SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

She just insists on the idea of being seriously emotionally involved with zero sexual attraction or intention - and this is the conflict of this season.

You're convinced that she is lying about that. Moving forward recall that, at its core, lying is an intentional choice to deceive by actively withholding truth in some form.

I get why you feel she isn't being honest with you about it. Seriously, practically every single BS here has been told by their WS that they "didn't intend for things to go that far" and a lot of us had to have a real hard talk with ourselves about the truth of that. And while there's room for some people do genuinely believe that, it's more often than not that WS's are seeking a supply of kibbles which becomes something more serious than intended it become. Truthfully, a lot of WS's are not honest with themselves using cognitive dissonance of some kind to ensure they're protected from being the bad guy in their own story.

I'm not saying your wife is lying to you or not. But I think you should maybe consider that she's drinking her own koolaid and really believes that she wouldn't have acted sexually. That she's not choosing to lie but has become the poster child for cognitive dissonance. Sure, to everyone here there's a ZERO PERCENT CHANCE that she wouldn't have gotten physical with him while with him for five days, but she never did get to that point and in her head she may have convinced herself that she just wanted kibbles. Today I am saying I would never cheat on my wife but I dunno....I've also never been inside of an opportunity to cheat with a make-believe person who pressed all of my buttons (emotionally, physically, egotistically, monetarily, benefitting fame/profession, etc.) to perfection while also having any/all the excuses people use to cheat all going on simultaneous to being alone with said person/circumstance. Currently, I am confident I won't cheat though and I'm not so haughty as to believe I could put myself in that situation and remain faithful. I'm not drinking that kool aid. So I avoid things like booking five day trips with people who may be able to press all my buttons and trade my M for temporary gratification. <<<----- That right there is, IMHO, the biggest difference in loyal spouses and cheaters. Loyal spouses avoid dangerous situations like a plague and cheaters lack the humility necessary to recognize the danger.

For all the BS's whose WS's did have a PA, we can rightly tell our WS's how they were wrong about them thinking "it wouldn't get physical" and the WS's can own it by looking at the facts and accepting that it was impossible that the steps they were taking wouldn't lead to a PA....because it did. The proof is in the pudding. Your W doesn't have that unfortunate "luxury". She may still live in the lala land most WS's live in when they were telling themselves "it won't get physical" because she's not experienced the reality of what was definitely going to happen had she met with him. Quite frankly, even if it's been 14 years that's a very dangerous place for you to be in because she is still aloof to how dangerous what she was doing really was.

My .02 is that she isn't lying to you. She's being dishonest with herself and then to you. As kindly as I can type this: she's foolish enough to believe what she's saying.

[This message edited by NotMyFirstRodeo at 6:33 PM, Thursday, April 28th]

I am treated for PTSD but PTSD does not have good treatment options. Not saying nothing works but a reasonable relief is not common. The main issue with PTSD is the trigger and I am living with the trigger.

Have you read Bessel van der Kolk's The Body Keeps Score? He mentions a few good treatments in it. I have tried EMDR myself and found it quite helpful. Further, I did quite well with Meditation/Mindfulness, albeit with alternative techniques like auditory meditation and adult coloring. My PTSD was pretty bad and so was my fWH's cheating; a nearly year-long binge with multiple female partners and varying degrees of emotional intensity. But I've recovered in five years' time. I think my success has been largely due to van der Kolk's book. Well, that and my own willingness to take full responsibility for my emotional well-being regardless of what my fWH was doing.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:58 PM, Thursday, April 28th]

Mr. Rodeo: you hit the nail on the head. I am with you 100%. The problem is I have believed that I could make her see this.

Again, the truth does not matter in the sense that details, the extent of activities, or physical relationships do not make a big difference other than the "bargaining" part of the grieving.

In my opinion, affairs and even falling in love (at least in our culture) are personality traits. Most men who frequent brothels do look for an emotional connection or satisfaction. Although I am not part of the dating culture, I am sure one can find an attraction, chemistry, and a weekend of great love only to find someone else next week.

A temptation can be forgiven, but dishonesty is challenging to live with.

For example, last time we talked in peace, she told me, "listen... I fell in love with him. Doesn't that hurt you more than what I did with him on the phone or what I would have done in the hotel room?"

The more I listen to you guys, and the more I think it through, she has lied consistently from the beginning. Yet - it is understandable. Almost every single detail was discovered, not revealed. I understand that too. Meanwhile, she also volunteered information at times.

The problem is her habitual lying, minimization, gaslighting, or believing that she was a victim. In her mind, the love at 15 was sincere (without even meeting him once), but her parents took that away, and she was excited (righteous) to take it back. Even then, she fell for his tricks (a common theme in India). She saved him because she made him heartbroken, and he became mental, so the cause was noble. She lost her mind and was a different person who went all the way and decided to leave the family (serve them as a maid) and take care of her love for the rest of his life. "What can I do? I went coo-coo."
She highlights and talks about all the dilemmas she faced when proceeding with the affair. I felt bad doing it, so I am not a bad person.
For example, she says she met him (once when we visited India, she found a way to meet him in an ice cream shop) and realized that he was fat and relatively unsophisticated, so she knew she did not want to sleep with him. But, she cried her heart out when she came back to the USA because she may not see him again.

Many WS say this: "I had his phone number for five years, but I did not contact him," and they are proud of their self-control. Here lies the problem of dishonesty and a lack of self-awareness. The cognitive dissonance or denial is a defense mechanism to make her feel less harmful. But it is killing me.

It is a lot of fun to be in an affair, but we need to handle the guilt.

It is hard for me to believe that she does not understand what is hurting me (again, not the truth or details, but honesty and repentance). She may not have the psychological sophistication to understand the dissonance, or her defenses are so strong she can not even see the truth herself. Or, she is just cruel and does not care that I suffer. She maintains a carefully curated image of this pious girl who does not look at you with menace. Those in the family or friends who know about the affair sincerely believe she was stalked and fell for a psychopath.

My best guess is that she has something else that she wants to protect. It may be something silly or may not even bother me, or I would laugh if I hear it, but she thinks it is sacrosanct. No idea what it is. I am not suspecting anything. It is just a feeling and I do not have evidence and I am not looking.
I am over the affair. I am almost there with the marriage. It might sound stupid, but I never once considered separation. I would have done it if she said she could not live without him. I held a clear conviction that we both love each other. I believed she was stupid, clueless (fell for a manipulating psychopath) and we will be fine. I thought I could fix it. We did find a resurgence in our love and commitment.

However, the lack of honesty and her way of thinking (I was forced or I had no choice or I thought I was...) when it comes to any shortcoming in her life - was a problem long before the affair. She has low self-esteem and is very short-tempered (before the affair) and I am (seen as) the opposite. Personalities vary and some differences are often good. But, a lack of honesty is tough. I mean honesty in simple things. If we were dating, we might have not continued but in an arranged marriage, you try your best in spite of the shortcomings. So, the affair and her behavior since the discovery fit the expected profile.
My sister says "This is what you got and make the best of it. She can only defend herself with lies and she lacks the psychological sophistication to be open."

With all this, I am not sure she is incapable of seeing this or understanding this. She is capable intellectually but not that good in self-awareness or objectivity.

I am treated for PTSD but PTSD does not have good treatment options. Not saying nothing works but a reasonable relief is not common. The main issue with PTSD is the trigger and I am living with the trigger.

This is why you need to go no contact with her and move on to someone else.

The more I listen to you guys, and the more I think it through, she has lied consistently from the beginning. Yet - it is understandable.

With all due respect, no it isn't. A person fearing consequences is understandable but justifying years of actual lying isn't. Be very careful my man or you may end up quickly talk yourself into justifying being abused.

Dear Rodeo: Thank you. I have justified so many shitty things thrown at me. My side of the family thinks that she controls me and plays me. About that, later...
As I mentioned, I choose to be honest for personal reasons, but it does not mean I am incapable of forgiving dishonesty and lying. I am also uncomfortable with the concept of revenge. No matter how angry I am at her, it would break my heart to see her suffer. I am hesitant to ask her to leave even today, and I am honest about that with her. Does it disincentivize her? It is OK. If I can not be honest with myself, I won't be able to handle anything. The only reason I can justify separation is that she is a trigger and her presence is making my PTSD worse.

I also question whether I am not seeing the reality and I am also going through the slippery slope of explaining and justifying her behavior because I love her and try not to lose her. I am also unclear about the future without her. I am confused and indecisive. I am also afraid of facing the nastiness of divorce. And, I fear that she will make my life difficult somehow from a distance.

My biggest personal ego issue is "how did I fail in my marriage." I do not blame myself for the affair but I did think that I could handle the after-effects of the affair. I question whether I did it well.

Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid. Yes, but debts are often forgiven.

Physician here (Ob). Husband is a stay at home dad, he cheated ten years ago with several young women (all around age 20-25). I am now 46, he is 52.

I chose to stay. I also have ptsd. I also value my honesty.

You married an immature person who cannot function past the fantasy in her underwear. I’m sorry for that, and I share that discomfort, as well.

They are immature people. I lost a lot of respect for people in general after the pandemic. I have literally had patient family members accusing me of faking that their pregnant relative had Covid for money. SMH. People kind of suck. And the WS continuing to be an uninsightful person shouldn’t shock me, but it does. I just expected better, but that’s on me.

Lower your expectations. She is flawed and immature. Don’t be shocked. And stop searching for truth. She is unaware of what truth even is anymore. She probably never knew.

I’m staying married for many reasons. I don’t want to coparent my kids. And I feel relatively sure my kids are better off with me 100% in the picture.

Make your decision on what’s best for you. But don’t be immature yourself, hoping that you’ll find true love if you left her. It doesn’t exist. It was a lie, and we’ve all been fooled. Expect to be disappointed.

I miss all of the conferences, too.

I will keep it short. You are not new in this forum. You said you are a psychiatrist. You are just over analyzing your situation. I bet every time you wanted to leave, you overanalyzed, convouluted your decision making process. You are already late if you are still planning to leave. If you stay you would forever be self torturing yourself thats for certain.

Balbichi: I agree. I wish I could be less analytical. I still could not wrap my head around the idea of leaving. Yes. I do regret the 14 years of misery but I am not sure things would have been better had I left. The idea of marriage and true love is a bit different culturally for me. Spouse is seen as part of the family and we love our family members no matter what.
Write or wrong, I feel responsible for keeping the family intact. I chose to forgive and take some pain. But now, I see what is happening to me and I am helpless.

I welcome all your thoughts and advice.

Professional?

The wife you have has a past hit of being very cruel to you

My husband tried to cheat, the first time, 30 years ago. I only found out in 2017 that she declined his offer of sex. She told me.

I’m a workaholic, admittedly.

I also abhor deceit

I remain married/legally tied to my spouse to maintain my health insurance through his military retirement. My health is poor and I am expensive to insure

Instead of naturally assuming they are being truthful, why not question everything they say? Even the simplest statements?

Yeah, the reconciliation thing didn’t work out for me either

Someday my life will end, and I will still not know what he did exactly. I refuse to let his selfish actions steer the course of my life

I did have two children, now adults. He painted me to be the person who won’t forgive

PTSD? Yes. A waste of a really nice, honest, loyal wife

There is more to us than what they did

OP,

What you've been doing the past 14 years has not worked for you.

Whatever you choose to do now and going forward needs to be DIFFERENT than what you've done to this point in time.

If you don't do things differently, handle things regarding this differently than you have, then you know what to expect and that's more of the same.

I don't see why you don't tell her she has to take a poly.

You want the truth but she won't give it to you.

Why should she? For HER, NOT giving you the truth has worked for her all these years.

That it bothers you and affects you greatly doesn't concern her, her actions have demonstrated that to you over and over for about a decade and a half now.

From a 30,000 foot perspective, you have 3 main choices.

1 Keep doing what you've been doing... though I strongly suggest you don't do this.

2 Just end it with her. Love is NOT enough, it never has been and it never will be. More on that in a bit.

3 Just accept it, forget about it and live the rest of your life. Right now, you're not really living, you're in limbo, upset, sad, hurting etc. You're existing and not really living.

Love is great. Love is necessary. Love is beautiful. But love is not enough.

In our culture, many of us idealize love. We see it as some lofty cure-all for all of life’s problems. Our movies and our stories and our history all celebrate it as life’s ultimate goal, the final solution for all of our pain and struggle. And because we idealize love, we overestimate it. As a result, our relationships pay a price.

When we believe that "all we need is love," then like Lennon, we’re more likely to ignore fundamental values such as respect, humility, and commitment towards the people we care about. After all, if love solves everything, then why bother with all the other stuff—all of the hard stuff?

But if, like Reznor, we believe that "love is not enough," then we understand that healthy relationships require more than pure emotion or lofty passions. We understand that there are things more important in our lives and our relationships than simply being in love. And the success of our relationships hinges on these deeper and more important values.

Many people love their partner but don't like them.

Many people love their partner but they aren't in love with them.

Many people love folks who aren't good for them as love is funny that way.

One more time for emphasis:

"there are things more important in our lives and our relationships than simply being in love"

The next line says why this is so.

"the success of our relationships hinges on these deeper and more important values"

I'm all for love, it's wonderful but so much more than love is needed. People also need to love themselves too.

My mom cheated on my dad, badly, and many times. They've been divorced over 16 years now. He still loves her, a great deal. He's had to tone me down several times.

Now, even though he loves my mom a lot, to this day, he has not spoken to her, seen her or heard her voice since 2013.

She broke him. He knows she isn't good for him, that seeing her will hurt him so he doesn't. He lives about 1,000 miles away and my mom doesn't even have his cellphone number.

For 25 years he tried to keep things together. Why? His mom and dad divorced when he was 2 years old. He NEVER wanted his children to come from a broken family. He worked hard, did well, my mom stayed at home with us 3 children. We had a nice life. He was a good man, kind, decent.

My mom is feisty, hard charging, aggressive, mean, plays the victim, she's always right, she's greedy and materialistic and those are her good qualities.

My dad bent over backwards for us, for her, doing so much for everyone. Even though my mom stayed at home full time, he did all the laundry, for us children too. He bathed all 3 of us each night and they both put all to bed each night. He cleaned the tubs and the showers. He did the yard work, the garbage, moved everything for her when she wanted to rearrange things, which was often. He was her manual labor for all of her projects, of which there were many. She was crafty, she made things, built things and she needed his help, a lot. She'd even wake him up at like 1:30 a.m. to have him come down and help her in the garage even though his alarm clock was going to go off at 4:45 a.m. for work. That didn't matter to her, she wanted help and my dad never said no.

My mom wanted her parents to live behind us on our 40 acres so they gave her parents 2 acres and they built behind our house.

My mom's older brother had a child who needed help with schooling. This was when he was 12 years old. My mom had him move in with us for a year. They lived over 1,500 miles away so he lived with us as he couldn't home.

My dad coached little league, youth soccer, taught children's bible classes with my mom at our church, he went on cub scout camping trips with my oldest brother.

To my dad's way of thinking, he needed to keep his family together, to do for them, to provide for them and he was doing all of that, he did a great job of that.

My mom, on the other hand, was not doing a great job of any of those things. She pushed, she badgered, she put him down and when he struck a nerve with her she gave him the silent treatment, sometimes for 2 and 3 days.

My mom was/is full of double standards. She disrespected my father so often.

My dad trudged on, doing what he thought he should, trying to keep the family together.

Sadly, sometimes what needs to be done is breaking the family up. Love isn't enough. My dad still loves my mom. They met each other at 14 and were together the next 25 years, married over 16 of those years.

My dad stayed too long with my mother. He was a shell of himself. He gave and gave of himself. He was being taken advantage of and used and he justified it all to himself as doing what he needed to be doing, to keep the family together.

He eventually realized that keeping the family together was doing MORE damage to it than breaking it up would do.

He did so much for my mom's parents, cutting their grass, cleaning things in their house.

She needs to take a poly.

Pro

I’ll chime in here. If you are intent on not leaving her then you must learn to live with the situation. Some say that EDMR is a useful tool to help keep obsessive thoughts from being able to lead a somewhat happy life while still knowing about the affair. So perhaps you might try that type of therapy.

However, I will tell you, that is not what I would do if in your shoes.

I instead would be very honest with her about the situation. I could not live with someone whose heart belongs to another.

So I would tell her something to the effect of:

While our marriage was arranged, I have fallen in love with you as my wife and partner. However I cannot stay with someone who does not return these emotions back to me.

Your affair showed me that your love belongs to another. Not me. You even admit as much in your defense of having the affair saying it was emotional with him. I wish you were as emotional with me and would show it.

I think your parents wronged you by not allowing you to pursue this dream. I understand why they did not, but thaat does not make it right for them to keep you from your true love.

Since I love you, I want the most happiness for you. And therefore I am letting you go pursue your love with him. I cannot be in a marriage where your heart lies elsewhere.

You had passion enough for you to go far and beyond what you have ever done to pursue me. You offered to become a maid for your family just so you could be with him.

And beyond that, you protect your thoughts of him because you won’t even be honest with me that you worked to get a high end hotel room so you could be physically intimate with him.

All this shows me that you love him, and not me.

I deserve to be loved and more importantly I deserve to be SHOWN that I am loved as much as you have worked hard to show him that you love him, thru your deceit and lies you told me and our family while you worked so hard to be with him.

So I am releasing you from obligation to me. I will find a lawyer that will help us dissolve this marriage and you will be free to find your happiness.

If you someday figure out that I am actually that person you love and are in love with, then I hope you could show me and prove it to me as you have done so for him time and time again over the years.

It would start with the full truth about what you felt and intended to do with him all those years ago. And it would follow with you working harder to show me I am truly the one for you, that you have as much or more passion for me than you ever had for him and proving you’d be a safe partner to me if we were to try again as a couple.

But I will not hold my breath for that. I need to find that person who loves me for being me. I can never be him, and since you cannot look in my eyes and be truthful that you don’t see in me what you see in him, then it’s best we move on now, as much as it breaks my heart to do so, than to continue to live with you wishing I was someone else.

I promise to be as good a coparent to our children as I can be. I wish you every chance to find that happiness you are looking for. I’ll be working with a lawyer to amicably end our marriage as best as I can"

Pro, I know this is impossibly hard to do. But what you are looking for, I believe, cannot be found by just continuing to hammer at her to please be honest with you.

I believe you need her to finally see, realize, and actually prove that you are the love of her life all along, and not him.

However the only way for that to happen unfortunately is for you to take the chance of letting her go. Sure, she may run to the AP and give it a try. But if that’s the case, then you know it was the right thing to do to release her and let you find the one you were meant to be with.

But if she does finally put in the work to be the person you need as a partner, who goes out of her way for you more than anyone else in her life, it will be at that point that you finally have a partner who puts you as the most important person in her life, like you would do for her.

Those are just my thoughts. If there is something there for you to use in interacting with your wife, great, I’m glad.

If not, then feel free to ignore and move on to the next advisor here. These ideas are all for you to use to create your own plan of action.

I wish you well.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 9:16 AM, Saturday, April 30th]

I wouldn't expect change from her after all this time gone by. If you can't let this stop worrying you, it's best to move on for your own peace of mind.

Just throwing this out there...

Is it possible that what she emotionally connected to was the fantasy, past and present. The boy she wasn't allowed to have, the fleeting moment of youth when she considered not being restricted by culture or parents. Things like that tend to take on a nice glow as we age, pure romantic fantasy of course, but we've all done it. It's not so much HIM but who she was then, what she wanted, the reality of her actual life (subjecting to parental and cultural control).

He pops back into her life and those feelings, that rosy glowed time of her life is what she feels. She engages in the fantasy. Perhaps never intending on acting on it because that would in fact ruin her real life but what harm is the fantasy (in her mind).

Perhaps when she actually saw him it was a sharp intrusion of reality. He was not the boy of her youth, he was not worth risking her real life, she was not physically attracted to him. And also, perhaps she never really had the guts to do anything.

Isn't that possible?

TheEND: You are correct. I see it the same way. However, I am bothered by her defensive posture and the hindsight bias. She routinely finds a reason to justify her mistake, even for small things. This is an issue before the affair and things unrelated to the affair. I do think she has a way of finding a reason to justify. Is it a lack of courage or a defense mechanism to fight her inadequacy? Either way, it is not helping.

So let’s do a thought experiment. Let’s say after 14 years she finally says, "Yes you were right all along. We planned a 5 day sex fest and would have done it had I not been caught." So now she admits and you have achieved that much.

This helps the marriage? You feel better? Then what? Another 14 years of worrying this sore tooth? Or do you decide it is over as your title says.

What is your endgame here? If you want out now, that’s ok. What is it about pulling that final thread that will make you change your mind?

To me I would tell her

"I want a marriage with someone who holds me and only me in their heart as their most important person. It’s clear since you won’t give me honesty even though you gave so much to the other man, that I am not that person for you.

I love you and want you to be happy. So I’m letting you go be with him. I no longer hold you to your marriage vows and I will work to legally end the marriage that your infidelity destroyed.

If you want to be with me and only me, show it. Give me the truth instead of ridiculous lies about what you would have done with a man you live in a luxury hotel for 5 days.

I won’t wait around for your response. I’m going to meet with a lawyer this week. If you want to talk, let me know. Otherwise your silence and continue gaslighting me will be your answer. I need the same level of respect you gave your lover… if not higher. I do t think you have it in you to deliver that.

This breaks my heart but I won’t be with someone who doesn’t hold me in her heart as her true partner."

Then let her come to you. Stop pursuing her. You have to be willing to lose the marriage to save it.

you take the blame to keep the marriage, you divert the subject, you simplify your wife,

none of them hide the fact that you hurt yourself. your trauma gets worse over the years.

I'm curious about the advice you give to your patients in your situation.

Your wife is not the kind of person you describe. she is someone who knows how to control you and acts as she pleases, knowing that you can never let her go. You talk about analysis, but there is a lot of dissonance in what they say. what? for what?

You should start treating yourself.

Hi OP. Sorry you're hurting.

There are three things struck me from this thread

1)

I am triggered into crying spells often.

For heavens sake man, look at the situation for what it is - your lying, cheating wife wrote tawdry messages to some loser, ex-boyfriend. There are things in life worth crying over. This? No.

2) Life's too short, Let It Go.

We generally handle it well as long as we do not talk about the affair.

OK, so stop talking about the affair. You've have 14 years to worry this to death. You and your wife at a log jam, nothings moving. Enough mate. As The1stWife posted in this thread "I stopped living in the past. Best thing I could have done." My own personal experience I quit bringing up my wife's nonsense and let it go, I'm pretty happy, my marriage is pretty good, life is pretty good.

3) Like most cheaters she's lying to you about "never wanting to touch her boyfriend". Nonsense. She would have fucked him sideways at the 5 star hotel.

However, you don't think she's spent any time with him. Can we give a cheating wife some props? You've described some (many) ways she's worked to make a good marriage to you in other respects. She deserves credit for this mate.

She's stubborn as hell though about admitting her intentions with the ex. Of course you have the right to separate if her cheating's a deal breaker. If I did the math right, you've been married 19 years, no one is going to criticize you for staying married.