it. The tension / thinking and fantasizing build up until somebody makes the first move.

This is exactly how A's start and definitely recommend reading "Not Just Friends."

Your WS is using that as a bluff. I hope he comes clean soon because the more time spent TTing (trickle truthing) it ebbs away on how you feel towards him and the M and whether R is worth it.

Your husband is lying, and that is the only truth. He doesn't remember is a reasonable excuse b/c he doesnt want to tell you. I bet you he'd be able to recite to the minute he first kissed the AP, when they first had sex..... if she was asking him. But to you, of course he doesnt remember.

He will continue to give you what you accept. The moment you stop accepting his bullshit, and put him on defense he will change his tune. If you're already to accept R, than you're letting him off the hook too easy.

Demand answers, a timeline and anything else you want to know as part of your condition for reconciliation. Until you make it know that that's is the only way forward, and mean it, he will continue to lie and gaslight you.

Take his phone, and try fonedr, or some other way of getting old text and emails. you will get plenty more, he's just not willing to tell you. And you have to ask yourself, why continue on with someone whose cheated on you and will continue to lie to you. You deserve better. And until you believe that, he'll continue to treat you as second rate.

Hi living,

I thought I remembered you. I saw your last post an re-read some of your old post.

They locked your other recent post so I will use this one.

Please don’t think I’m trying to hurt you. I don’t know you but I don’t want anybody in pain you need to hear hard truth and tough love.

This post is not really applicable to you. Your husband did not find himself in a situation where feelings overwhelmed his judgment.

Your husband is a serial cheater and a serial liar. You are in an abusive toxic relationship with a terrible human being.

He is actively and aggressively trying to cheat on you constantly. He is using you.

He aggressively pursued your friends wife and she was open to it. I would guess your husband is good looking and charismatic. He is definitely aggressive which we’ll get to.

This is one big reason you are stuck in an abusive relationship. You need to switch your focus on fixing the relationship to researching how women get addicted to abusive relationships. See if this cycle resembles your dynamic in any way.

I bet if you made him take a polygraph you would discover even more affairs. I would bet money.

In fact 2 of your stories perfectly explain how affairs can occur.

One the text to your good girl friend about how great her ass looked. He was clearly making a very bold aggressive pass to your friend. Now she rejected him but did not tell you because she knew you would not leave him and you would very likely end your friendship with her. We can argue if she handled things correctly but she had at least some boundaries. I would bet she kept some distance from him after wards unless you have discovered something new. The way she shut it down signaled to him that she was not Interested and might tell on him if he continued. So he stopped. If she had not shut that down immediately it would have gotten worse real fast.

Now let’s look at the affair you caught. I guarantee he did the same thing to your friends wife. She probably thought he was cute and liked him and found him funny. Essentially she found him attractive. When he made the bold aggressive move she did not want to tell her husband as it would have caused major problems and ended the friendship between you all. Also she liked it to some degree. But because she did not blow it up, she kept the secret hidden. And while she kept the dirty secret hidden she was thinking about it and him. This increased her attraction to him. Since she did not blow it up or shut it down immediately like your friend did he took it as a sign that she was open.

He then very likely began pursuing her more and the more things that happened flirting, first kiss get her further down the rabbit hole and then she could not tell her husband as it would possibly lead to divorce. So the cycle continued secrets, anxiety, thinking, fantasizing, these created a powerful cocktail that seduced the wife.

It is actually a very similar feelings cocktail that trap many women in abusive toxic relationships.

The fear, worry, obsessing mixed with orgasms and moments of joy are intoxicating.

Look at just these two stories. Openly trying to seduce your good friend (I was just joking my ass) and sleeping with his friends wife. Mixed together These are elite terrible behaviors even in this world of cheaters.

If it was just the affair with the friends wife maybe it was bad boundaries and a one time temporary insanity of feelings that got out of control but two people in your inner circle? Willing to destroy his friend ship with his own friend, his friend marriage and your close friend ship also betraying you both times. That’s a bad sign.

Also the lying "it was the Xanax" yea bull s@&t.

I hope that I am wrong but you are looking for answers and many of your post are questioning your own worth. But there is nothing wrong with you except your picker.

You picked a bad partner. That’s it.

Please keep posting and the other pros can help I’m just not sure if all these individual post about specific topics will help you.

If you truly have a very broken person (which seems very obvious to me) (but I am just one guy with an opinion) that is the real question.

If I am correct then there is nothing about you that needs to be fixed (except that picker) there is no deep analysis of individual behaviors. You need to get out immediately and implement no contact immediately and forever. The type of guy I think he is will stay in your life forever and will do nothing but harm.

I truly hope for the best for you. I hope I’m wrong and he learned the error of his ways but I would actually bet money that I am right. And I did not re read all your post right now but I did read them all at one point and I have consistently thought the same thing again and again.

Judging from your post I think deep down you know that too.

Like I said I am one guy with an opinion but I wish you all the best and I hope you find true happiness.

Mother: "Why did you pull your sister's hair?"

Child: "I don't know."

Translation: "Well, my sister is really annoying so I wanted to hurt her a little, and usually you don't punish me for it, so I figured it was worth doing."

Betrayed Spouse: "Why did you have an affair?"

Cheater Spouse: "I don't know."

Translation: "Well, even though I promised to be faithful at the wedding, I was never really in love with you, so deep down inside I don't feel like I have to be faithful to you. I'm also tired of having sex with just you and want to do it with someone else. I'm not really into monogamy. Plus, I can tell you really value being married to me, so no matter what I do, you're probably going to stick around and provide me the benefits of being married. So I figured it was worth doing."

"I don't know" is a lie. Your husband remembers courting his AP, just as much as he remembers courting you. He knows what he did and why he did it.

[This message edited by morningglory at 4:31 AM, Thursday, May 12th]

@ FireandWater. Your message is so relatable. I managed to get my WH to tell me that when I ask him to do things like what you asked, he would feel "put upon" as if I was criticising him and I used to try different ways, tones to say things. Again, he would do it when he was ready and I learnt to just leave it unless it was really pressing. After DDs, he was a bit better and that was when he gave me the put upon answer. And at the same time, when I had cancer, operations, and he would say "ask for help", I would but then he would do it when he wanted or was inconsistent so I just would stop. For me, this stuff connected with the affairs wbecause he justified that he had a partner who would "criticise" (because OMG I asked him to do something) and needed attention from other women who would see how awesome he was.
To answer the question though, for most of the affairs sex workers, my WH sought them out - paid for Ashley Madison even and he is super stingy. But for the first affair back in 1991 (which he finally admitted in 2017), it was the case of him being overseas with a group of students and one of the women apparently "manipulated" him to having sex. I pulled that through my bullshit comb as when I went over to stay with my then 3 year old, my gut and everything else knew someting was going on. He later admittedhe got drunk with her and stayed at the place she was staying and had sex. Now he outrighted lied to me when I noticed something between him and I was very very blunt. He also saw her when we got back home even though I asked him not to. Now looking at it, he was so selfcentred and even ignored our 3 year old when we were staying at the island he was doing a teaching practise on. He was also as the only male teacher trainee, getting lots of attention from the other women teacher trainees and it so fed his ego. I wish I had known all the stuff I know now and dealt with it way back then. But as I said, all the other affairs were deliberate. Personally I think he also pursued this relationship with this women and knew exactly why it happened and how it started. It started way before the sex, but with him thinking it was ok to be "close" to her. He also had a long standing secret email EA with a friend that I had also felt uncomfortable about when I met her, just felt that she fancied my WH and he did not disagree (which meant I was right), so I said I felt uncomfortable and wouldn't keep a friendship with a guy if I knew that they wanted more. However, he continued with his secret email account for a number of years and even met up. When I found this account, I read the emails and they were platonic but again it was the secrecy and lies and attitude and maybe there was more. He blamed me saying he just wanted to be friends with her as if it was my problem. But the fact is, he was sneaky and hid this affair and knew it was wrong and so did she. My issue with him still which is why we are living in the same place but separated, is that he lied to me again about something that happened at work last year (because he was ashamed and to protect himself) and only owned up because he had to as he wasn't going to work and couldn't keep saying it was because he was sick. He broke my ground rules of being upfront and honest - no lies. Instead of at least owning that he lied no excuse and was contrite/remorseful, he justified it, and projected the reason onto me with the most pathetic excuse ever. And when I told him I was pissed about this, he then said he was trying to protect me which made me more angry. So he is still broken as far as I am concerned and not a safe partner for me. He is going to a better IC now and that is his job to fix him if he wants to be fixed. Sorry that was a bit of a rant. I firmly believe that wS know how and when they crossed the line into their secretive life and infidelity. It was a choice.

He can't tell me when it started. He can't tell me how it went from platonic to lovers. He can't tell me how often they talked. He can't describe how he felt during his A. I know very little about the extent of his A. I have begged for the truth to these questions. He doesn't remember or he don't know.

Living,

This is not the real problem. Do not focus on the above from this current angle.

The real question that you need to ask yourself is what is he DOING to try to find the answers? THAT is what will show if your husband cares or not.

They start with a decision.

At some point he DECIDED that the friendship should progress to the next level. It might be when he reached for her hand, or it might be when she leaned in for a kiss. At each point HE had the ability to DECIDE not to or to back out. He DECIDED to carry on.

This decision factor is key for accountability. If you start an affair because "it just happened" or "I don't know..." then there is NO WAY to prevent it from just happening again, or not knowing again why you are in a strange bed with a new partner that's not your spouse.

To me, when a question is answered with "I don’t know". It really means "please shut the hell up".

Some cheaters are arrogant and seek out the (affairs). So they know how and why the affair occurred.

Others are just a willing participant in the affair, si they too know how the affair started and why.

It all comes down to selfishness.

This thread has given me some ideas:

The next time my wife says "I don't know" or "I don't remember", I'm going to follow up by asking, "Do you wish that you could remember?" "Do you really wish that you could give me that answer?" If she says yes then, "Okay, so what are going to do? How can you help me find that answer?"

I'll try to report back.

My H had his PA while working alone overseas. He sought out strangers to have NSA sex with. He wanted to fulfill a fantasy of USING a woman. Only ONE woman agreed to this...but that was all that was needed. My H's PA was called an opportunistic A from what I have read when I did research on different types of A's. I later found out that my H had been having OA's for almost 2 years before his PA. It started out in chat rooms...then webcamming...etc. It was like an addiction...he kept wanting MORE.

I don't believe him and I am loosing hope that I will ever know the full truth of his A.

Gently...you KNOW he isn't telling the truth. What is your PLAN for this? Is this something you are willing to keep rugsweeping? Can you stay with him knowing he refuses to help you heal by telling you the truth?

He made his CHOICE. But YOU have choices as well Dear Lady . Whatever CHOICE helps YOU to heal will never be a bad one. You CAN heal without knowing the full truth...I did it from my 1st M. But I divorced him and moved on. We can't change anyone but ourselves. Maybe you need to start asking YOU some questions and see what you are willing to do .

There is a saying on here that rang true for ME...you have to be willing to LOSE the M in order to SAVE it. I learned from my 1st M that the "pick me dance" NEVER works. NEVER. My 2nd H was given a chance at R...but ONLY if he would HELP me to HEAL. He readily agreed to it...but he had no idea how ROUGH this was going to be. He TRIED to minimize things...you know...because he didn't want to hurt me . But I was stronger in THIS situation...and I was ready to LEAVE him when my GUT told me I was being lied to. That was a great incentive for my H to NOT lie to me.

What worked for ME may not be the same thing for you. Only YOU can decide your path in your life . The good thing about these paths is that we can always change direction .

My XWH has such piss-poor personal boundaries that he didn't know exactly when the EA started prior to the PA. If you think of the windows and walls from Not Just Friends, he was never careful about keeping our M protected.

For the timeline I asked him to complete, I didn't tell him that I did one, too. When I asked him to go over his, I then went over mine. He didn't realize how quickly and early he had slipped into the EA. A little eye-opening for him, but didn't stop him from the next time.

Or, it would probably be more accurate to say he didn't really care.

He can't tell me when it started. He can't tell me how it went from platonic to lovers. He can't tell me how often they talked. He can't describe how he felt during his A.

Bullshit. He doesn't want to tell you for his own selfish reasons. Like avoiding consequences of his failure to be faithful.

The simple truth he did because he could and it made him feel good. How it started was with some flirtation that felt good. It kept going because no one, including himself and the AP, stopped him. What you are asking if for him to be truthful and honest which is the bare minimum for R. If he sticks to this, you have nothing to work with and it is in your best interest to end the relationship as quickly as possible.

Connect the dots with your previous post like Confused282 and I agree with her conclusion. Retract what I said about if he answers your questions. This is who he is. He is, and will be, always trolling for APs. You deserve so much better than him. Stop letting your loyalty to him keep you from finding that better person. He certainly isn't going to be that loyal to you.

[This message edited by grubs at 4:59 PM, Thursday, May 12th]

First, as others have said, your WH is lying to you. Think back to the some of the most exciting, romantic, titillating events events of your life and consider how well you remember them. That's how well he remembers those events in his A.

Ok, people differ somewhat. He may not remember specific dates. But if he wants to analyze his memories and ask himself some questions he can narrow it down. Was it Fall or Winter? Was it before Thanksgiving or after? How long was it between event A and event B. This requires a lot of uncomfortable exploration of his memory and he's just not willing to do it.

Conversations? Again, people differ. But he probably remembers the things that felt really good and the things that felt really bad.

Some memories seem inaccessible until a song, a sound, a smell, or some other trigger will bring them back unbidden. I've asked my FWW to share those with my when they occur to her because they can appear and fade again almost as quickly.

As to how it starts, my FWW's seems typical. She posted this about it years ago.

"At first we just chatted in a public chat room. Then we'd occasionally privately chat (nothing flirtatious, just not open.) Then it got flirty. I didn't stop it. Then he would send emails, and I responded... and still we chatted... and it got more personal and full of "what-ifs." After several months of this, OP told me he loved me."

Of course this was a lie. She didn't just fail to stop the flirting. She participated and encouraged it to become more intense and explicit.

I do think this reflects the major stages of an EA. At first it's public and mostly harmless. But as they start to share more personal thoughts and feelings a feeling of intimacy develops. When that intimacy creates a desire to take it someplace private (even "private" in the sense of a public place where nobody knows them) they've crossed the line into something inappropriate and I think they know that in their gut.

But the thrill of breaking boundaries may just accelerate things. Absent very strong boundaries, this level of intimacy between an opposite sex couples is going to create some level of sexual chemistry. Flirtation develops and things grow from there.

My wife always referred to this as a "slippery slope." As long as everything is confined to venues and activities that fit within their routine I can see that this is a slippery slope. Animal attraction and biology are pushing you in the direction it wants things to go. But as soon as secrecy enters the picture, it's no longer a slippery slope. It's a lot of work - a hard uphill climb to something they want badly enough to put a lot of effort in.

Livingingrief, you want answers because you're recovering from a trauma. You're trying to make sense of a world that has been turned upside down. This desire to orient yourself to the truth never goes away. If you rug sweep this as your WH wants you to you may find yourself like me - back here after 18 years looking for these same answers.

If he's not remorseful enough to learn the skills necessary to give you the truth then he may not be worth all the grief that you're going through and that which lies ahead.

Confused282,

I agree with most things you said. Both of these incidents happened within a 6 month span. Before this, my H and I were together 6 years and he has NEVER done or said anything inappropriate to any woman like that. Even my best friend ( the girl he texted) used to tell me how happy she was for me that i found a good man. She said the day he texted her that, she was SHOCKED. She said she never would have expected him to say that to her because he has always been a gentleman and very polite. She also said he has never done anything like this to her in the past. My H still claims that he wasn't trying to get in her pants and that at the time when he sent her the messages, he truly thought it was a funny joke but when he realized she didn't find it funny, he felt stupid. I dont believe that but he still sticks by his story that he wasn't trying to get her to betray me. What I dont understand is, he knew she was my best friend, he had to have known she was going to tell me so why did he do it? Why would he tell her that when he knew she would rat him out ( even though she didnt), he still had to have assumed she would say something to me. She did stop coming over after that.
Now when it comes to his affair, the only things he has told me was she was the one who started it all. He said she would flirt with him and he would just basically think to himself that it was nothing. He says that one day he walked outside and she was on her porch and he received a message that said "hey sexy" and that's how it was started. Everything you said in your above message seems true but he said she was the one who was pushing it and initiating contact. I dont know what to believe but based on the message to my best friend, it's hard not to believe your version of events. I don't think I will ever get the full truth because of his shame or his self-centered ways he trys to protect himself.
Before this happened, everyone had such a good opinion of my H. Everyone was beyond shocked that this happened. It was so out of character for him. It took me a good month to get out of the shock stage after I found out because of how shocked I was. I think I may now do a polygraph with him if he keeps telling me he can't " remember ". This will be my last try and if this doesn't help or if he doesn't come clean then I have promised myself that I will walk away from this relationship.
Oh and my H is handsome but he's also average. I don't mean to sound full of myself but he knew he got lucky when he got me. I remember his friends asking him how did he get me? Truthfully, I am out of his league. The main reason I fell for him was the way he treated me. He is handsome but thats not the reason I fell for him. His AP is not cute at all!!! When they say affair down....they aren't lying. I cant even understand how he was even attracted to her(he says he isn't lol). Knowing that I am better on every level than his AP doesn't make me feel better though. It actually makes me feel more insecure that he would risk his beautiful W for a sleeze ball!! I have set a boundary and I am going to stick with it. Either the truth will be told or I am gone!!!

What I dont understand is, he knew she was my best friend, he had to have known she was going to tell me so why did he do it?

He was testing her hoping she would take the bait, but if not, he could apologize and explain it away.

Most A’s start at the top of a slippery slope, the WS flirts with the edge, they think they are on safe footing but eventually they jump in. They try to keep one foot in and one foot out, but it never works.