SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

It has a familiar ring to it: it was illicit, exciting, fun, sexually charged, selfishly self gratifying, and no one will ever even find out.

And now there’s the revelation that because the BS is sticking around for the hard and not kicking the WS to the curb, the WS now miraculously realizes that their BS truly loves them after all.

Can you believe?

It has a familiar ring to it: it was illicit, exciting, fun, sexually charged, selfishly self gratifying, and no one will ever even find out.

And now there’s the revelation that because the BS is sticking around for the hard and not kicking the WS to the curb, the WS now miraculously realizes that their BS truly loves them after all.

Can you believe?

I do.

And it may well be my downfall.

Aristotle said in his Nichomachean ethics that it is ‘the mark of an educated man to seek in each type of inquiry only as much precision or exactness as the nature of the subject matter allows’.

I am not sure you are getting closer to the truth about her motivations here?

Infidelity is messy.

I suggest focus on living your own life, loving your kids, and checking her boundaries are adhered to.

[This message edited by straightup at 10:41 PM, Friday, May 6th]

"I do.

And it may well be my downfall."

You are a good guy dealing with big pile of shit thrown in your face by someone you love/loved.
Many of us walked the same road. Most of the WW didn't have it in them to heal themselves, yet alone the marriage and their BS.

Eventually you may lose patience and it will be up to her to pull the weight, not sure from what you say she will do that.

Eventually you may lose patience and it will be up to her to pull the weight, not sure from what you say she will do that.

I really don’t know how it’s possible, but this community manages some of the most timely posts I’ve ever seen.

We had a really rough night. I was feeling down, as I have for the last few days, and she was as well. I wanted to break from conversation, but she pushed because she wanted to get to the bottom of what was bothering me.

We talked for a couple of hours and it was the most dejecting conversation we’ve had in awhile. All I saw in her was pure narcissism. And someone who may really still not see how much of our marital problems were her fault. Every example of something she puts on me is either a misrepresentation of the truth that I can easily point out or an example of something that bothered her but she never spoke to me about—an in turn, I feel horrible about it making her feel bad so long.

We just went in circles and I told her how I felt like she still had a wall up and wasn’t being open and vulnerable—just constant deflections from her.

The nail in the coffin was when she pressed me for an example of her being closed off still. Last night, she told me she wanted to be more open to things with me sexually going forward, so I gave some suggestions. One of them was masterbating for me—like all of the suggestions I gave, she said no. (Of note, she has never masterbated in her life, even alone, but she did send a brief video to AP of her masterbating during the affair.)

So I pointed that out as an example of her wall still being up.

She replied: "You want to know why I said no? It’s because [AP] asked me to do that for him and it hits a little too close to home."

I said, "But you did do that for him!"

Her, "No, I was just pretending in the video."

In that moment I was just so incredibly hurt—not only did she still have a wall up about relatively mild sexual requests, but her reasoning was that it was something she did for AP, so she didn’t want to do it for me.

I’m looking to paint over all the shit from the affair and she’s looking to keep things separated still.

And there was still so much anger in her tonight; likely a reaction to my anger. It was all so incredibly unproductive and disheartening.

So you’re right, I feel my patience wearing thin and I have zero confidence she’ll pick up the slack.

All of these things you need to bring up in MC so she can be called out on it. If she’s being honest, she should bring it up in her personal IC and you should get feedback on what her IC said.

All of these things you need to bring up in MC so she can be called out on it. If she’s being honest, she should bring it up in her personal IC and you should get feedback on what her IC said.

Agreed on both.

She also told me last night that her wall is sometimes still up because she doesn’t want to return to a life of being belittled by me—it’s like she’s still playing up an absurd lie. The "belittlement" she felt was never more than me pointing out flaws in her sometimes thoughtless, careless opinions. It’s minor disagreements on very mundane things she’s talking about.

And if it was so deeply affecting her, she had every opportunity to tell me. And we both agree that moving forward, we will communicate on it to ensure I know how she feels. But she won’t let go of the past resentment because it makes her feel like she’s taking too much blame for the failed relationship—she’s more concerned about jockeying for position in our new relationship than being with me at all. She just won’t let herself accept how much she fucked up our relationship all before she destroyed it with the affair. So much of this lands on her.

We have work trips coming early in the week, so we’ll have about three days apart. I think it’ll be good.

All of it lands on her. All of her poor choices are on her.

Again, this comes back to her complete lack of empathy. You're trying. She isn't. She is going through the motions, maybe. But she is absolutely not willing to see herself for who she really is. If she can't see it she certainly can't change it. She is acting like she is waiting to get out of trouble.

She won't let go of resentment and she is really making it look like she wants the relationship simply so she isn't the bad guy. You're making this hard for her by expecting her to actually care and change.

[This message edited by clouds777 at 7:23 PM, Saturday, May 7th]

I just wanted to touch on this part of your post:

The nail in the coffin was when she pressed me for an example of her being closed off still. Last night, she told me she wanted to be more open to things with me sexually going forward, so I gave some suggestions. One of them was masterbating for me—like all of the suggestions I gave, she said no. (Of note, she has never masterbated in her life, even alone, but she did send a brief video to AP of her masterbating during the affair.)

If there is one thing I’ve learned from SI, neither one of you should rely on sex as a cornerstone of your healing process. If you stick around SI along enough, you will see how easy it is for the bedroom to become a war zone. There are threads that can go on for weeks that debate about what BSs are and aren’t entitled to (sexually) from their WSs.

First, improving sexual openness and intimacy requires trust, which you don’t have. Until that trust is rebuilt, you won’t be able to help comparing yourself with AP or wondering if she was really enjoying herself or just faking it.

Second, if sex is lackluster, it will only fuel your anger and sense of emasculation. If the sex blows your mind, then you will get pissed about why it wasn’t like this before the affair.

Third, a lot of WWs feel like need to engage in performative sex in order to prove their love and desire for their husband. If she’s not that great at it, you will immediately sense her insincerity and feel worse than before. But even if she is a sex goddess, she might end up setting a bar that’s too high to reach in the long-term. Worse, she will not make much of an effort in other aspects of your relationships if she thinks keeping you satisfied in the bedroom is sufficient enough.

Lastly— this might be the hardest pill to swallow— your wife needs to get over the affair partner. I don’t care what assurances she’s given you about how she feels, if it was an intense and passionate affair, it will take time for her to completely sever her attachment to him. I don’t doubt that she is sincere when she says she does not want to masturbate for you because it reminds her of him. The less she thinks of him, especially when she’s with you, the better.

Is it fair that he might’ve gotten sex acts that were denied to you? No, of course not… but there is absolutely nothing that’s fair about being a BS. Reconciliation requires a tremendous amount of humility and grace from both partners, which is why I think true R is so rare.

While sex cannot be the cornerstone of rebuilding, it has to be a component, in my opinion.

I think I suggested this to someone else, but perhaps at some point i suggested it to you as well.

If I were in your position one of many requirements for recovery would be to amp what she did for the AP ten fold.

So instead of asking for suggestions, ask her to put it to paper. List out each and every sex act that she did with the AP and tell her she needs to create a plan to multiply it all by a factor of ten. And she should be creative. Not just doing what she did for the AP ten times, but things that are more sensuous or daring or exciting.

As I said, this is not what completes a recovery, but without it, I am not sure I could stay with someone who would so callously give away to a complete jackass what was to be shared only with her husband and life partner.

Tell me, did she have suggestions? We’re there any of yours she agreed with?

Why even bring it up if she were gonna say no to everything?

[This message edited by Stevesn at 8:34 PM, Saturday, May 7th]

If there is one thing I’ve learned from SI, neither one of you should rely on sex as a cornerstone of your healing process. If you stick around SI along enough, you will see how easy it is for the bedroom to become a war zone. There are threads that can go on for weeks that debate about what BSs are and aren’t entitled to (sexually) from their WSs.

First, improving sexual openness and intimacy requires trust, which you don’t have. Until that trust is rebuilt, you won’t be able to help comparing yourself with AP or wondering if she was really enjoying herself or just faking it.

Second, if sex is lackluster, it will only fuel your anger and sense of emasculation. If the sex blows your mind, then you will get pissed about why it wasn’t like this before the affair.

Third, a lot of WWs feel like need to engage in performative sex in order to prove their love and desire for their husband. If she’s not that great at it, you will immediately sense her insincerity and feel worse than before. But even if she is a sex goddess, she might end up setting a bar that’s too high to reach in the long-term. Worse, she will not make much of an effort in other aspects of your relationships if she thinks keeping you satisfied in the bedroom is sufficient enough.

Lastly— this might be the hardest pill to swallow— your wife needs to get over the affair partner. I don’t care what assurances she’s given you about how she feels, if it was an intense and passionate affair, it will take time for her to completely sever her attachment to him. I don’t doubt that she is sincere when she says she does not want to masturbate for you because it reminds her of him. The less she thinks of him, especially when she’s with you, the better.

Is it fair that he might’ve gotten sex acts that were denied to you? No, of course not… but there is absolutely nothing that’s fair about being a BS. Reconciliation requires a tremendous amount of humility and grace from both partners, which is why I think true R is so rare.

Sex is not a cornerstone of our healing process, but it has certainly be an important part—it’s the often one bright spot in a sea of pain.

I agree that we need trust before we can really explore our sexuality again, but she’s not letting trust grow back because she’s so walled-off—and again, she claims she’s walled-off because she’s fearful of returning to our old relationship. Personally, I think that’s bull shit—there is no more old relationship; she needs to decide if she wants to move forward and grow with me together, not attempt to negotiate terms.

And we’re having great sex right now—and perhaps it’s somewhat performative from her at times—but it’s also deeper than that at most times. She’s very much enjoying it and feels connected and loved.

As for AP, I’m not entirely sure how she feels about him. I feel like she has gotten over him very quickly. She went from feeling emotionally connected, expecting a longtime affair, to going cold turkey overnight.

She claims her indifference to him is from the last conversations they had on March 16. She felt like her life was completely fucked and he joked that she wouldn’t be able to make it to the next PTA dinner (set for early April). He also was entirely focused on protecting his insulated world from the affair and was looking to ensure I wouldn’t tell his wife. He showed her no empathy in that moment—not even sympathy—and she knew immediately that he didn’t feel the same emotional attachment she did. I think those first few days hurt her—and she still wanted closure—but by the two-week mark, it really seemed clear he was entirely out of her mind.

As for why certain sex acts seem off limits to her, I suspect it’s because she just is exhausted thinking about the affair and wants to remove everything about it from her mind. I don’t agree with that approach though—I don’t want her burying taboo thoughts deep down only to be uncovered in several months. I want to burn the whole thing down right now.

And lastly, I don’t care about fairness at all—that’s not why I’m requesting sex acts. For our entire relationship, I gave her space sexually. I didn’t know what was happening in her head and she wouldn’t tell me. I never pushed her; I wanted her to move at her pace. But now that she went out and committed hedonistic sex acts with another man, I have no more patience for her bull shit. She is either into me or she’s not—no more games. If I’m not who she wants, I want to know today. I’m not granting her any more space to figure things out.

Why even bring it up if she were gonna say no to everything?

Good question. One I plan to probe further. Though I realize it’s a premature question in some ways. I’m looking to connect with her completely—open communication and complete transparency. To me it seems like it should be so easy—I already do that with her—but for her she still has a wall up.

Today I provided her with three demands for me to recommit to her. I feel these are prerequisites for us to move forward and for open commutation moving forward:

1. See yourself for who you really are; accept blame for how you sabotaged our relationship with narcissism and resentment, and ultimately destroyed it—only then can you begin to work on changing yourself.

2. Demonstrate empathy toward me in everything you do and say.

3. Leap of Faith: Recommit to me for the rest of your life, without conditions of your own.

We‘ve had a busy day dealing with the kids, but she already wrote out a response to the first demand—we’ll likely discuss the others tonight.

I have and will continue to accept blame for what I have done. So much so the grief consumes me from day to day. I was so incredibly selfish in my acts and what I did. Everything just makes me want to break down. I can’t look at the kids without crying and I feel so much shame and devastation. What I did to you is just unforgivable. You’re completely destroyed. I destroyed you in the worst way possible with my betrayal and resentments. How does one even look in the mirror after all of this….she doesn’t. There are days where I can function normally and then something sets off a tidal wave. The worse part is I knew I was acting selfishly and did it anyway. I chose to enter into the affair, I chose to continue it. It was a choice. An awful choice. I am not even sure where to start. The only thing I can do is grieve. So incredibly angry with my self that I was so destructive, I feel incredibly isolated. Reading stories to the kids at night sets me off, I know I’m such a horrible person.

What Steven’s said!

What she wrote IMO is excellent. I think when she has time to reflect on her A, snd past behavior in the M, whether in response to one of your questions, or on her own, she seems to do a good job.

However, it appears that in the moment, in conversation, she is unable to tap into that empathy and instead gets defensive and angry. This is part of her ingrained, flawed personality.

IC should help her fix this defect over the longer term. However, in the meantime I think you both need an effective strategy to deal with your back snd forth conversations about the A and M.

I think this is a good subject to address at MC; strategies for you to bring up your feelings, hurt, anger and disappointment without your WW acting out defensively.

In sum, you need to ask your MC to help you develop a framework for your conversations related to the M and A, when you’re not at MC, in which both you are satisfied. A house cannot be built without a solid foundation.

I think you are getting too didactic and she is wallowing in sackcloth and ashes. You two need to sit in chairs facing each other, knees touching, look each other in the eyes, hold hands and talk. You need to tell her what it did to you physically when you learned of the A. I mean in detail. Every physical pain, every bodily function that went haywire, how your brain stopped working properly….all of it. Then she can talk about what made her decide to do this to your marriage. She has to feel your pain. Empathy is when we actually "get" it. Writing is fine but you are married to each other. Actual discussions are how treaties are made. Surely two partners can talk without anger, guilt or other negative emotions. She has to fix herself but you can’t be hanging on for a long time while she does it. You need something to bank on.

Cooley2here - I 100 percent agree, but docs WW is simply not there yet - she doesn’t posses the skills. However, doc certainly does.

Until WW gets there with time and IC, I think coming up with a interim plan to communicate within a framework that works for both of them is the way to go.

Once WW learns the skills, I think they can have more effective interpersonal conversation.

I also think WW would communicate in person a bit better if perhaps doc laid out a topic or two ahead of time to discuss, so when the conversation occurs WW will have been able to digest it beforehand and perhaps even rehearsed what snd how she will communicate her response. Doc had told us on numerous occasions that his WW from the get go has always been an ineffective communicator.

She’s obviously immature and simply cannot be relied upon to effectively communicate with Doc in the moment.

What Steven’s said!

What she wrote IMO is excellent. I think when she has time to reflect on her A, snd past behavior in the M, whether in response to one of your questions, or on her own, she seems to do a good job.

However, it appears that in the moment, in conversation, she is unable to tap into that empathy and instead gets defensive and angry. This is part of her ingrained, flawed personality.

IC should help her fix this defect over the longer term. However, in the meantime I think you both need an effective strategy to deal with your back snd forth conversations about the A and M.

I think this is a good subject to address at MC; strategies for you to bring up your feelings, hurt, anger and disappointment without your WW acting out defensively.

In sum, you need to ask your MC to help you develop a framework for your conversations related to the M and A, when you’re not at MC, in which both you are satisfied. A house cannot be built without a solid foundation.

Excellent feedback. Thank you!

I was acting selfishly and did it anyway. I chose to enter into the affair, I chose to continue it. It was a choice. An awful choice. I am not even sure where to start. The only thing I can do is grieve.

This, if actually what she is feeling is a good statement. Up until the last line...
Right now "the only thing she can do is grieve", but how can she move past that. On her own or with help from a IC. YOu can't drag her thru R It has to be her doing it, not following your lead. She may surprise you but she my go back to her old narc ways when the HB is over...

I’m looking to paint over all the shit from the affair and she’s looking to keep things separated still.

You've summarized your own thread of 36 pages in one sentence, and unfortunately, that's the impression I get as well, based on your reporting of your conversations with her.

And we’re having great sex right now—and perhaps it’s somewhat performative from her at times—but it’s also deeper than that at most times. She’s very much enjoying it and feels connected and loved.

I'm always skeptical every time I see these comments about "deep love and connections" developing suddenly post D-Day. To me, it always appears as if the little kid who ran away and returned, realized his home was so much more comforting than the world out there and he misses that old blanket, and relief just flooded over him. It could also be a clever tactic, maybe even an evolutionary one, employed by the WW to try and repair the damage they caused and ensure BHs stick around. I don't know, but these phrases like "deep love and connection" are thrown around by waywards so often, it sounds very superficial considering the egregious lengths these grown women went to in the course of their affairs. There's of course no way to empirically measure how genuine these claims are.

BTW, how all-consuming is all this analysis for you? How is your own mental state? If it's too exhausting, maybe take a breather from the analysis and just let her do the work. Keep enjoying the HB sex, "deep connection and love" and all.

This, if actually what she is feeling is a good statement. Up until the last line...
Right now "the only thing she can do is grieve", but how can she move past that. On her own or with help from a IC. YOu can't drag her thru R It has to be her doing it, not following your lead. She may surprise you but she my go back to her old narc ways when the HB is over...

Agreed entirely—she references her overwhelming grief often. It’s a pity party for herself and just entrenches her as grossly narcissistic. To the point where she often thinks I’m pitying her (I’m not) if I try yo comfort her, but that’s the lens she sees it through.

She’s in a wallowing depression over how she could be so stupid and can’t figure out how to pick herself back up. It’s purely work for her IC.

I think another revelation for her came last night—at one point I asked her if she thought she was AP’s whore or his lover.

She spent the day thinking about it and referencing back to it multiple times—she has full acceptance now that her "emotional connection" with him wasn’t there. And she knew all along she was his whore, but it hurt too much to think of it like that, so she convinced herself that he was a friend who cared about her.

That wall finally came down and worsened her depression and self-pity. She recognized she was used as a whore and discarded in seconds by him as something without any value. As other’s have mentioned, there are shades of "breaking up" there—she was rejected as a person by someone she cared about—and thought cared about her.

It calls into question her line of thinking throughout the entire affair because she sees how obvious it is now and claims to have realized it then, but forced it out of mind.

The "belittlement" she felt was never more than me pointing out flaws in her sometimes thoughtless, careless opinions. It’s minor disagreements on very mundane things she’s talking about.

She's the one who decides what your communications to her mean. She has told you that she interprets comments from you as belittling. In all probability, she does. Now, if she does feel belittled, it's probably because she belittles herself in your voice, but don't discount her comments, which outline a barrier between you that has to be dismantled.

My bet is that there's a kernel of truth in her interpretation of your comments.

I don't care about blame here. It doesn't matter how the barrier was built. What matter is that R may require dismantling int.

*****

Right now "the only thing she can do is grieve", but how can she move past that.

The way past grief is to feel enough grief to notice other feelings.

None of us can control another person's healing process. I guess that's part of what makes R difficult - you never know if your partner is doing the right work. Behavioral changes give a lot of clues, but you can't know waht's in the other person's mind.

Your W's grief might be productive. It might be self-protective. Time and behavior will tell.

*****

The MC W & I went through included parts of several sessions addressing my 'tone of voice', something my W complained about repeatedly over the years. When she heard that TOV, she got terrified. My TOV wasn't a cause of my W's A, but in retrospect I believe our MC saw it as a barrier to R; I agree. At first I didn't hear the TOV; then I could hear it but couldn't stop it. Finally I learned to use a different TOV, and I got much different responses from my W.

Note that I didn't change what I said; in fact, I said it more clearly. I didn't tone down my feelings or my expression of feelings; in fact, I expressed my feelings more clearly. I just changed my TOV - and my W stopped getting scared and started addressing the problem I was bringing up.

That was a pre-A problem that came up again after d-day. It had to be addressed for R to move on.